UEFA Euro 2008 Thread

[maximaz]

Can't watch qualifiers since I'm in US, so I have no idea how everything is going.

Can someone telle me how Italy is doing. Any changes in their squad? How is Totti looking?

Who is coaching Germany?

 

[Brother None]

Italy looks strong. Totti looks like he always does, really.

Italy is one of the favourites, but that's a "duh", being the reigning world champions.

Jogi Löw is the German coach. He coaches a lot like Klinsmann, so expect much the same team.

 

[maximaz]

Italy looks strong. Totti looks like he always does, really.

I don't know, he wasn't all he could be at the World Cup, It was a pretty underwhelming performance for him.

 

[Brother None]

To be honest, I think Totti is slightly overrated and was neither overwhelmed nor underwhelmed by him. He doesn't look to be in any better form than before, from what I've seen, but the team overall looks goods.

The only match I saw in full was Scotland-Italy, tho', maybe someone else has seen more.

 

[Serge 13]

I am an Azzuri fan so i hope they will win ! ...i also like the Dutch team and their Coach .
But personally ,i think this EM sucks VERY bad !
I mean look at the Groups . Both Group C and D suck.one of them is consisted of 3 favorites and the other one has 4 boring teams.

 

[maximaz]

To be honest, I think Totti is slightly overrated and was neither overwhelmed nor underwhelmed by him. He doesn't look to be in any better form than before, from what I've seen, but the team overall looks goods.

The only match I saw in full was Scotland-Italy, tho', maybe someone else has seen more.

Since his leg injury in 06, what I've seen of Totti has been pretty unimpressive, especially on WC o6, but before that he was friggin amazing. After I saw him playing in world cup 02, he became my favorite player. I was really hoping he'd get back and find his game again.

 

[Sander]

Bump.

So, it all starts in 2 weeks and most teams are starting to play their friendly matches, and sending in their final 23.

For me, The Netherlands is looking stronger (a lot stronger) than they were a couple of months ago, and although the Ukraine didn't put up much of a fight, today's match was pretty positive. I'd like to see the matches when Sneijder, Van Nistelrooy, Robben and Van Persie are available (which should be thursday).
No more 4-3-3 but a bit more withdrawn 4-5-1 (still a bit of a masked 4-3-3 but whatever) with very agressive backs and wing-midfielders that tend to stay away from the lines a bit more.

Sorry, BN, but it seems workhorse Kuyt is still going to Austria and Switzerland. Hopefully Van Persie will play most of the matches on the right side, though. I hope Landzaat gets the boot, though. He hasn't been the same player he used to be since he left AZ.


But I don't think they're a real contender yet.
I'm pulling for outsider Russia to go far (Hiddink always manages to pull out something special)

But honestly, I expect Spain to go very far (even though the madman in charge decided to leave Raul outside the squad), and I think Germany has a decent shot, if they play as well as they did in the last few games of the past World Cup.

Italy's squad is too old and lacking vigour, key players from 2 years ago are missing, and catenaccio is terrible.

Also, I'm pulling for Cristiano Ronaldo to make some huge blunder and put himself to shame. The kid's annoying. I was pulling for Man U (gogo Van der Sar) last week, but was still cheering when he fucked up his penalty.

So ehm, yeah, my group outcome predictions:

Group A
1. Portugal
- No way around it really, they're better than all the other teams put together basically.
2. Czech Republic
- Obviously. Decent side, but not solid enough to beat Portugal
3. Turkey
- Because Switzerland has no chance
4. Switzerland
- What happened to Johann Vogel?

Group B
1. Germany
- Because they've got the best players, and the second best coach
2. Poland
- Because they've got the second-best players, but the best coach. Gogo Beenhakker. They might even win the group on a good day.
3. Croatia
- Tough team, but not tough enough
4. Austria
- Ehm, yeah, pretty obvious

Group C
1. Italy
- This group is obviously closest, but I think Italy is going to go on as they always do: with defensive football and the occasional goal, still squeezing out wins from each match
2. The Netherlands
- Provided that Van Basten can forge the players into a solid squad, we've potentially got the strongest offensive line-up (except maybe Spain), the midfield is very, very strong and we've got the best keeper in the world. The only worrisome part is the defense, although Heitinga has had an absolutely stellar season and the wingbacks are pretty solid (especially Ooijer).
3. France
- France is not going to make it, unless Henry can find his former Arsenal form and a few other players manage to step up. Ribery, Makelele and Diarra are basically the only solid players, maybe Gallas. Somehow I always see some infighting (mainly amongst keepers) in the French squad, and I loathe Domenech for some reason.
4. Romania
- Decent team, and even though I think Chivu and Lobont are pretty awesome, the team just doesn't have the quality, especially in this group.

Group D
1. Spain
- EVen without Raul, they're very strong and have the absolute strongest line-up in my mind. Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Xabi Alonso, De la Red, Fabregas, Iniesta, Silva, Xavi, Torres, Villa. Nope, unstoppable unless madman Aragones manages to feck it up.
2. Russia
- Hiddink is insane, Zenit won the UEFA Cup with mostly Russian players, they're going to make it. Not strong enough to beat Spain, though.
3. Sweden
- Decent squad, and could well do better, especially if Ibrahimovic has some of his brilliant moments, even though he's an asstard.
4. Greece
- Much older, but still the same coach. Haven't performed at all in the past 4 years. Probably going to end up a disappointment.
3.
Linkage:
Match Schedule
Teams

 

[Brother None]

Sorry, BN, but it seems workhorse Kuyt is still going to Austria and Switzerland. Hopefully Van Persie will play most of the matches on the right side, though. I hope Landzaat gets the boot, though. He hasn't been the same player he used to be since he left AZ.

I've always had a hard time disliking Kuijt, because of my Feyenoord-heart, and I've been turning around on him since he changed positions in Liverpool. I don't like him as a pinch-hitter or striker - you know I never did - but to be honest, his physical form and hard-working attitude are pretty unique in today's nansy-pansy football world.

Even our defensive midfielders don't have the strength they should. Arguably, the only player aside from Kuijt to show a real dedication and excellent physical form is - and I hate to say this since I hate the dude - Heitinga.

I don't know what Kuijt will add in the end. He's an all-rounder that can play many positions, and I've been tempted to say he should be tossed into the rightback or wingback position since we don't have anyone of exceptional quality for there. Siding with Ooijer, Heitinga and de Cler or van Bronckhorst, we'd have a defensive line with little defensive capability but an excellent and constant push forwards.

But yeah, Kuijt is no replacement for van Persie on the right. No one is. Though arguably you could make the line behind the striker Sneijder - van Persie - Kuijt. Sneijder plays left in Real Madrid even though we think of him as a real #10, van Persie and van der Vaart are both really good as ghost-strikers or #10s, and Kuijt is a workhorse. 'course the problem then would be one of disbalance, with teams like Italy simply slashing out Sneijder and van Persie by focusing on them, something they wouldn't dare if Robben or van der Vaart were also on the field.

Tough call, tough call.

I'm pulling for outsider Russia to go far (Hiddink always manages to pull out something special)

The Russian league has been growing massively, but their youth-training hasn't professionalized enough. You can tell in someone like Arshavin, who just rolls around in talent but lacks the maturity a good feeder club should bring - Zenit-2 is not a good feeder club.

Still...potential.

Also, I'm pulling for Cristiano Ronaldo to make some huge blunder and put himself to shame. The kid's annoying. I was pulling for Man U (gogo Van der Sar) last week, but was still cheering when he fucked up his penalty.

The fuck?

Please don't steal my lines. Though I guess hatred of Christiano Ronaldo and most of the Portuguese team is well inbred in the Dutch by now. They might be one of the most impopular international teams, for us.

4. Romania
- Decent team, and even though I think Chivu and Lobont are pretty awesome, the team just doesn't have the quality, especially in this group.

I think you are underselling Romania by quite a bit.

Look, Group C is basically a coin toss. Each of the teams has the quality to blank out any of the other teams, so it depends on form. Italy is the only team on whose form you can depend no matter what, and if we look at the 3 others, Romania is probably strongest in form and dominance.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if this teams ends as Italy-Romania. But equally, I wouldn't surprised if it ends France-Netherlands either.

 

[Sander]

I've always had a hard time disliking Kuijt, because of my Feyenoord-heart, and I've been turning around on him since he changed positions in Liverpool. I don't like him as a pinch-hitter or striker - you know I never did - but to be honest, his physical form and hard-working attitude are pretty unique in today's nansy-pansy football world.

Even our defensive midfielders don't have the strength they should. Arguably, the only player aside from Kuijt to show a real dedication and excellent physical form is - and I hate to say this since I hate the dude - Heitinga.

I don't know what Kuijt will add in the end. He's an all-rounder that can play many positions, and I've been tempted to say he should be tossed into the rightback or wingback position since we don't have anyone of exceptional quality for there. Siding with Ooijer, Heitinga and de Cler or van Bronckhorst, we'd have a defensive line with little defensive capability but an excellent and constant push forwards.

Heitinga's pretty solid as a defender, though. Ooijer isn't too bad. And we also have Boulahrouz (unless Melchiot gets over his injury and Van Basten decides to let Boulahrouz go, as he seems to see him as a right-back) who just kicks general ass.

But yeah, Kuijt is no replacement for van Persie on the right. No one is. Though arguably you could make the line behind the striker Sneijder - van Persie - Kuijt. Sneijder plays left in Real Madrid even though we think of him as a real #10, van Persie and van der Vaart are both really good as ghost-strikers or #10s, and Kuijt is a workhorse. 'course the problem then would be one of disbalance, with teams like Italy simply slashing out Sneijder and van Persie by focusing on them, something they wouldn't dare if Robben or van der Vaart were also on the field.

Tough call, tough call.

Van Persie instead of Van der Vaart is a distinct possibility, as that's been Van Persie's most frequent Arsenal starting position. But Van der Vaart has been playing a lot more past year and is very good as well.

Sneijder is pretty solid on most midfield positions, by the way, so I don't know what'll happen there.
Honestly I'm having trouble envisioning the midfield really. I think Robben on the left and Van der Vaart behind Nistelrooy are pretty much give-aways, but the defensive midfielders could go a couple of ways (including Sneijder even though he's not that defensive)

Ah well, we'll see. It'll be easier to see when we know which midfielder doesn't make the cut as well.

Kuyt's decent, but when a player's main quality is his work ethic it's not that brilliant.
Except for his daughter singing 'Helemaal niets in Amsterdam' which is funny as hell.

And really, he's pretty much rubbish on the right wing and plays more as a second striker there.

The fuck?

Please don't steal my lines. Though I guess hatred of Christiano Ronaldo and most of the Portuguese team is well inbred in the Dutch by now. They might be one of the most impopular international teams, for us.

It's mostly Ronaldo I hate.
And interestingly, basically everyone I spoke about the Champions League final said the same thing - cheering when Ronaldo missed and still rooting for Man U and Van der Sar. Sar's awesomes.

I think you are underselling Romania by quite a bit.

Really?
I mean, look at the team. Who do they have? Chivu (awesome but very injury-prone), Mutu (coke-head but awesome), Lobont (very solid goalie).
That's it. Hell, they did decent in the qualifications but that was against shitty teams and a severely underperforming Netherlands. Although that might as well be the case in group C.

Look, Group C is basically a coin toss. Each of the teams has the quality to blank out any of the other teams, so it depends on form. Italy is the only team on whose form you can depend no matter what, and if we look at the 3 others, Romania is probably strongest in form and dominance.

In form? Maybe. But that all turns around in a matter of days, as teams are getting into form in these last days. And dominance, well, I just don't see that. Even though my nutbag Romanian friend tries to convince me otherwise.

 

[Brother None]

Heitinga's pretty solid as a defender, though. Ooijer isn't too bad. And we also have Boulahrouz (unless Melchiot gets over his injury and Van Basten decides to let Boulahrouz go, as he seems to see him as a right-back) who just kicks general ass.

Boula would be my favourite if he were in any kind of gameform. He isn't.

As long as we don't put Joris Mathijssen on the field, we should be fine.

Van Persie instead of Van der Vaart is a distinct possibility, as that's been Van Persie's most frequent Arsenal starting position. But Van der Vaart has been playing a lot more past year and is very good as well.

Ideally you want Vaart, Persie and the Sman on the field, all at the same time.

Hell, ideally you'd have those 3 plus Seedorf on the field. Fun times.

Honestly I'm having trouble envisioning the midfield really. I think Robben on the left and Van der Vaart behind Nistelrooy are pretty much give-aways, but the defensive midfielders could go a couple of ways (including Sneijder even though he's not that defensive)

Sneijder is good as a relay midfielder, which happens on the spot of defensive midfielder, but it's not a good position to start him at, you'll be overrun at the beginning of the game.

I honestly think we shouldn't put up Robben at all - we're all still in love with him but he's been regressing steadily for a year now, and is not really the best we have for the position, and considering van Basten's preferences, a vd Vaart, van Persie and Sneijder 3rd line makes most sense.

And interestingly, basically everyone I spoke about the Champions League final said the same thing - cheering when Ronaldo missed and still rooting for Man U and Van der Sar. Sar's awesomes.

's the Dutch attitude

Though I'm not sure anyone outside Manchester likes Chris R.

I mean, look at the team.

Look at the team of Greece 2004.

 

[Sander]

Boula would be my favourite if he were in any kind of gameform. He isn't.

As long as we don't put Joris Mathijssen on the field, we should be fine.

No kidding, that dude gets worse by the minute.

Ideally you want Vaart, Persie and the Sman on the field, all at the same time.

Hell, ideally you'd have those 3 plus Seedorf on the field. Fun times.

Meh, I still don't really like Seedorf. And he basically plays where Sneijder's playing, 'cept worse and with crappy shots.

But yeah, those three on the field would be ideal, although you do need to have some balance.

Sneijder is good as a relay midfielder, which happens on the spot of defensive midfielder, but it's not a good position to start him at, you'll be overrun at the beginning of the game.

I honestly think we shouldn't put up Robben at all - we're all still in love with him but he's been regressing steadily for a year now, and is not really the best we have for the position, and considering van Basten's preferences, a vd Vaart, van Persie and Sneijder 3rd line makes most sense.

Actually, for the last month or so Robben's been pretty brilliant with Real Madrid. Really, he's gotten a lot better than he had been before - when he had indeed been regressing.

I think Robben deserves a spot, really. He's one of the few people on the team (besides Van Persie and maybe Van der Vaart at times) who can really get past a marker.

Look at the team of Greece 2004.

Well, that's true enough. Although they had a shit-ton of good luck, of course, team-building is probably the single most important factor in success.

 

[Brother None]

No kidding, that dude gets worse by the minute.

Heh.

It's a running joke at a student house in Leiden, ticking off all the times a goal is preceded by the line "Mathijsen lets his man walk"

Used to be the same for Heitinga, but dude improved.

Meh, I still don't really like Seedorf.

How Dutch of you.

Dude is only the most award-winning Dutch club player in history.

Actually, for the last month or so Robben's been pretty brilliant with Real Madrid. Really, he's gotten a lot better than he had been before - when he had indeed been regressing.

I think Robben deserves a spot, really. He's one of the few people on the team (besides Van Persie and maybe Van der Vaart at times) who can really get past a marker.

He's also a winger, which means he doesn't fit into the current 4-2-3-1 system. Hell, since he always sticks to the lines, he'd just get in the way of the advancing wingback, whether that be van Bronckhorst or de Cler.

 

[Sander]

How Dutch of you.

Dude is only the most award-winning Dutch club player in history.

Award-winning might be the wrong term, I think it's prize-winning. Award seems to have more of a personal achievement ring to it.

But yes, he is. However, he never really showed anything in the national team, and especially his weird-ass egotism (the 'I'm not playing on any position except where I want to play' bit under Van Gaal for instance, and his 'He's not using me the way I want to be used' under Van Basten which came from out of the blue) precludes him from being a good team player as he puts his own

He's a good footballer, but I don't see him bringing anything Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Afellay and several others don't bring. And at least their attempts on goal have some potential.

He's also a winger, which means he doesn't fit into the current 4-2-3-1 system. Hell, since he always sticks to the lines, he'd just get in the way of the advancing wingback, whether that be van Bronckhorst or de Cler.

Heh, repeating after the SBS pundits.
Robben doesn't really stick to the line all that much, though. He has a tendency to travel inside towards the goal as well.
But he does get in the way of the advancing wing-back (something you could see in 2004 and 2006), even though that too has gotten better at Real Madrid.

The 4-2-3-1 system is basically a disguised 4-3-3 system, by the way, only wth a bit more retracted wingers.

EDIT: whoop-whoop Landzaat's gone.

 

[maximaz]

Well f***ing Totti isn't f***ing playing again. WTF!! The tournament is ruined for me.

 

[Sander]

Well f***ing Totti isn't f***ing playing again. WTF!! The tournament is ruined for me.

So ehm, that's pretty much old news. The dude hasn't wanted to play for Italy in ages.

Besides, he isn't that great.

 

[Madbringer]

Well f***ing Totti isn't f***ing playing again. WTF!! The tournament is ruined for me.

So ehm, that's pretty much old news. The dude hasn't wanted to play for Italy in ages.

Besides, he isn't that great.

Truths. He's a decent athlete, but waaaaaaaaay too overhyped. Besides, Italy has enough talent to not care one way or another about Totti. That's beside the fact that he's an asshole.

What i am happy about, though, is that Cassano is going. Not only he is in a fantastic form the past couple of months, with his attitude, merry laughs are almost guaranteed.

Too bad about Raul, though. What kind of a manager doesn't take a very in-form player of his caliber just because they have some personal issues? Madman, indeed.

 

[Brother None]

Award-winning might be the wrong term, I think it's prize-winning. Award seems to have more of a personal achievement ring to it.

Uh, yeah, it is personal achievement. Champions League MvP ftw?!

However, he never really showed anything in the national team, and especially his weird-ass egotism (the 'I'm not playing on any position except where I want to play' bit under Van Gaal for instance, and his 'He's not using me the way I want to be used' under Van Basten which came from out of the blue) precludes him from being a good team player as he puts his own

Huh? His problem under van Basten is that B wanted to use him as a bench-sitter and occasional sub. I'm sorry, but that simply is below his status. Do you think van Persie or Sneijder would be content with that position?

He's a good footballer, but I don't see him bringing anything Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Afellay and several others don't bring. And at least their attempts on goal have some potential.

Eh. You're too last-gen, man. The penalty-curse days are over, no need to still hang it over his head. The Dutch peoples have re-embraced Seedorf, man. RE-EMBRACED.

Heh, repeating after the SBS pundits.

Huh? I don't watch SBS. This is my own opinion.

Robben doesn't really stick to the line all that much, though.

Huh? Yeah he does. He runs along the line and then passes inside. That's what a winger does, that's what he does. No he doesn't draw inside, that's what people like van der Vaart and van Persie do (too much).

It's not like he can then help it that he gets in the way of the wingback. Wingbacks aren't supposed to work together with wingers, but Marco wants wingbacks, end of story.

Besides, Robben is our lone winger. It doesn't make much sense to have a winger on one side and a midfielder on the other.

The 4-2-3-1 system is basically a disguised 4-3-3 system, by the way, only wth a bit more retracted wingers.

Cruijf would kill you for that.

"No it isn't", because 4-3-3 is positionally built to always have someone in the back of the front 3. That means that positionally you always have 2 midfielders on the wings behind the wingers.

In 4-2-3-1 those wing-midfield positions are held by the wingbacks, who should cover the entire left and right flanks. The defensive midfielders both play center, one offensive midfielder hangs around the striker while the other two (should) hang around the wings (ours draw inside too much).

In 4-3-3, no one hangs around the striker, the defensive backs can't conveniently move into the front of the field, there are no defensive midfielders right before the centre-backs...well...etc. etc., really

There's more difference than similarities.

 

[Sander]

Uh, yeah, it is personal achievement. Champions League MvP ftw?!

He's not the most award-winning Dutch club player in personal achievements, only in prizes won with his clubs.
Still a great achievement, though.

Huh? His problem under van Basten is that B wanted to use him as a bench-sitter and occasional sub. I'm sorry, but that simply is below his status. Do you think van Persie or Sneijder would be content with that position?

Well, yes, I think they would and at their clubs both have done so in the past.
And really, I don't give two shits about his personal pride. He's supposed to be working for the team, not himself.

Eh. You're too last-gen, man. The penalty-curse days are over, no need to still hang it over his head. The Dutch peoples have re-embraced Seedorf, man. RE-EMBRACED.

I wasn't talking about his penalties, I was talking about his consistently failing shots from the second line.

Huh? I don't watch SBS. This is my own opinion.

The match aired on SBS.

Huh? Yeah he does. He runs along the line and then passes inside. That's what a winger does, that's what he does. No he doesn't draw inside, that's what people like van der Vaart and van Persie do (too much).

He also has a tendency to go for goal a lot, although he's been doing that a lot less with Real lately.

Cruijf would kill you for that.

"No it isn't", because 4-3-3 is positionally built to always have someone in the back of the front 3. That means that positionally you always have 2 midfielders on the wings behind the wingers.

In 4-2-3-1 those wing-midfield positions are held by the wingbacks, who should cover the entire left and right flanks. The defensive midfielders both play center, one offensive midfielder hangs around the striker while the other two (should) hang around the wings (ours draw inside too much).

In 4-3-3, no one hangs around the striker, the defensive backs can't conveniently move into the front of the field, there are no defensive midfielders right before the centre-backs...well...etc. etc., really

Cruyff would most definitely kill you for that.

You're correct when talking about a very rigid 4-3-3, but the 4-3-3 system that Cruyff and Van Basten espouse features wingers that frequently help out in midfield and wingbacks that are still supposed to travel the entire length of the field. You're right that Robben got in the way a lot there, though this did not happen on the right side.
Moreover, most games where we used 4-3-3 featured one of the midfielders as an attacking midfielder mainly supporting the striker.

The big difference, though, is that this system has a much bigger focus on midfield and features almost a pure 10 instead of an attacking midfielder.

 

[Brother None]

He's not the most award-winning Dutch club player in personal achievements, only in prizes won with his clubs.

I always find that argument odd at best. He played CL with 3 different clubs, at that point it's hard to argue that his club is the constant factor that gets him prizes, rather than himself.

That said, there aren't many awards a player can win as a personal achievement. The golden shoe is for strikers only, so that means that out of our entire international pool, the only players with individual awards are Ruud van Nistelrooy (best striker 2002-2003) and Clarence Seedorf (best midfielder 2006-2007, Champions League MvP). Stam won best defender two times, but he's retired.

That's about it. Cruijf won the UEFA golden ball once. Roy Makaay was European top-scorer once. National top-scoring awards aren't worth counting.

And that's about it. There aren't any other individual achievements to get other than meaningless ones. Seedorf, other than team achievements (4 national championships in 3 countries, 4 CLs with 3 teams) also has the best record individually of any active player.

Well, yes, I think they would and at their clubs both have done so in the past.

Sneijder can't complain about being benched for Real, since he's new, but van Persie hasn't been benched for anything other than injuries in years now. Besides, club status isn't the same as national status.

The answer is actually no: van der Vaart, van Persie or Sneijder would not be content with the role Marco pushed on Seedorf.

Why?

And really, I don't give two shits about his personal pride. He's supposed to be working for the team, not himself.

Because this is nice, but it's a fairy tale. Team players are a rarity amongst these overpaid nancy-pants, not the rule.

I wasn't talking about his penalties, I was talking about his consistently failing shots from the second line.

Consistently? I think that's pure impressionist analysis, man. Wesley Sneijder has an inferior goals-per-cap average than Seedorf, and Wesley has a better starts-average.

The match aired on SBS.

Yeah I know, but I didn't watch any analysis or whatever.

You're correct when talking about a very rigid 4-3-3, but the 4-3-3 system that Cruyff and Van Basten espouse features wingers that frequently help out in midfield and wingbacks that are still supposed to travel the entire length of the field. You're right that Robben got in the way a lot there, though this did not happen on the right side.
Moreover, most games where we used 4-3-3 featured one of the midfielders as an attacking midfielder mainly supporting the striker.

Supporting, yes. Hanging? No. 4-3-3 is based on a true-#10, which isn't the same role as a ghost-striker - which is the role of the central midfielder in 4-2-3-1. After all, a #10 is supposed to walk the field, while the central midfielder in 4-2-3-1 is supposed to hang around the striker - this in part to prevent the problem of the striker being a long figure that everyone ignores or can't reach, which happened frequently in Marco's 4-3-3 days.

Additionally, travelling is not the same as what determines positional play - especially when you don't have the ball. The reason Cruijf always espouses 4-3-3 (and I am paraphrasing his own explanation, given at RTL Voetbal Inside here) is extra freedom of play as you know someone always has your back in case you lose the ball. That is a non-factor for 4-2-3-1, not to mention 4-2-3-1 has 5 midfielders in completely different positions than was the case for 4-3-3.

Notice 4-2-3-1 has an axis in the middle of the field circled by 3 players (2 defensive and the central offensive midfielder). Again, not the case for 4-3-3. I could go on and on and on, really.

Honestly, as clever as you may think your "4-2-3-1 is basically 4-3-3 with retreated wingers" analysis may be, it's pretty damned far off the mark.

And again, the reason it didn't happen on the right side is because we never had a winger for our right side. Robben is the only true winger of any quality we have left (I suppose technically Babel could qualify, too), which is why it's stupid to take him into account when we have better players that would fit into a different system.

 

[Sander]

I always find that argument odd at best. He played CL with 3 different clubs, at that point it's hard to argue that his club is the constant factor that gets him prizes, rather than himself.

That's not what I said nor was it my point.

And in your list of individual prizes you're forgetting that most leagues have best player awards, and I'm pretty sure there are international awards for most positions (Van der Sar won best European goalkeeper in '95 for instance).

I don't think he's some kind of horrible football player and I think he does fine with AC Milan.

Sneijder can't complain about being benched for Real, since he's new, but van Persie hasn't been benched for anything other than injuries in years now. Besides, club status isn't the same as national status.

The answer is actually no: van der Vaart, van Persie or Sneijder would not be content with the role Marco pushed on Seedorf.

Why?

And really, I don't give two shits about his personal pride. He's supposed to be working for the team, not himself.

Because this is nice, but it's a fairy tale. Team players are a rarity amongst these overpaid nancy-pants, not the rule.

Gogo Kuyt.

I'm talking about players who do not mind getting benched if that's better for the team, and players who will fulfill their role in the field. Yes, we're lacking in that. Van Bronckhorst, for instance, had no problem going back to left-back in the past game. Hell, I can remember some games where Davids played left-back, no problem either.
That doesn't make Seedorf's 'I only play the spot where I want to play and I have to be the center of the game' attitude any better.

Consistently? I think that's pure impressionist analysis, man. Wesley Sneijder has an inferior goals-per-cap average than Seedorf, and Wesley has a better starts-average.

Ehm, no he doesn't. Seedorf has 86 appearances, 11 goals. Sneijder has 43 appearances and 8 goals. At club level, too, Sneijder has scored more percentage-wise even though Seedorf has been playing in a team where he basically has free roam for the past years.

Also, I'm pretty sure Seedorf attempts to score from a distance more often.

Supporting, yes. Hanging? No. 4-3-3 is based on a true-#10, which isn't the same role as a ghost-striker - which is the role of the central midfielder in 4-2-3-1. After all, a #10 is supposed to walk the field, while the central midfielder in 4-2-3-1 is supposed to hang around the striker - this in part to prevent the problem of the striker being a long figure that everyone ignores or can't reach, which happened frequently in Marco's 4-3-3 days.

Ehmz, that is what a #10 does, what Litmanen (the archetypal #10) did at Ajax and what Van der Vaart did last week. In fact, a #10 isn't supposed to be walking the entire field but playing mostly between midfield and striker.

Additionally, travelling is not the same as what determines positional play - especially when you don't have the ball. The reason Cruijf always espouses 4-3-3 (and I am paraphrasing his own explanation, given at RTL Voetbal Inside here) is extra freedom of play as you know someone always has your back in case you lose the ball. That is a non-factor for 4-2-3-1, not to mention 4-2-3-1 has 5 midfielders in completely different positions than was the case for 4-3-3.

Why is that a non-factor with 4-2-3-1?

Notice 4-2-3-1 has an axis in the middle of the field circled by 3 players (2 defensive and the central offensive midfielder). Again, not the case for 4-3-3. I could go on and on and on, really.

Actually, as Van Basten put it down, that's exactly how 4-3-3 worked. We had 2 defensive players and 1 offensive players behind the striker. Which is exactly why it failed, because there was always a huge gap between offense and defense.

And again, the reason it didn't happen on the right side is because we never had a winger for our right side. Robben is the only true winger of any quality we have left (I suppose technically Babel could qualify, too), which is why it's stupid to take him into account when we have better players that would fit into a different system.

I wasn't disputing that that happened because there were no real wingers on the right side.
Although I disagree that it's stupid to have a winger on one side and none on the other. Why would a football team have to play symmetrically?