V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system

Sander said:
lewis said:
if VATS stop the time it must be a way to make the player to move when uses it, adding the same points to shot but in this case to move, them keep the time stoped for the player and let the npc make limited moves and shot, once their done them the player may move and shot again (something like simulating a turn-based system)
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No, because other people don't get extra movement in VATS. If I understand correctly what you're saying, which is doubtful.

Look, when a player uses VATS, nothing changes for the NPCs. They move at the same speed and they take the same actions. Conversely, when an NPC uses VATS a PC shouldn't be able to notice.
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i think the system got potencial to mod him and simulate a turn based-system, ¿if you can mod the game to kill chilldren, so why not VATS too?
 
lewis said:
i think the system got potencial to mod him and simulate a turn based-system, ¿if you can mod the game to kill chilldren, so why not VATS too?
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Er, because one is a mod that fundamentally changes the entire working of the basic engine and hence requires a re-working of the basic executable, and the other is just a minor tweak which requires reworking one or two variables?
 
A PC would notice an NPC using VATS, if only in the multiple shots hitting them in the face at once before they were gibbed.

If you want to 'mimic' an NPC using VATS you would just give him random bursts of insane firing speed and exceptional accuracy while doing so.
 
lewis said:
if vats were permanent, you could move and the npc could benefict from it, them it can be called a combat system.
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Exactly, it is just an optional tool the player can use. Realtime w/pause games do not have two combat systems, being able to pause the game and queue up actions is just an option available, the same thing can be done in real time. FPS games with auto-aim don't have two combat systems either, like VATS shots, auto-aim will hit most of the tie but not always. VATS does nothing that cant be done in realtime, it just lets you pause the game and queue up auto-aim shots at part of your opponent. That is unless you are using a melee weapon, no aimed shot allowed for some bizarre reason. There are some special VATS only gimmicks like mysterious stranger, again this is no different than a special attack, it does not constitute some sort of independent system from the real time combat.

On the subject of combat, Fallout 3 is extremely easy and there is no strategy required to be successful. Using VATS does not give me any sort of advatage, it just drags out the already dull combat. So for me there is no point in using VATS unless you just cant get enough slow motion, or don't like/are unable to aim manually. I play on the highest difficulty and only use melee weapons, and of course all of my equipment is at best in 50% condition since nobody can repair very well. Doesn't matter, it means maybe one hit more I'd have to land or one hit less I'd have to receive before death. Most enemies dont hit me at all when I bunnyhop my way towards them, and even when right next to them strafing around they still miss. I just bash them two-five times with a baseball bat/lead pipe/sledge/flaming sword. The only interesting melee weapon is the ripper, it does seem to work like I would expect a mini chainsaw to work; run into people and grind them up, no clickfest required, just a lot of dryhumping your enemies until they go all squishy. I know, gross :P
 
Sander said:
lewis said:
i think the system got potencial to mod him and simulate a turn based-system, ¿if you can mod the game to kill chilldren, so why not VATS too?
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Er, because one is a mod that fundamentally changes the entire working of the basic engine and hence requires a re-working of the basic executable, and the other is just a minor tweak which requires reworking one or two variables?
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a lot of mods out there changes the entire working of the basic engine and creates something diferent like the mod that turns half life 2 into a strategy game, but damn i need a pick of VATS to explain better my idea, ¿someone please would kindly put a pick of the VATS system?.
 
Sander said:
lewis said:
if vats were permanent, you could move and the npc could benefict from it, them it can be called a combat system.
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VATS would be useless to NPCs. It's just a method for humans to make aimed shots. This is useless to NPCs, since they don't need to slow down the world to do this.

In other words: it should be impossible to note the difference between an NPC using VATS and one not using VATS.
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Yes it would be possible, goddamit: time would slow down for the AI, making the player's bullets travel much more slowly than the NPCs, all the while making them virtually invulnerable.

Since that never happens, VATS is player-only, which is cool in a single-player FPS, but definitely not a RPG combat mechanic.
 
VATS doesnt slow enemies down compared to you. It slows everyone and lets you to make some aimed shots. I've been killed during VATS more than once just coz enemies keep shooting and shooting just as fast as outside VATS. Get an assault rifle and use it in VATS. You will see the differense in firing speed. Its easily visible.
 
I just installed that mod that raises the damage you receive during vats to 200%, freezes you a couple of seconds and quickly restores your action points. It's not perfect but it certainly beats the fps gameplay.
 
Buxbaum666 said:
I just installed that mod that raises the damage you receive during vats to 200%, freezes you a couple of seconds and quickly restores your action points. It's not perfect but it certainly beats the fps gameplay.
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its a good start, now what this game need its a virtual dice to check if you hit or not.
 
lewis said:
its a good start, now what this game need its a virtual dice to check if you hit or not.
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This virtual dice also apply to combat without VATS?

Also secound question if i add 30 points into guns skills i will aim better with VATS but it will also increse my accuraracy if i dont use VATS right? i know more skill increases damage...but i cant find other info what more skill adds higher crit chance?

Thx for answear in advance.Manual and ingame info is poor and i dont got to much time to experiment so i want answear so i will not blow anything...i only play with 1 savegame :)
 
lewis said:
Buxbaum666 said:
I just installed that mod that raises the damage you receive during vats to 200%, freezes you a couple of seconds and quickly restores your action points. It's not perfect but it certainly beats the fps gameplay.
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its a good start, now what this game need its a virtual dice to check if you hit or not.
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all dice do is solve a static probability question. What 1 number out of 6 will i "pick" 1d6. Dice are a physical way of solving this. Computers can do this on their own, and if you think you hit everytime in vats, your wrong because the computer is solving out the probability based on your skill levels. omg fallout1+2 didn't even use a bunch of 1d6 rolls simulated by the computer...

For those of you who think that the computer doesn't use "vats" well they don't. They don't care what the screen looks like. The computer has to run probability to see if they hit you then where they hit you and all of that kind of stuff too. If anything, they run more in a vats like simulation based off of "turns" that go by so fast only the computer really knows about them. I guess of course we could always force the computer players to all run a 95% chance to hit, and make them all aim for the head only because that is logically where they would want to shoot for. but then this wouldn't be much of a game.

Walk into a room with 6 raiders. Carry your hunting rifle. The first instant you hit the room, you have 6 raiders firing with a 95% chance to hit your head at least 5 will hit you before you can even hit the vats button. now you can kill 3 with critical shots to the head across the room. Even if the rest weren't moving, you are now out of vats and the 3 shoot you again with deadly accuracy and you can't stop it. (ever play in a game where someone is using an aimbot? now imagine if EVERY NPC could do the same.)

Solution. If you want to play without vats because you get an unfair advantage over something that is using it 100% of the time, fine. But I guarentee that everything in that game is running through its own (not rendered) version of the game and the several thousand game ticks "turns" which determine the delay of reloading/walking ect are being used by the computer.


PS I'm EXTREMELY glad that many of you guys are not game developers. Most of your ideas would never work and you don't even see why.
 
I thought VATS was supposed to provide some appeal to those that like the RPG aspect of the game and aren't good at FPS games.

Buxbaum666 said:
I just installed that mod that raises the damage you receive during vats to 200%, freezes you a couple of seconds and quickly restores your action points. It's not perfect but it certainly beats the fps gameplay.
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Maybe I should check that out sometime. What is it?
 
Makatak said:
I thought VATS was supposed to provide some appeal to those that like the RPG aspect of the game and aren't good at FPS games.
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I thought Beth said FO3 would be an RPG.
.
.
.
.
.
......
Nope.
 
^ You said:
I thought VATS was supposed to provide some appeal to those that like the RPG aspect of the game and aren't good at FPS games.
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You defined it already. Why would an RPG game need to include extra RPG aspects to appeal to those who aren't good at FPS? And why would someone need to be good at FPS to play an RPG? There, you said it.

I was merely picking on what you said. FOO isn't really an FPS, it's an MMO.
 
Its not an RPG. Its like D2. You have choice, but its only useful for making your character better at killing, not playing YOUR character. Killing is all that matters in the end.
 
i think i'd like vats more if i didn't aim for the head 99/100 times and watch a slow-mo way too clean (and incredibly nonsensical) decapitation.

i've been playing the recently released valkyria chronicles, which is a first person, turn based, strategy rpg (srpg). and it has the combat i wish F03 did (with mods).

already posted about it here:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46776&highlight=

but yea. VATS is terrible as implemented. There's a cool factor involved if you like FPS and such, but it feels tacked on to an FPS to make the terrible FPS (compared to other FPSs on the market) less obvious.
 
HoKa said:
For the last time, stop referring to V.A.T.S. as an alternative to real-time, as a combat system, because it isn't: it's a glorified cheating menu.

The reason? It's pretty obvious: you can use it, while your enemies can't.

So drop it.
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I can use it but my enemies can't? So what like all my enemies are actually using their mouse to aim at me?

Gee, I kinda assumed that my enemies were going through the same skill checks, spending AP, aiming for specific body parts, etc. that I was in VATS. If that's true, how is that any different what I'm doing in VATS?

Would you prefer that when they attack you the game freezes for five seconds and tells you in advance which body part they are aiming at or something? Can you elaborate when you say "you can use it, while your enemies can't", because what you are claiming is anything but "obvious" to me.
 
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