khain
[X] Sarcastic
And it's not like they're lacking the money to expand, apparently:
http://www.gamesradar.com/fallout-4-developer-bethesda-montreal-studio/
http://www.gamesradar.com/fallout-4-developer-bethesda-montreal-studio/
Wasted Potential
- Thread starter Empty09
- Start date
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
I'm not making an excuse for them; just pointing out the problem. They need new talents ASAP. I remember when they hired one of the designers of "Thief" series and that guy alone made a big leap in the stealth gameplay plus quests he designed(thief's guild and Dark Brotherhood) were on par with the stealth games back then. However after that they didn't add a single change to it. It's the same gameplay mechanic from 2006(Oblivion) and not even one essential improvement have been done since that time: It's still not possible to elimate enemies without killing them, bodies of the enemies still don't have an effect, there is still no reward for stealth runs without killing or alarming anyone, there is still no realistic communication between enemies, there are still no alternative pathways to reach an objective... They own Arkane Studios FFS! Hire them for a while!
They probably cut off diplomacy, dialog choices, decent quests because these requires ton of workforce which they severely lack.
Yes F4 have a much better FPS experience and much better Power Armor mechanic and i'm not going to lie that mechanic alone added a new gameplay style to the game. However whenever they try to add something they remove something else because it's still same number of guys working there while with every game more is expected from them.
They probably cut off diplomacy, dialog choices, decent quests because these requires ton of workforce which they severely lack.
Yes F4 have a much better FPS experience and much better Power Armor mechanic and i'm not going to lie that mechanic alone added a new gameplay style to the game. However whenever they try to add something they remove something else because it's still same number of guys working there while with every game more is expected from them.
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khain
[X] Sarcastic
Well maybe the article I linked to will help with that.
It sounds like an addition of 40 bodies represents quite a step up for them compared to the current workforce, so who knows.
Maybe the Montreal office will be the division of roleplay and immersion.
Only if those 40 guys also end up working on the same project, if their idea is to make more mobile games ... we have to wait and see I guess.
Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter if you have 4 or 4 000 people working for them. The people in charge decide what design and what goals to follow. Todd Howard is simply no Warren Spector, Tim Cain or Leonard Boyarsky in that sense. And who knows, maybe even if Todd Howard wasn't in charge it would not change much, because someone at Zenimax tells them, to sell this game to as many people as possible.
And that's the biggest issue for Fallout.
I don't think so. I played those quests in both Oblivion and Skyrim. And neither Oblivion nor Skyrim have really stelar stealth mechanics. There have been games and there are still games that have alot more options here and as a fan of the first Thief games, I can say that neither the writing of the Dark Brotherhood or the Thief guild actually is comparable with it.
I think Emil is overrated in that respect, nothing of what he made for Bethesda so far as blown me out of the water. And why should it, Emil wasn't even involved in the Dark Project, he worked only on Thief 2 and has worked for Bethesda since then. So I am not sure why people so often see him as someone with extensive experience or knowledge in stealth genres.
Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter if you have 4 or 4 000 people working for them. The people in charge decide what design and what goals to follow. Todd Howard is simply no Warren Spector, Tim Cain or Leonard Boyarsky in that sense. And who knows, maybe even if Todd Howard wasn't in charge it would not change much, because someone at Zenimax tells them, to sell this game to as many people as possible.
And that's the biggest issue for Fallout.
I don't think so. I played those quests in both Oblivion and Skyrim. And neither Oblivion nor Skyrim have really stelar stealth mechanics. There have been games and there are still games that have alot more options here and as a fan of the first Thief games, I can say that neither the writing of the Dark Brotherhood or the Thief guild actually is comparable with it.
I think Emil is overrated in that respect, nothing of what he made for Bethesda so far as blown me out of the water. And why should it, Emil wasn't even involved in the Dark Project, he worked only on Thief 2 and has worked for Bethesda since then. So I am not sure why people so often see him as someone with extensive experience or knowledge in stealth genres.
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Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
Well probably because he's actualy good and untill Oblivion, no rpg had a decent stealth gameplay. Also for a 2006 game Oblivion had a very good stealth mechanic. It maybe not "THE" stealth game of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good(Except for the super guards that hear you from miles away.) even today Metal Gear Solid(where stealth is a big part of the game) can't do justice to stealth.
Also you can't just dismiss them because they don't have a great story behind them. They're not the main plot, just guild quests. Only few games can reach the standart we old school fans expect (Fallout, Deus Ex, PS:Torment, maybe Throne of Bhaal, Kotor2, Vtm:Bloodlines... and most of these games don't have better side quests than Oblivion and all have sooo much worse stealth systems.)
Also you can't just dismiss them because they don't have a great story behind them. They're not the main plot, just guild quests. Only few games can reach the standart we old school fans expect (Fallout, Deus Ex, PS:Torment, maybe Throne of Bhaal, Kotor2, Vtm:Bloodlines... and most of these games don't have better side quests than Oblivion and all have sooo much worse stealth systems.)
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That's not an excuse in my opinion. It works that way for everything I guess.
Mediocre combat? It maybe not "THE" Combat game of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre writing? It maybe not "THE" Dialog game of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre quest design? It maybe not "THE" Quests design of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre loot hunting? It maybe not "THE" Loot hunting of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Yes, actually I think I can. Because otherwise you would not need any story at all and just create a mine-craft clone with nothing but gameplay. If I had to chose between a game with mediocre gameplay and great narrative/story or a game with nearly perfect gameplay but no storry, I would always chose the one with the story. - Minecraft would be eventually an exception, but as far as I know, Minecraft is not trying to sell it self as deep role playing experience.
It does matter, particularly a game that is sold as RPG. And particularly as most of the story and quests in Oblivion well, are a clear downgrades from Morrowind and previous Elder Scroll games, hell Dagerfall had even different endings from what I can read.
Not to mention Morrowind had a lot more factions and groups that you could join or interact with, roughly the same size with the world, more locations of interest, more hand placed content and I think no Radiant AI quests. But, with Morrowind a lot of the Talent responsible for the previous games actually left or was pushed out. So I am not sure, what this extra work was that has gone on in Oblivion which made it so extremly difficult to offer compeling quests and interesting stories. I mean hey, I am not saying they have to be Shakespeare or Whalt Witeman quality of writing. But this same idiotic stuff that we have in Fallout 4 leading to the 200-year-ghoul-in-a-fridge was already present in Oblivions quests. And from a company that is constantly hyping their games, I think you can and you should expect more than that.
The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful
Todd Howard
It's time to move RPGs forward and really show how entertaining they can be.
Todd Howard
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=129
I don't want to attack you! Or sound overly agressive. The fact that stealth was mediocre definetly didn't broke the game, not for me anyway. I knew that it was not a "Stealth" game. But, to call it anything else than mediocre, even for that time, is kinda naive. At least, I have to admit, Oblivion had one thing over Skyrim. The Thief guild and the quest line, in Oblivion at least, was about stealing and sneaking for the most part ... where Skyrims Thief guild ... was about stupidity? I think?
The Thieves Guild is not the worst bit of writing in Skyrim. (I think I’d give that honor to the quest in Markarth where you have to deal with the Forsworn.) But I don’t want you to think I’m cherry-picking some halfhearted sidequest. This is a major part of Skyrim and a lot of environments, characters, and cutscenes are dedicated it This is a shame, because the Thieves Guild questline is a mess. It’s unnecessarily terrible, failing at multiple levels and attempting things that aren’t even needed. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s start at the beginning…
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
Mediocre combat? It maybe not "THE" Combat game of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre writing? It maybe not "THE" Dialog game of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre quest design? It maybe not "THE" Quests design of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Mediocre loot hunting? It maybe not "THE" Loot hunting of that time but for such a vast sandbox game which had one of the biggest(if not the biggest) game world, it was pretty good.
Yes, actually I think I can. Because otherwise you would not need any story at all and just create a mine-craft clone with nothing but gameplay. If I had to chose between a game with mediocre gameplay and great narrative/story or a game with nearly perfect gameplay but no storry, I would always chose the one with the story. - Minecraft would be eventually an exception, but as far as I know, Minecraft is not trying to sell it self as deep role playing experience.
It does matter, particularly a game that is sold as RPG. And particularly as most of the story and quests in Oblivion well, are a clear downgrades from Morrowind and previous Elder Scroll games, hell Dagerfall had even different endings from what I can read.
Not to mention Morrowind had a lot more factions and groups that you could join or interact with, roughly the same size with the world, more locations of interest, more hand placed content and I think no Radiant AI quests. But, with Morrowind a lot of the Talent responsible for the previous games actually left or was pushed out. So I am not sure, what this extra work was that has gone on in Oblivion which made it so extremly difficult to offer compeling quests and interesting stories. I mean hey, I am not saying they have to be Shakespeare or Whalt Witeman quality of writing. But this same idiotic stuff that we have in Fallout 4 leading to the 200-year-ghoul-in-a-fridge was already present in Oblivions quests. And from a company that is constantly hyping their games, I think you can and you should expect more than that.
The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful
Todd Howard
It's time to move RPGs forward and really show how entertaining they can be.
Todd Howard
I don't want to attack you! Or sound overly agressive. The fact that stealth was mediocre definetly didn't broke the game, not for me anyway. I knew that it was not a "Stealth" game. But, to call it anything else than mediocre, even for that time, is kinda naive. At least, I have to admit, Oblivion had one thing over Skyrim. The Thief guild and the quest line, in Oblivion at least, was about stealing and sneaking for the most part ... where Skyrims Thief guild ... was about stupidity? I think?
The Thieves Guild is not the worst bit of writing in Skyrim. (I think I’d give that honor to the quest in Markarth where you have to deal with the Forsworn.) But I don’t want you to think I’m cherry-picking some halfhearted sidequest. This is a major part of Skyrim and a lot of environments, characters, and cutscenes are dedicated it This is a shame, because the Thieves Guild questline is a mess. It’s unnecessarily terrible, failing at multiple levels and attempting things that aren’t even needed. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s start at the beginning…
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
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Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
I wasn't telling that being a sandbox game is ipso facto an excuse for everything, you're exaggerating. As you can see i didn't tell anything about "writing" but i used the word "story". Because even the most mundane quest(story) can have outstanding dialogs. What makes a dialog good is not it's content but how realistic and sensible it is. Vtm: Bloodlines has the best written dialogs i have ever seen in a rpg yet there was not even one dialog which was deep or rich in lore.It was good simply because including pc; everyone was talking like an actual person according to present situation. What Oblivion horrendous at was it's f**king horrible dialogs: people gossipping about mudcraps or other BS. Everyone in that game was talking like 9 year old.
However both Thieves Guild and DB had decent stories with very good quest design. I still remember these quest fondly and i hated that game! I played every major RPG untill Oblivion; it had better side quests and better quest design than all of them. It was cliche, it was boring, it was disrespectful to it's own setting and the worst thing about it was treating the player like a 9 year old. Just because your rightful loathing don't dismiss what it did right. Even that right thing wasn't important for you.
Yeah though they were very similar to Fallout 4 like; i choose A,B,C or D to finish the game with.
Oblivion had stupid quests and i mean: "whoa... that's so stupid..." level stupid but there was always a chance to come across something unique and fun. Finding a town with invisible residents, buying a house for a damn good price only to find out it's actualy cursed, sleep in a ship then it gets hijacked....
By the way Morrowind is very very small compared to Oblivion. Like very much. Morrowind too had horrible player and generic NPC dialogs though. Only part it shines over Oblivion is it's cool NPCs and superb setting and main quest. Which are more important for a RPG so i guess it's simply a better RPG.
Ermm... f*ck Todd Howard?
If you ask me Oblivion was a great sand-box game: it offers ton of crafting, different play-styles, a beatiful, living world for a player's whims. But it's as RPG as Far Cry 3.
I agree Skyrim only had a much much better game world, better art and better combat(which was still mundane anyway) and at everything else it was worse than Oblivion.
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Mr Fish
Slippy sloppy, The
A well-designed turd will always be a turd tho'.
And Skyrim, to me, is awful in every single way.
Do they really? Or isn't it simply like the thing with the mediocre and the ugly girl next to it, where the mediocre girl seems to be the pretiest face you eve seen, simply because what you have next to her is some of the worst thing you have ever seen.
I think that's the part with Oblivion, at least that's my feeling. You had to lower your standards expectations with the game so much, that something like the Thief guild or the Dark Brotherhood simply HAD to impress you, somewhat.
For me personaly, I just found it mediocre. Was it in generall better compared to most other stuff you had in Oblivion as Questlines? Sure. But still, just mediocre at the end of the day.
I encountered some of those as well, and while they are fun, they are most of the time way to short and to rare. It simply begs the question why for example the main story or the factions didn't saw that kind of attention and uniqueness.
That's pretty much the core if it, isn't it? I am not saying Oblivion can't be a fun game. I certainly had SOME fun here and there. My point is, that Far Cry is not sold as RPG, not as far as I know. Where Oblivion was sold as deep and rich RPG experience - which it obviously isn't. But knowing Morrowind, that was sadly the mindset that I had when playing Oblivion for first time, believing that they actually improved on this one thing that Morrowind lacked. Role Playing. Actuall interesting quests. With great NPCs and writing. Multiple choices. All that stuff they talked about in their little marketing hype-videos before the release. And at that time, Radiant AI and what they have shown, was actually pretty impressive. The end product however dissapointed me a lot. So I won't even denny that I am biased. I got into it with the wrong expectations.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I found some fun quests in Oblivion, that had lot's of choice and were worth playing several times to see what happened.
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
Mages and Fighters Guilds were bad; "GO. KILL. LOOT. BE THE LEADER WE DESERVE." routine, however both DB and Thieves were good, even how you join was unexpected in both cases.
Nostalgia is a thing. Especialy guys like us who're at their thirties(or close
). I personaly always play the older entities before playing a new release. You maybe shocked but Fallout 3 didn't hurt me as much as it did the majority of old fans because i remember how few dialog choices for the player in Fallout(not Fallout 2 though it had a lot of dialog, however how random and juveline they were).
Still Fallout 3 had an atmosphere more close to first Fallout so it was a personel plus for me(because i really don't like Fallout 2, to be honest i think i hate it).
In quality and quantity of dialogs New Vegas is the best game in the series tough it was a shooter so i can relate why you don't like it as a Fallout fan.
Betheda selling its games as RPGs is almost a false advertisement. However i always had fun with their games untill Fallout 4. The decisions they made with this game(companion dislike system and how they provide op perks and nice stories only if you kill your own RP and act as they demand), factions accepting me right away and this "KILLING EVERY LIVING THING AND LOOTING THEM THEN FETCING THINGS AND KILLING GHOULS THEN FETHING MORE KILLING RAIDER NOT TALKING NOT TALKING KILL KILL KILL!" concept realy take the fun out of it for me.
Bad Fallout game? It can still be an enjoyable rpg(Fallout 2), Bad RPG? It can still be an enjoyable game(Fallout 3). Unenjoyable game? It can still be... well... a chore?
Nostalgia is a thing. Especialy guys like us who're at their thirties(or close
). I personaly always play the older entities before playing a new release. You maybe shocked but Fallout 3 didn't hurt me as much as it did the majority of old fans because i remember how few dialog choices for the player in Fallout(not Fallout 2 though it had a lot of dialog, however how random and juveline they were).Still Fallout 3 had an atmosphere more close to first Fallout so it was a personel plus for me(because i really don't like Fallout 2, to be honest i think i hate it).
In quality and quantity of dialogs New Vegas is the best game in the series tough it was a shooter so i can relate why you don't like it as a Fallout fan.
Betheda selling its games as RPGs is almost a false advertisement. However i always had fun with their games untill Fallout 4. The decisions they made with this game(companion dislike system and how they provide op perks and nice stories only if you kill your own RP and act as they demand), factions accepting me right away and this "KILLING EVERY LIVING THING AND LOOTING THEM THEN FETCING THINGS AND KILLING GHOULS THEN FETHING MORE KILLING RAIDER NOT TALKING NOT TALKING KILL KILL KILL!" concept realy take the fun out of it for me.
Bad Fallout game? It can still be an enjoyable rpg(Fallout 2), Bad RPG? It can still be an enjoyable game(Fallout 3). Unenjoyable game? It can still be... well... a chore?
And how does this apply with Epic Mickey, which was subpar in every aspect.
Mr Fish
Slippy sloppy, The
Skyrim was diarrehatic shit in every aspect.
So to me he did design a game that was awful.
Not Fallout 4 though, it doesn't look at bad as Skyrim.
So it depends on what you mean, did you mean Fallout 4 or just games in general that Todd's been behind?
Cause if it is the former then it does not apply, obviously.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
What does Epic Mickey have to do with Fallout 4? are you guys seriously going to use that fallacy? Bring up legendarily bad games to deflect criticism from Fallout 4?
MercenarySnake
Kept you waiting huh?
To make a huge turd not seem as bad when compared to a monumental turd? They just want to grasp for something to make us feel like our criticisms about the game are blown out of proportion or something along those lines.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Hmm... all it does is get them covered in crap.
He talked about Warren Spector
Warren Spector was the director of Epic Mickey.
I'm not seeing how this is deflecting criticism of fo4
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Because you're basically saying 'hey Fallout 4 isn't that bad because there are worse games out there'.
MercenarySnake
Kept you waiting huh?
The moment someone tries to compare a shit game to an even shittier game to help out with their argument...