Well THIS is eerily prophetic...

[frajaq]

Will you recount some examples?

With the Warrior I always just barged in the dungeons already swinging, and went my way to search for mines/go to Orc Strongholds in search of crafting materials. I did a lot more Smithing/Enchanting than the other, I never did quests for scummy characters and sided with the Empire after seeing how racist the Stormcloaks were in the Civil War.

On the thief I basically stole everything I saw in front of me, and played dungeons while sneaking around and having fun sniping enemies from afar. I joined the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood as quickly as possible and did all sorts of shit with them. Didn't bother with the Civil War questline because I figured my character didn't care to be involved in that.

 

[fakeangel]

http://awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=012113

*cough*

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Will you recount some examples?

With the Warrior I always just barged in the dungeons already swinging, and went my way to search for mines/go to Orc Strongholds in search of crafting materials. I did a lot more Smithing/Enchanting than the other, I never did quests for scummy characters and sided with the Empire after seeing how racist the Stormcloaks were in the Civil War.

On the thief I basically stole everything I saw in front of me, and played dungeons while sneaking around and having fun sniping enemies from afar. I joined the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood as quickly as possible and did all sorts of shit with them. Didn't bother with the Civil War questline because I figured my character didn't care to be involved in that.

Wow that's so deep. Bethesda removed RPG elements from the game, so now you just pretend that they are still there. In a way, you are a master role player.

 

[Swastakowey]

Will you recount some examples?

With the Warrior I always just barged in the dungeons already swinging, and went my way to search for mines/go to Orc Strongholds in search of crafting materials. I did a lot more Smithing/Enchanting than the other, I never did quests for scummy characters and sided with the Empire after seeing how racist the Stormcloaks were in the Civil War.

On the thief I basically stole everything I saw in front of me, and played dungeons while sneaking around and having fun sniping enemies from afar. I joined the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood as quickly as possible and did all sorts of shit with them. Didn't bother with the Civil War questline because I figured my character didn't care to be involved in that.

"I killed things differently and it was funner"

"I had to prevent myself from doing every quest to make the game feel different this time around"

Ultimately you did as much RPGing in Skyrim it seems as I did in Starwars Battlefront 2: "I shot them with a shotgun for a hours, then went back and killed them with a rocket launcher for more hours but this time I refused to fight for CIS!"

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Video guy complained about removing stats from Oblivion -> Skyrim. Which is actually a really good thing considering they sucked ass and were annoying to plan around with.

Thankfully a similar thing happened from F3 -> F4 when Beth took out the boring skill system and made it all perk-based

That's not Fallout. Also... Stats and skills are there to define a character; they are not so much enablers, as that are the outer bounds. They are there to indicate when to say no, in the let's pretend gaming session. When a company makes an 'RPG' where opposite characters can both manage equally at the same challenges... Something is really wrong with that game, or that company.

These two should not play about equal in all situations:

Were they managing equally for the same exact reasons though?

And I thought the skills basically replacing the stats was okay in Skyrim. It was just a different system of doing things on a machine that's not necessary bound by the same limitations as the pen and paper system. A system which you basically had to do that way (though I'm sure there were other ways) since everything had to be written down to keep track of it.

The system in Skyrim, since it's more focused on the skills you're using, I'd say allows you to RP a little more open and freer in some regards and allows you to RP a little closer to your character. But that's obviously a matter of one's own tastes as to whether someone finds that good or not. I'm sure that system could have been ironed out a little better too.

 

[Swastakowey]

Video guy complained about removing stats from Oblivion -> Skyrim. Which is actually a really good thing considering they sucked ass and were annoying to plan around with.

Thankfully a similar thing happened from F3 -> F4 when Beth took out the boring skill system and made it all perk-based

That's not Fallout. Also... Stats and skills are there to define a character; they are not so much enablers, as that are the outer bounds. They are there to indicate when to say no, in the let's pretend gaming session. When a company makes an 'RPG' where opposite characters can both manage equally at the same challenges... Something is really wrong with that game, or that company.

These two should not play about equal in all situations:

Were they managing equally for the same exact reasons though?

And I thought the skills basically replacing the stats was okay in Skyrim. It was just a different system of doing things on a machine that's not necessary bound by the same limitations as the pen and paper system. A system which you basically had to do that way (though I'm sure there were other ways) since everything had to be written down to keep track of it.

The system in Skyrim, since it's more focused on the skills you're using, I'd say allows you to RP a little more open and freer in some regards and allows you to RP a little closer to your character. But that's obviously a matter of one's own tastes as to whether someone finds that good or not. I'm sure that system could have been ironed out a little better too.

The reason you have character creation in an RPG is more than just a record.

Say I am going to RP a farmer called up to fight in the local militia. I THEN go on to make my character. Now a farmer in say ancient greece is not going to be well educated so I go for low intelligence. He however likely has great outdoor skills and has a decent build due to years of farm work. So I up those. Maybe he was the one who took food to the market on weekends for sale so he learned to converse with people over time so I up charisma. Maybe he has bad eyesight and thus you lower his relevant stat. See how it goes? You don't have time to RP your characters life story and genes. So set the framework for your character which equals how you see him at the time and his whole life.

In Skyrim you start of as a walking talking baby. It doesn't care if you are a poor uneducated farmer, or an ex diplomat or anything. You are literally a walking talking baby. You have to learn everything, you aren't bad with anything at the beginning of the game.

Skills are there so you can make your character then have the world react to it. If you are a doctor in Skyrim the world doesn't care at all. If you are a doctor in fallout 1 the world does care, because it then gives you options in world based on those skills, it also means you are always ahead on those doctoring skills from the get go. You can simulate learning skills over time by upgrading the skills you need (if you lacks something you need most people will practice to overcome that need).

In skyrim you have no character. Just a named skin where you choose the load out.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

The system in Skyrim, since it's more focused on the skills you're using, I'd say allows you to RP a little more open and freer in some regards and allows you to RP a little closer to your character.

So if I make a first person shooter, is it a good RPG because you can just *pretend* like you are a stealthy thief despite it having no real impact in the game world? By this logic, I can role play in Metro by saying I'm a thief build simply because I'm imagining it.

In Morrowind people would downright refuse to talk to you if you were a certain type of character. Others would treat you better. Quests were suited to particular character types.

 

[Someguy37]

You must also find it funny that the top comment for that video is someone asking him to do another one for Fallout 4 because most of us see it for what it is - dumbed down and mediocre.

I also find it funny that you think it's possible to "debunk" an opinion. He actually made another video in response to the fanboy backlash from the first. The fact is fanboys can't stand the thought of someone disliking things they like.

"most of us", you mean the NMA crowd that has largely become the laughing stock of the internet for totally misguided and irrational hatred of things only surpassed by RPGCodex? Yeah, that's not really a compliment.

I wasn't talking about his opinions actually, I was talking about statements he made about things in-game that are known to be done for a certain reason, which he gets wrong.

 

[Crni Vuk]

That's not Fallout. Also... Stats and skills are there to define a character; they are not so much enablers, as that are the outer bounds. They are there to indicate when to say no, in the let's pretend gaming session. When a company makes an 'RPG' where opposite characters can both manage equally at the same challenges... Something is really wrong with that game, or that company.

These two should not play about equal in all situations:

I disagree, my experience in playing my Two-Handed Orc Warrior in Skyrim was extremely different from my Thief/Archer Khajiit in the same game

And this WITHOUT needing stats

And ... in which way did the game reflect that? And dont tell me it was the animation of killing NPCs because your two-handed Orc Warrior used a two-handed sword while your Thief/Archer Khajiit used a bow ...

In which way have the quests or the dialogues in game changed based on your choice of race or fighting? You're not role playing a character in Skyrim. You're pretending to role play while you ... kill stuff.

 

[frajaq]

Ultimately you did as much RPGing in Skyrim it seems as I did in Starwars Battlefront 2: "I shot them with a shotgun for a hours, then went back and killed them with a rocket launcher for more hours but this time I refused to fight for CIS!"

Incorrect. But feel free to keep making hyperboles in your counter-arguments, it's the NMA standard after all

 

[Swastakowey]

Ultimately you did as much RPGing in Skyrim it seems as I did in Starwars Battlefront 2: "I shot them with a shotgun for a hours, then went back and killed them with a rocket launcher for more hours but this time I refused to fight for CIS!"

Incorrect. But feel free to keep making hyperboles in your counter-arguments, it's the NMA standard after all

Explain how I am incorrect.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

You must also find it funny that the top comment for that video is someone asking him to do another one for Fallout 4 because most of us see it for what it is - dumbed down and mediocre.

I also find it funny that you think it's possible to "debunk" an opinion. He actually made another video in response to the fanboy backlash from the first. The fact is fanboys can't stand the thought of someone disliking things they like.

"most of us", you mean the NMA crowd that has largely become the laughing stock of the internet for totally misguided and irrational hatred of things only surpassed by RPGCodex? Yeah, that's not really a compliment.

I wasn't talking about his opinions actually, I was talking about statements he made about things in-game that are known to be done for a certain reason, which he gets wrong.

Just face it. Fallout 4 has user scores of 5.3, 5.9, and 6.4 across all platforms. People are starting to realize Bethesda's games are losing more and more of what made them special. More people find Fallout 4 to be mediocre drivel rather than the second coming of Christ.

And this coming from me - someone who liked Oblivion and Fallout 3.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Where are you guys actually coming from? Shouldn't you be bussy playing Fallout 4 or something, deeply invested in that rich role playing experience or something like that?

 

[Gizmojunk]

Were they managing equally for the same exact reasons though?

How exactly do you mean 'equally'? There is a difference between success by another path, and success by negligible variance.

And I thought the skills basically replacing the stats was okay in Skyrim. It was just a different system of doing things on a machine that's not necessary bound by the same limitations as the pen and paper system. A system which you basically had to do that way (though I'm sure there were other ways) since everything had to be written down to keep track of it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean ~exactly. There are no practical limitations about stats or skill abilities; and it certainly was not some kind of "settling for less due to limits". Stats are imperative mechanics for RPGs; they define the character's mental, physical, and social domain. It's what differentiates the Tony Cliftons from the Tony Robbins' in the world ~even though both would be experienced public speakers; a 'Public Speaking' ~perk, is not enough for that.

The system in Skyrim, since it's more focused on the skills you're using, I'd say allows you to RP a little more open and freer in some regards and allows you to RP a little closer to your character.

How does the game engine know what is closer to your character? (How can it react accordingly?)
How can the player know what is closer to their character; and how to act accordingly?

The grand selection of multiple choices that exist in RPGs is [ideally] not there for the whim of the player's mood, but there for them to choose closest to what their current character would identify with at the time, in that situation. If the player makes it all up as they go along... can they ever distinguish what's not in character?

 

[5545Trey]

For the benefit of which player? (Fallout or Elder Scrolls?)

Video guy complained about removing stats from Oblivion -> Skyrim. Which is actually a really good thing considering they sucked ass and were annoying to plan around with.

This line of thinking is just plain stupid, really. It is practically the same argument used to argue that the removal of skills (Fallout 4) is a "good" thing.

Incorrect. But feel free to keep making hyperboles in your counter-arguments, it's the NMA standard after all

Yet, you cannot even point out the flaws of your arguments.

 

[Someguy37]

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

"Call of Duty is a great role playing game because it allows you to pretend to be a thief or an Orc Warrior simply by pretending to be one."

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

Well if it makes you feel better I deleted that part in order to be nice.

 

[fakeangel]

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well playing Call of Duty only with a knive totally changes the experience. So there is a form of role playing