What I want to see implimented.

You severely doubt the amount of intelligence and creativity people have. The nukes aren't going to suddenly make people fucking retarded. People have been making gunpowder for thousands of years, and guns since the Renaissance, using primers for atleast the past hundred odd years. Are people going to be manufacturing bullets in the days following the war? No. Are they in the weeks after? probably not. Months? maybe. Year? Likely. Two or three years? yes, they will.

Is every book going to be destroyed? Every piece of machinery? Every means of generating power?

Bows have been dead for fucking centuries, and they only exist now for nerds to harp about their fucking honor or some shit, or think they're cool, or for other nerds to go hunting with or some other performance thing.
 
Alesia said:
Dehydrated: 1 year
Freeze dried: 10 years
Canned: Indefinite so long as it's stored at the above mentioned frozen temperatures.
The colder, the longer it can last. That makes reactions slower, so even its natural decay will be delayed. Bacteria are affected too, they're slower to grow and reproduce under cold conditions. But I only thought of normal conditions, like when you find edible food in a shack. Maybe in a working vault it could last indefinitely.
 
Wintermind said:
You severely doubt the amount of intelligence and creativity people have. The nukes aren't going to suddenly make people fucking retarded. People have been making gunpowder for thousands of years, and guns since the Renaissance, using primers for atleast the past hundred odd years. Are people going to be manufacturing bullets in the days following the war? No. Are they in the weeks after? probably not. Months? maybe. Year? Likely. Two or three years? yes, they will.

Is every book going to be destroyed? Every piece of machinery? Every means of generating power?

Bows have been dead for fucking centuries, and they only exist now for nerds to harp about their fucking honor or some shit, or think they're cool, or for other nerds to go hunting with or some other performance thing.

Yes I do doubt most people's skills. seriously doubt them. I am as a friend of mine puts it a man a 1000 years apart, as I am interested in natural and primitive skill's, but I also work as a Unix & Windows Admin.

Most people today can't light a fire, go on at a BBQ ask if some one other than you without using Google can light a fire without BBQ Fluid, most can't (an a great number can't with the fluid). An fire is humanities most basic tool, I personally know metal workers who can't light a fire and use Gas powered forges for there work, that's a job that requires fire to happen.

And the point of the BBQ? Most people in society today only have skills that work for today's society. Very few of them are usable outside of the field they work in, an even then most of the skill's need modern tech to use that knowledge.

For instance a metal worker today as I said before is used to ordering X tweaking Y resulting in Z. But a metal worker 60 let alone 100 years ago knows what the ore looks like, what the temp is to smelt it and the way to make his own tools from basic materials. A even better example is, my own Dad.

My Dad is a Nuclear Engineer. But he got his engineering root's working in a boiler fitters after school in the 50's, he attended Collage and joined the growth industry as a Welder in the mid 60's, today? Well he is a Decommissioning engineer, and one of the plants he is due to help pull apart is one of the ones he helped make. And at the moment they are starting to lay ground work.
A few weeks ago my Dad is sitting in the back of a meeting regarding some form of pipe, and it needed a special kind of bolt it was a L shape with a bit of a bend, the young guys started saying Where are we going to get that let's just knock a hole though this 8ft concrete wall, or where calling suppliers to see if they had anything that would match, and crys of we can't make that, etc this was time sensitive on this part of the job.
What did my Dad an his mates at the back of the room do? The walked up read the pipe map, talk for 5 min and drew up machinists plans to make the bolt.

The point of this example? in a single generation we have gone from Let's make it we can do it faster an cheaper than buying it in, to We don't have the knowledge, this was from people around my age 25-30. My Dad a engineer has seen the industry gone from "yea we can do it" grads to "I have no idea and wont try" grads, today they have little experience fabricating things.
Now I was lucky, my dad taught me cool things when I was a kid and I asked questions. I can read most Engineering plans, Circuit Diagrams, use a Milling machine, Lathe, MIG an ACR welders etc. My own personal education has lead me down the path of having a interest in primitive skills.

The point is this is in one life time skills in a society have gone lets do it, to can't be done. Just because you are called a Engineer today wont mean you are one tomorrow. Hell my Dad an my Swedish uncle taught me how to smelt Bog Iron, as part of a summer project in school we only made a small ingot but was invaluable to me, and was awesome at the same time. And beyond that I have attended a agricultural collage, an I have a basic grounding of farming skills, an methods.

So yea I was lucky with my skills, but will every one be the same? Or after the bombs have dropped will they pick over what is left while waiting for the government to come back? even if you survived the blast, there is a good chance you wont survive very long after. As for book's yea some will survive, but how many of them would be 50 shades of grey an how many of them would be metal work for dummies?
And beyond that how many kids learn English well enough to be able to read more than basic day to day English, how about Maths beyond addition an Subtraction etc?
 
That depends on the people, rather than the available knowledge. If you want to learn how to make weapons (and you are probably forced to, given the rather unfriendly atmosphere of the wasteland), you can learn the manual off by heart from front to back within a few days. You are not preparing to pass a series of exams, but actually use your acquired knowledge in a practical situation.
 
You seem to fail to recognize that people are astoundingly intelligent. And have been. For thousands of years, humanity, has, on the whole, proven it's a collection of real clever cocksuckers.
 
Maybe the people of the Fallout universe weren't as just utterly fucking stupid as most Americans under the age of 40 in the modern world. People today, I walk in a store and ask an employee where I can find a shopping cart and they're like "uh what's that?" AND THEY'RE LEANING ON ONE! Jeez look at this country, you think if the apocalypse happened tomorrow they would learn to survive? They'd either waste away, riot and pillage, or sit around waiting for the government to come give them a hand-out.

In conclusion, yes I do fail to recognize human beings as intelligent...
 
Blablabla people are so stupid today bla bla whatever. Früher war alles besser (In the past, everything was better)!, as we like to say in Germany. What a fucking joke.
The first thing that's going to be built up after a nuclear war is ingenuity. It's not like craftmanship is some magic mojo that was only available to humans until 198x (or the generation coming after the person you're asking). When people need to build stuff, they'll do it. And what they build will be shitty at first, but hey, guess what? Humans can learn, it's kinda what we do.
/edit:
This comic is very, very true.
 
People are stupid as all hell, the only reason things are so great right now is because the people before us accidently found out things about the world and taught the next generation about it so they could accidently find out more things about the world instead of learning the same things over and over again. When all that recorded knowledge is wiped away by atomic fire the people left in the aftermath are going to have to learn the very basics all over again and build upon that. Humanity will start again from the stone age.
 
Some people are stupid. Some are smart.
And finding out things by accident is very inefficient. There's something we call „science“ that works a lot better than that.
 
Hassknecht said:
Some people are stupid. Some are smart.
And finding out things by accident is very inefficient. There's something we call „science“ that works a lot better than that.

Its basically by accident. Science is based around trying things until something happens.

Were all pretty stupid. Smarter than the rest of the animals, sure, but I dont think we are nearly as smart as we as a species would like to think. After the war we are not going to simply start figuring out quantum physics again because we are "smart", we are going to have to spend decades learning algebra first, and how to farm efficiently before that.
 
BonusWaffle said:
Hassknecht said:
Some people are stupid. Some are smart.
And finding out things by accident is very inefficient. There's something we call „science“ that works a lot better than that.

Its basically by accident. Science is based around trying things until something happens.

Were all pretty stupid. Smarter than the rest of the animals, sure, but I dont think we are nearly as smart as we as a species would like to think. After the war we are not going to simply start figuring out quantum physics again because we are "smart", we are going to have to spend decades learning algebra first, and how to farm efficiently before that.
I guess you're not a scientist... It's a little more refined than just fooling around.
Anyway. It's not like every written record would miraculously disappear. A nuclear war does not destroy every single building in every single village and many libraries will remain. Especially in villages.
After the initial struggle for survival is over, stable societies will form again, and humanity will start to build up again. It would take a while to get to our current level again, but it would happen.
 
Hassknecht said:
Some people are stupid. Some are smart.

This would be eliminated if a nuclear war happened. If you aren't the toughest, smartest sob out there, you're dead meat. You are not protected by laws and social welfare programs.
 
You are, though. The tribe was the original socialist unit. Everyone survives by the survival of everyone else. You don't have to be a genius or a skilled hunter, you just have to have something to offer to the group. A lot of skills and trades would be lost to the dearth of knowledgeable practitioners and usable materials and to their lack of applicability to the immediate situation. It doesn't take a lot of brains to scavenge or to work a field, it doesn't take knowledge of gunsmithing or advanced metallurgy to defend yourself against the beasts and the elements, and the true survivor recognizes the strength that comes with numbers.

Yes, the strong prey on the weak, but they're typically smart enough to know they need someone to prey on, and to not want to lose their strength through attrition. Why do you think Shady Sands and Junktown were on constant watch for raiders? The raiders were some of the toughest SOBs out there (and they probably had the firepower and numbers to take both towns with a fight), but they were cunning enough not to kill the golden goose and/or didn't feel like soaking up the losses that assaulting a settlement of that size would incur.

Key fields of knowledge would be re-discovered as time went on, but predator/prey and have/have not dynamics would remain the same, as they ever have. Hence, war never changes.
 
Hassknecht said:
BonusWaffle said:
Hassknecht said:
Some people are stupid. Some are smart.
And finding out things by accident is very inefficient. There's something we call „science“ that works a lot better than that.

Its basically by accident. Science is based around trying things until something happens.

Were all pretty stupid. Smarter than the rest of the animals, sure, but I dont think we are nearly as smart as we as a species would like to think. After the war we are not going to simply start figuring out quantum physics again because we are "smart", we are going to have to spend decades learning algebra first, and how to farm efficiently before that.
I guess you're not a scientist... It's a little more refined than just fooling around.
Anyway. It's not like every written record would miraculously disappear. A nuclear war does not destroy every single building in every single village and many libraries will remain. Especially in villages.
After the initial struggle for survival is over, stable societies will form again, and humanity will start to build up again. It would take a while to get to our current level again, but it would happen.

Especially considering there are numerous, numerous back ups of useful, existing information in various forms. There is no doubt some top secret, hidden back up the Library Of Congress, built during the Cold War.

And Science, for the most part, is not about throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. It may come down to that, at points, like Edison making his lightbulb, where a mix of determination and clever-cocksucker-ness kept him on the path till he figured that shit out properly.
 
Wintermind said:
Especially considering there are numerous, numerous back ups of useful, existing information in various forms. There is no doubt some top secret, hidden back up the Library Of Congress, built during the Cold War.

I still dont buy your argument that we are somehow going to magically know how to farm and survive without modern equipment any better than the generations before us simply because we are smart.

Electronically recorded information will be useless, whatever small amount of written knowledge we have on how to do these things will probably be destroyed, and somehow I doubt that the remnants of the government will have the ability to distribute the information in this super secret cache you seem to think exists AND has the capability to survive a modern nuclear war.

And my oversimplification of what is involved in "science" is irrelevant to my argument. I'm not going to write you an essay on everything I say just so you don't get confused.
 
I don't buy your argument that despite historical precedents, access to information, preserved equipment and just old human ingenuity we are somehow magically forget how to tie our shoes, or be unable to farm or even realize that banding together results in more survivality.
 
And just how much of that information do you think will have survived, and in a accessible form?

Or let's go back to examine the basics, most people can't light a fire with matches or a lighter, let alone with a ferro rod or even more primitive methods.
How about water? Most people can't identify drinkable water, or how to sterilise / filter water. How about edible plants? These are essential skill's, and some people will have that knowledge and some will have survived the war, but lot's of people don't have the first clue, because they don't need that knowledge and it takes time to learn, do you think so many copys of "Survival for Dummies" will have survive?

Now on more advanced skill's, Let's assume for a moment that they wont need to scavenge Ore to smelt they have lot's of metal just sitting round in the form of car's for steel, Copper in the form of wire etc... how do you think they will go about learning to smelt it? and before that how about transporting it to the smelter in the first place? Sure man power will go some way to moving the scrap but how many people will it take to move 1 Ton 1 Mile? Well according to Mr.Google it's any ware from 10 - 20 people depending on the terrain, Geometry of the load, is it on wheel's?, it it pulled or pushed?

But that is inconsequential to the supply logistics needed to support such a operation, on average you need 2 litres of water per-person per day. Now that's 20 litres of water per day for 10 men doing just about nothing but light work, when physical excretion and hot weather conditions are taken into account that will sky rocket. That's just water, how about food? That isn't common in the wasteland, and salvaging scrap is labour intensive, I am not sure about the real mathematics in this but let's go off what we know a salad wont cut it, it's going to be Grains, Meats and Fats high impact foods. Looking at the MRE weights that's 1.5KG of food dried goods are not really included in that. But it's in a nice sealed foil pouch reducing weight too and they are not common outside of military bases or surplus shops, so it's back to scavenged, hunted or farmed foods, an there associated supply chains.

So that's 20 litres of water and 15KG of food, for 10 people per day on the scavenging team. Alone if they are just loading up and travelling with 1 ton of scrap in ideal solid flat ground for 1 mile.
So let's think how problematic that can get for bigger operations or longer distance scavenging.

In this case I have limited myself to 1 mile for simplicity, but how long before that one mile radius is picked clean? And they have to travel longer distances to get valuable scrap, say a day's travel unloaded with scrap.

And the above is assuming a few things:
1) The same people doing the moving are the ones doing the real salvage work.
2) They are only carrying food, tools and basic weapons.
3) This is assuming they are well supplied and can be provided with the food and equipment.

There is alot that needs to come together to make this operation come together logistically alone, and that is the "Harvesting" phase alone. Let alone any basic form of production, entailing more people etc.
 
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