What kind of weapons do you want to see in F3?

[Sander]

No actually, not nearly "most" of the metal objects we have lying around are aluminium.

And no you dont need an anvil, any hard flat surface will do, of course an anvil is better. No need to purify anything, most kinds of steel out there are hard enough to make good knives/swords. Compared to midevil steel, theyre more than excellent. And no you most defenitly dont need any special hammer. I once saw a documentary of an afghan gun smith, he made beautiful bolt action rifles (I think enfield copies), he had no anvil, he put the guns on the floor and banged on them with a hammer. He made AK parts by putting this template type thing over sheets of metal and then banging the shape out.

Any knowledge you couldnt get from books, you can learn by trial and error, this is not rocket science.

Again: this takes time, and a lot of trouble. Especially with a fucked up source of iron, which also requires more effort to melt than pure ore.

If you can forge an axe blade, you can forge a sword, difference being more metal (plenty of that) and swords being more effective.

No, if you can forge an axe you can forge an axe. Full stop.
Forging a sword isn't just more of the same, because a shitload of balance issues come into place. Unless you go the 'throw everything in a sword-like shape' route you are suggesting.
But then comes the issue: what's the use of such a sword? You can bash in heads...and that's it. In a post-apocalyptic universe, you don't want to spend making time making things with such a limited use. You'd be much, much better off making axes, knives or other tools that can also easily be used as weapons. Which is exactly what happens in a post-apocalyptic world.

Farming tools were probably used by farmers who had to fight, but not by soldiers.

They were also used by soldiers who were recruited by their landlords, for instance. Professional soldiers had to spend money on their gear, though, so were more likely to carry axes and spears.
However, this is the post-apocalyptic world we're talking about. Most people carry a gun, those that don't but still make a living as a raider or a guard are very few and far between, and then will generally use sledgehammers and the like.

The best weapons of those times was the sword.
The reason not everyone got one was the high cost.

And the fact that it was very difficult to make, and the fact that it would only serve one purpose as opposed to an axe, or a knife. A spear also had only one use, but was significantly easier to make and could be much better used for hunting.

In a world full of scrap metal, making a sword would not cost much at all.

Man-hours cost money as well.

You would not even have to forge one, you could easily find yourself a suitable piece of metal and sharpen it with a heavy duty file.

And now you get into the makeshift shitty weapons. See: a club.

 

[Lord 342]

I think (and this has been gone over before but people don't like to read old threads) that the problem comes up is that when you get to the point where you can smith a really good sword that is more than a big knife or a machete -i.e. a proper, battle-ready sword like a Katana or what have you, you've got more than enough skill to smith a musket, which has a zillion more uses than a sword.

Killing people/stuff from far away > killing people/stuff up close.

So you would see a lot of small and big knives, either surviving pre-war pieces or fresh-made stuff of varying quality (from a sharpened chunk of scrap to a nicely smithed knife or dagger, as such has several uses). You would also see axes, both pre- and post-war, as an axe is both a formidable weapon and a more useful tool thana sword (you can chop wood with an axe, turn it over and get a crude sledgehammer, etc.), plust it is easier to learn to use. There is no reason at all, except as a fun excercise, for someone to smith a sword. And most people won't have time or raw materials to smith a sword for fun.

There is, however, a precedent for long-bladed weapons -Machetes, certain tools, for instance the blade of a scythe is long and curved, and nobody in a scavenging society is going to ignore a nice factory-made edge just because it's on the wrong handle to kill someone with. In fact turning scythes into weapons is an old practice. There are even swords like the US Cavalry sabre (the real ones form the early part of last century, not the ceremonial ones) that have a reason to exist in the US, but I can't imagine many of these surviving another couple centuries unless someone has cared for them.

Given my druthers I'd put in such weapons (knives long enough to be a "short sword", like an arkansas toothpick, machetes, repurposed scythes and other blades) alongside much more common axes and hammers and such, and a very few (no more than 2 or 3 types in only a handful of places) proper swords, as a few could have realistically survived but would have little use (in terms of survival I'd rather carry a long-handled axe versus a sword as the axe is a more complete survival tool).

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Fallout has already established that there's plenty of guns and ammo to be had, even a simple farmer has access to a powerful pistol to give you as a reward. So there's no need for people to reinvent the sword. Swords require training to use effectively and are complex to make and as several threads have covered they have little other use unlike an axe.

Besides post apocalypse constructed weapons have already been seen in the game. What homemade weapons did they make? Pipeguns, and propellant for bullets, NOT SWORDS! While the Bos and enclave are re-engineering energy weapons, again NOT SWORDS!

Petition for swords to be added to the proscribed topics list along with FOOL etc.

 

[Lord 342]

I don't think they should be prohibited discussion, just kept rational. There's no reason for medieval broaswords or baskets full of Katanas in Fallout, but a long-bladed weapon like a Machete or a single Katana is not setting-breaking.

But you also have a good point about the prevelance of ammunition and firearms making swords even less worthwhile. It takes less skill to make a crude firearm and not that much more to make a good one, and significantly more common tools (the Sten was often whipped up in bicycle shops, and I'd much rather have a Sten than any class of sword) to make a decent one. I gaurantee you machine tools are much more common than forging equipment, and the skills to operate them more common than the skill of smithing.

 

[Morbus]

Sten? What model?

 

[Lord 342]

Undoubtedly the simple MKII Sten. It was designed with simple manufacture in mind. I believe you can still purchase plans to make them from survivalist catalogs and the like. Surely someone would turn up such plans and eventually find the means necessary to produce the plucky little weapon. The 9mm ammunition is ubiquidous.

 

[Sander]

Yep, those plans can still be bought.

What's more, creating ammo and a zip-gun for that ammo is also exceedingly simple. This procedure would probably be known to anyone with even a slight passing interest in survivalism, let alone the nuts who hide in the mountains.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

or a single Katana is not setting-breaking.

Yes it bloody would! This has been gone over again and again. Katanas do no fit, not a single one. I don't care what US troops or tourists brought back with them from Asia in the 40's and 50's, the Fallout setting isn't about souvenir trash.

Take your fingers out of your ears and stop going la la la and read the threads, a katana does no fit the setting!

 

[Gimpster]

No actually, not nearly "most" of the metal objects we have lying around are aluminium.

And no you dont need an anvil, any hard flat surface will do, of course an anvil is better. No need to purify anything, most kinds of steel out there are hard enough to make good knives/swords. Compared to midevil steel, theyre more than excellent. And no you most defenitly dont need any special hammer. I once saw a documentary of an afghan gun smith, he made beautiful bolt action rifles (I think enfield copies), he had no anvil, he put the guns on the floor and banged on them with a hammer. He made AK parts by putting this template type thing over sheets of metal and then banging the shape out.

Any knowledge you couldnt get from books, you can learn by trial and error, this is not rocket science.

Again: this takes time, and a lot of trouble. Especially with a fucked up source of iron, which also requires more effort to melt than pure ore.

If you can forge an axe blade, you can forge a sword, difference being more metal (plenty of that) and swords being more effective.

No, if you can forge an axe you can forge an axe. Full stop.
Forging a sword isn't just more of the same, because a shitload of balance issues come into place. Unless you go the 'throw everything in a sword-like shape' route you are suggesting.
But then comes the issue: what's the use of such a sword? You can bash in heads...and that's it. In a post-apocalyptic universe, you don't want to spend making time making things with such a limited use. You'd be much, much better off making axes, knives or other tools that can also easily be used as weapons. Which is exactly what happens in a post-apocalyptic world.

Farming tools were probably used by farmers who had to fight, but not by soldiers.

They were also used by soldiers who were recruited by their landlords, for instance. Professional soldiers had to spend money on their gear, though, so were more likely to carry axes and spears.
However, this is the post-apocalyptic world we're talking about. Most people carry a gun, those that don't but still make a living as a raider or a guard are very few and far between, and then will generally use sledgehammers and the like.

The best weapons of those times was the sword.
The reason not everyone got one was the high cost.

And the fact that it was very difficult to make, and the fact that it would only serve one purpose as opposed to an axe, or a knife. A spear also had only one use, but was significantly easier to make and could be much better used for hunting.

In a world full of scrap metal, making a sword would not cost much at all.

Man-hours cost money as well.

You would not even have to forge one, you could easily find yourself a suitable piece of metal and sharpen it with a heavy duty file.

And now you get into the makeshift shitty weapons. See: a club.

Why are you so hellbent on melting and purifying iron ore? with high grade steel everywhere in cars, building etc why do you want to melt it?

You can just find a suitable piece of it and then heat it till its red and then pound it into whatever you want, you dont actually have to build a steel mill.

And no you dont have to balance it perfectly, how well balanced is a sledgehammer or axe for that matter? you arent gonna be fencing with it exactly, youre gonna whack people with it.

The use for it is as a weapon, the best melee weapon was a sword back then and still is. Even a makeshift sword is better than a makeshift axe, bigger cutting surface. Also harder to grab than an axe (sharp edge would fuck up a hand that tried).

The advange over an axe wouldnt be huge, but it would be there.
I would likely just grab a fire axe or baseball bat or something similar if I needed a weapon and there were no firearms around, but if I was gonna make something, I would go for something sharp and big.


Youre gonna be spending time making axes and other stuff that already exist?

PS. I belive the easiest and most effective firearms to make is pipe rifle, You can make one out of water pipe and shoot shotgun shells with it. Devastating up close.

The zip gun, easy as it is to make are usually made and used by criminals who cant afford real weapons, usually used for robbing/threating people with. It would be very hard (not impossible) to kill an adult with one, so not very effective.

Fallout has already established that there's plenty of guns and ammo to be had, even a simple farmer has access to a powerful pistol to give you as a reward. So there's no need for people to reinvent the sword. Swords require training to use effectively and are complex to make and as several threads have covered they have little other use unlike an axe.

Besides post apocalypse constructed weapons have already been seen in the game. What homemade weapons did they make? Pipeguns, and propellant for bullets, NOT SWORDS! While the Bos and enclave are re-engineering energy weapons, again NOT SWORDS!

Petition for swords to be added to the proscribed topics list along with FOOL etc.

Actually if you read sorrows list of guns in fallout 2, you will see that there arent that many guns in FO2, not for common people anyway.

And yeah in FO2 they farmer guy outside vault city does give you a Desert Eagle pistol, but then again FO2 has Katanas in it.

And swords dont take special training to use, not unless you want to pull some fancy fencing moves against some other fencing guy, you can just use them like you would an axe, for hacking.


You could argue that swords dont belong in the fallout world for any numbers of reason, many of them in my opinion more valid than made up one like:"you need special training" and "can not be made! impossible!".

Like for instance you could argue that they dont belong in the setting, and I would sort of agree (you might have noticed there are no swords in my FOT mod).

I always imagined a post apocalyptic world specially one where hydrogen bombs were used, there would be plenty of other weapons around, like axes and machetes and such, and fire arms too for that matter. reloading spent brass is not that hard.

However I think there could be a good scenario for home made knives and swords, if the hero in fallout came across some tribe of insane cannibals in the desert. Sort of like the reavers in that movie serenity.
People who would kill, rape and eat their victims, in that order if they were lucky, and their home made knives/swords wouldnt be worth picking up.
I

 

[Sander]

Why are you so hellbent on melting and purifying iron ore? with high grade steel everywhere in cars, building etc why do you want to melt it?

Because, you know, that's how you *smithe* something.

You can just find a suitable piece of it and then heat it till its red and then pound it into whatever you want, you dont actually have to build a steel mill.

Yes, this *could* work.

And no you dont have to balance it perfectly, how well balanced is a sledgehammer or axe for that matter? you arent gonna be fencing with it exactly, youre gonna whack people with it.

And then why don't people just use a club, hammer or axe?

The use for it is as a weapon, the best melee weapon was a sword back then and still is.
Even a makeshift sword is better than a makeshift axe, bigger cutting surface.

The best weapon was a *sword*, yes, not a sharpened piece of metal.
The cutting surface is the only remaining relevant bit for your 'grab a piece of iron' idea, and even that isn't a big enough advantage to spend time on creating that as opposed to something that would actually have *multiple uses*.

Also harder to grab than an axe (sharp edge would fuck up a hand that tried).

It being harder to grab isn't exactly the point. It's not like people can stop a axe or hammer in full-swing coming at them with their bare hands.

The advange over an axe wouldnt be huge, but it would be there.
I would likely just grab a fire axe or baseball bat or something similar if I needed a weapon and there were no firearms around, but if I was gonna make something, I would go for something sharp and big.

Because big is automagically much better?
Bullshite.

Youre gonna be spending time making axes and other stuff that already exist?

If you can't find them, yes, because you actually *need* those things.
Other than that, why the hell would you spend time making something that can be replaced by something much more useful anyway?

The zip gun, easy as it is to make are usually made and used by criminals who cant afford real weapons, usually used for robbing/threating people with. It would be very hard (not impossible) to kill an adult with one, so not very effective.

Not really. A bullet is still a bullet, you know, and the velocity at which it will go is still high enough to kill people.

 

[Kahgan]

Gimpster, are you an experienced blacksmith? Have you ever tried making a three inch knife blade? Have you even tried shaping hot iron?

If you cannot answer yes to at least two of these questions, you should shut the fuck up because you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Again people aren't making melee weapons in Fallout, there's loads of prewar shit available. Probably the BoS and Vaults are reproducing prewar designs of (non energy) weapons as trade items.

Are you really going to make a clumsy sword and train yourself to use it when most people you meet have guns and you can trade for a Brotherhood made supersledge?

Probably the only reason someone made a piperifle was they found a bunch of old ammo they didn't have a gun for and they were too far away to travel to a trading post and needed a weapon now. Most likely the only thing of value they had to trade was the ammo itself anyway.

Axes, have uses outside of combat, if someone's that hard up they have to make their own weapon they'll want one that's easy to use and has other uses. Likewise guns can be used to hunt. Even spears (if you include FO2 & FOT weapons) can be used for hunting/fishing. But swords have only one use, and not the most practical (for the uninitiated) of weapons at that.

 

[Gimpster]

Why are you so hellbent on melting and purifying iron ore? with high grade steel everywhere in cars, building etc why do you want to melt it?

Because, you know, that's how you *smithe* something.

You can just find a suitable piece of it and then heat it till its red and then pound it into whatever you want, you dont actually have to build a steel mill.

Yes, this *could* work.

And no you dont have to balance it perfectly, how well balanced is a sledgehammer or axe for that matter? you arent gonna be fencing with it exactly, youre gonna whack people with it.

And then why don't people just use a club, hammer or axe?

The use for it is as a weapon, the best melee weapon was a sword back then and still is.
Even a makeshift sword is better than a makeshift axe, bigger cutting surface.

The best weapon was a *sword*, yes, not a sharpened piece of metal.
The cutting surface is the only remaining relevant bit for your 'grab a piece of iron' idea, and even that isn't a big enough advantage to spend time on creating that as opposed to something that would actually have *multiple uses*.

Also harder to grab than an axe (sharp edge would fuck up a hand that tried).

It being harder to grab isn't exactly the point. It's not like people can stop a axe or hammer in full-swing coming at them with their bare hands.

The advange over an axe wouldnt be huge, but it would be there.
I would likely just grab a fire axe or baseball bat or something similar if I needed a weapon and there were no firearms around, but if I was gonna make something, I would go for something sharp and big.

Because big is automagically much better?
Bullshite.

Youre gonna be spending time making axes and other stuff that already exist?

If you can't find them, yes, because you actually *need* those things.
Other than that, why the hell would you spend time making something that can be replaced by something much more useful anyway?

The zip gun, easy as it is to make are usually made and used by criminals who cant afford real weapons, usually used for robbing/threating people with. It would be very hard (not impossible) to kill an adult with one, so not very effective.

Not really. A bullet is still a bullet, you know, and the velocity at which it will go is still high enough to kill people.

"Smithe", no such word exists. I assume you mean smithing or smite, according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithing

A smith, or metalsmith, is a person involved in the shaping of metal objects.

In pre-industrialized times, smiths held high or special social standing since they supplied the metal tools needed for farming (especially the plough) and warfare.

The word smith is cognate with the somewhat archaic English (Germanic) word, "smite", meaning "to hit" or "to strike". Originally, smiths practiced their crafts by forming metal with hammer blows. In this sense, the English word predates the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain.

To shape a metal object. Again as Ive said repeatedly you dont actually have to melt metal to shape it, Its much easier not to melt them.


Why dont I use an axe or club, again as I said earlier, swords would be more effective. Bigger is usually better when it comes to weapons yes.

Why would I spend time making a sword and not an axe, again, swords are more effective.

A bullet is not a bullet there are many different calibers with different ballistics. A 9 mm pistol round dosent do 1/10th of the damage a proper rifle round will do. Thats how you get Mr 50 cent with 8 9mm rounds in his ass and alive and kicking.

and thats why some heavy duty buck shot or a slug is much much more lethal (at close range).

You can compare the weight of the projectiles and the size of the propellant in different kinds of ammo to get an idea.

 

[Gimpster]

Gimpster, are you an experienced blacksmith? Have you ever tried making a three inch knife blade? Have you even tried shaping hot iron?

If you cannot answer yes to at least two of these questions, you should shut the fuck up because you don't know what you are talking about.

Whats with the attitude? Talking tough over the internet, that takes a real man.

I made a sword once.
And yes I haved shaped hot iron (although not to make a sword).

Again people aren't making melee weapons in Fallout, there's loads of prewar shit available. Probably the BoS and Vaults are reproducing prewar designs of (non energy) weapons as trade items.

Are you really going to make a clumsy sword and train yourself to use it when most people you meet have guns and you can trade for a Brotherhood made supersledge?

Probably the only reason someone made a piperifle was they found a bunch of old ammo they didn't have a gun for and they were too far away to travel to a trading post and needed a weapon now. Most likely the only thing of value they had to trade was the ammo itself anyway.

Axes, have uses outside of combat, if someone's that hard up they have to make their own weapon they'll want one that's easy to use and has other uses. Likewise guns can be used to hunt. Even spears (if you include FO2 & FOT weapons) can be used for hunting/fishing. But swords have only one use, and not the most practical (for the uninitiated) of weapons at that.

I wouldnt train myself to use a sword.

Check out my wiki link on khukuri knives, those are forged from leaf springs taken from the suspension of trucks.

And theyre usually used as tools, a good heavy knife is almost as good as an axe.

 

[SuAside]

Oh noez! Sander made a spelling error! Call the police! It's only like his third language & all.

Anyway... Metal from cars as you put it is unsuitable for any kind of weapon (with the exception of a crude pigsticker).

I know this how? Because I'm on a forum that also house a cutlery subsection.

So yes, you can make a crude weapon from it, but no, you cant make a decent sword out of it. Smithing is indeed complicated, as the stronger the metal, the easier it breaks when struck sideways. The strength of the blade also modifies how easily it looses it's edge. (amongst other things, but the conclusion is: you simply cant have the best of both worlds)
On top of all this, the manner and speed of cooling down and treating the blade are just as important as the materials used to forge the blade.

 

[Gimpster]

Oh noez! Sander made a spelling error! Call the police! It's only like his third language & all.

Anyway... Metal from cars as you put it is unsuitable for any kind of weapon (with the exception of a crude pigsticker).

I know this how? Because I'm on a forum that also house a cutlery subsection.

So yes, you can make a crude weapon from it, but no, you cant make a decent sword out of it. Smithing is indeed complicated, as the stronger the metal, the easier it breaks when struck sideways. The strength of the blade also modifies how easily it looses it's edge. (amongst other things, but the conclusion is: you simply cant have the best of both worlds)
On top of all this, the manner and speed of cooling down and treating the blade are just as important as the materials used to forge the blade.

Well english if my 3rd language too, out of 4.

I see where this is going, so Im done with this discussion.

 

[Sander]

"Smithe", no such word exists. I assume you mean smithing or smite, according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithing

A smith, or metalsmith, is a person involved in the shaping of metal objects.

In pre-industrialized times, smiths held high or special social standing since they supplied the metal tools needed for farming (especially the plough) and warfare.

The word smith is cognate with the somewhat archaic English (Germanic) word, "smite", meaning "to hit" or "to strike". Originally, smiths practiced their crafts by forming metal with hammer blows. In this sense, the English word predates the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain.

To shape a metal object. Again as Ive said repeatedly you dont actually have to melt metal to shape it, Its much easier not to melt them.

...
Oh god, you're a moron.
Do you know how they came by that metal in the first place?
That's right, by *melting* ore.

Why dont I use an axe or club, again as I said earlier, swords would be more effective.

That's neat, ignoring every argument made in this entire fucking thread.
Yet again: the advantage of a larger 'cutting' surface is only very, very marginal, especially when you take into account a sword like that is harder to wield and has less uses than most other melee weapons.

Bigger is usually better when it comes to weapons yes.

Urgh. A bigger weapon is harder to use elegantly and hence effectively. Bigger is not the same as better.

Why would I spend time making a sword and not an axe, again, swords are more effective.

Again with the ignoring arguments.
What part of 'a sword isn't as useful as any other weapon' did you not get?

A bullet is not a bullet there are many different calibers with different ballistics. A 9 mm pistol round dosent do 1/10th of the damage a proper rifle round will do. Thats how you get Mr 50 cent with 8 9mm rounds in his ass and alive and kicking.

That must also be why there are so many people around that have died from a single 9mm bullet.

and thats why some heavy duty buck shot or a slug is much much more lethal (at close range).

Oh, right, I'm sorry, I forgot that everyone in the Fallout universe uses shotguns all the time.

PS; Sua, it's my 2nd language, not my 3rd.

 

[Kahgan]

Gimpster, are you an experienced blacksmith? Have you ever tried making a three inch knife blade? Have you even tried shaping hot iron?

If you cannot answer yes to at least two of these questions, you should shut the fuck up because you don't know what you are talking about.

Whats with the attitude? Talking tough over the internet, that takes a real man.

No. But it's annoying to see you go on long post after long post, about something other people clearly have a better clue about than you, refusing to give in just because you want swords in Fallout 3

Also, knowing what blacksmithing is about, I take offense by someone talking about it like it's nothing, like it's something any man could do. If you want to buy a good sharp sword nowadays you must pay around 400 to 500 USD, for a really good one, even more ( http://www.jelldragon.com/sharp_viking_swords.htm )
In the viking age, a good sword was worth about the same as a medium sized farm, wich was really a huge deal. After a nuclear disaster, I doubt a sword would be cheaper than today, we're talking months of work here, all depending on raw-material availibility, the spring-steel in cars is great, but after you have forged it up to diferent tempratures, you have to harden it, wich is an art in itself, especially for a blade that is over 60cm.

All that, and it doesn't fit the setting, wich should be good enough a reason to keep it out.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Bigger is usually better when it comes to weapons yes..

Nope why do you think the rapier was developed because a big heavy sword became a liability as different weapon and armour technologies were developed.

Why would I spend time making a sword and not an axe, again, swords are more effective.

Swords aren't and weren't necessarily the most effective melee weapons it all depended on the sword, the wielder and the opponent.

A bullet is not a bullet there are many different calibers with different ballistics.

And a sword is not just a sword. There have been probably as many types of swords as bullet calibers. Someone with extensive sword training is still going to run into trouble against someone wearing armour their sword isn't designed to deal with and with a weapon with a longer reach.

Also don't double post and there's no need to quote someone's entire post when you reply.

edityourpost

 

[Morpoggel]

I've got a nice argument why swords wouldn't work in the Fallout setting: Power Armor!

Imagine ten guys wearing leather jackets and wielding swords trying to kick the shit out of a guy with Power Armor and a .223 Pistol... I'd put all my caps on the PA guy.