Who's best for America?

[CerberusGate]

How about we nuke or spread the Cloud to the entire Wasteland and begin again?

Honestly, each faction has their own flaws and benefits so none of them would be the best option for the Wasteland since different parts of the Wasteland would only be suited to certain factions ruling them.

Though I doubt that the Legion would last after Caesar dies and everyone misinterprets his teachings. The NCR is corrupt at the moment but maybe someday they'll get another Tandi in office.

I'd rather have an NCR ranger on my back than a Legionnaire. At least it would mean that I would not be working as an actual slave in Legion lands. I'd be working as a slave of the NCR's system.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Though I doubt that the Legion would last after Caesar dies and everyone misinterprets his teachings. The NCR is corrupt at the moment but maybe someday they'll get another Tandi in office.

Who might also force a dictatorship onto the NCR, leading to further collapse after their death.

 

[CerberusGate]

Who might also force a dictatorship onto the NCR, leading to further collapse after their death.

Tandi's dictatorship did bring about the golden days of the NCR where their expansionism was not excessively rapid (like Kimball's) and their infrastructure was stable so I'm not opposed to a benevolent dictatorship. It would have to depend on the individual though since another dictator could end up being like Edward Sallow and create a nation based around ancient civilizations (though it could work in a region without actual civilization).

EDIT: Probably should have written dictatorship like this - 'dictatorship'

 

[Dr Fallout]

Tandi's dictatorship did bring about the golden days of the NCR where their expansionism was not excessively rapid (like Kimball's) and their infrastructure was stable so I'm not opposed to a benevolent dictatorship. It would have to depend on the individual though since another dictator could end up being like Edward Sallow and create a nation based around ancient civilizations (though it could work in a region without actual civilization).

It also gave the big ranchers more power and influence, used subversive methods and oppressed ghouls and super mutants.

 

[CerberusGate]

It also gave the big ranchers more power and influence, used subversive methods and oppressed ghouls and super mutants.

True... I'm not sure about oppressing ghouls (memory does not extend that far) but Super Mutants were definitely oppressed by the NCR and the ranchers do have considerable influence (the comments of Walter Phebus comes to mind). Then again, this is why the NCR are not presented as ideal as well in New Vegas. I am slightly inclined to favor the NCR mostly because I think they can be salvaged from their current rut while I do not have much faith in the Legion's structure and methodology (especially with succession since I doubt Caesar could find a proper protege within the Legion to carry on his will and intentions properly without it being misinterpreted by the various tribes within the Legion).

Just to clarify, my actual position on this thread is that none of the current factions would be the best for post-War America due to differing needs and circumstances in each region. No single faction would be the best for America.

 

[Dr Fallout]

True... I'm not sure about oppressing ghouls (memory does not extend that far) but Super Mutants were definitely oppressed by the NCR and the ranchers do have considerable influence (the comments of Walter Phebus comes to mind). Then again, this is why the NCR are not presented as ideal as well in New Vegas. I am slightly inclined to favor the NCR mostly because I think they can be salvaged from their current rut while I do not have much faith in the Legion's structure and methodology (especially with succession since I doubt Caesar could find a proper protege within the Legion to carry on his will and intentions properly without it being misinterpreted by the various tribes within the Legion).

Just to clarify, my actual position on this thread is that none of the current factions would be the best for post-War America due to differing needs and circumstances in each region. No single faction would be the best for America.

They did, have you found any ghouls in the NCR that are influential or have good jobs?

 

[CerberusGate]

They did, have you found any ghouls in the NCR that are influential or have good jobs?

Some of the Veteran Rangers are ghouls if I recall correctly. I'm what I recall from a playthrough I finished a year ago so my memory is rather foggy and it is possible that the ghouls are simply placeholders rather than actual participants (though the alternative is possible).

 

[Dr Fallout]

Some of the Veteran Rangers are ghouls if I recall correctly. I'm using memory from a playthrough I finished a year ago so my memory is rather foggy and it is possible that the ghouls are simply placeholders rather than actual participants (though the alternative is possible).

Only out of need. Ghouls can go in irradiated areas without suffering much drawbacks.

 

[CerberusGate]

Only out of need. Ghouls can go in irradiated areas without suffering much drawbacks.

Being a Veteran Ranger has its own benefits nonetheless. Aside from that, I do concede that the NCR does have anti-mutant sentiments though to their credit, they did have that one Super Mutant (Gond) who was an actual NCR Ranger in Fallout 2.

Do you know if the Legion has similar sentiments? I'm poking around the Net but nothing substantial has come up.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Being a Veteran Ranger has its own benefits nonetheless. Aside from that, I do concede that the NCR does have anti-mutant sentiments though to their credit, they did have that one Super Mutant (Gond) who was an actual NCR Ranger in Fallout 2.

Do you know if the Legion has similar sentiments? I'm poking around the Net but nothing substantial has come up.

Except he was basically hidden away in their base.

I don't think so... they never mention their problem with the ghouls and super mutants.

 

[CerberusGate]

Except he was basically hidden away in their base.

They were still venerating the Vault Dweller for saving the Wasteland from the Super Mutant threat so I guess they had to hide Gond to avoid hurting their reputation as a fledgling group. The Rangers were just starting up after all.

I don't think so... they never mention their problem with the ghouls and super mutants.

Hmm... that's something interesting to look into. Maybe a future Obsidian Fallout spin-off that takes place in Legion territories could shed some coherent light on this and show how Legion territories actually operate first hand. Perhaps they don't even regard ghouls or super mutants as individuals to give a damn in their lands about or they use them as expendable labor?

Regardless, this was a decent discussion.

 

[Dr Fallout]

They were still venerating the Vault Dweller for saving the Wasteland from the Super Mutant threat so I guess they had to hide Gond to avoid hurting their reputation as a fledgling group. The Rangers were just starting up after all.

I think fighting slavers is a good way to get a great reputation anyway. Imagine a super mutant that fought to stop slavery... yeah all Super Mutants are cruel right? The propaganda.

Hmm... that's something interesting to look into. Maybe a future Obsidian Fallout spin-off that takes place in Legion territories could shed some coherent light on this and show how Legion territories actually operate first hand. Perhaps they don't even regard ghouls or super mutants as individuals to give a damn in their lands about or use them as expendable labor?

Regardless, this was a decent discussion.

Agreed, I personally imagine them using Super Mutants as expendable labor and special troops for shock attacks. Ghouls might be used as slaves to work in irradiated areas instead of other Humans. But I would love to find out.

Yeah it was.

 

[Izak]

Tandi's dictatorship

Don't take what Caesar said literally, Tandi was voted into office and had an extensive bureaucracy and constitution to keep her and future president's power in check. The only reason Caesar calls it a dictatorship is to prove a point, the NCR was and is a republic (as the name implies).

Agreed, I personally imagine them using Super Mutants as expendable labor and special troops for shock attacks. Ghouls might be used as slaves to work in irradiated areas instead of other Humans. But I would love to find out.

Considering how far East Caesar's Legion is, I doubt they have a large enough mutant/ghoul population to care about them. (Yes, I know there were significant amounts of mutants in Tactics, but still, I doubt there are many in Legion territory.)

 

[Dr Fallout]

Considering how far East Caesar's Legion is, I doubt they have a large enough mutant/ghoul population to care about them. (Yes, I know there were significant amounts of mutants in Tactics, but still, I doubt there are many in Legion territory.)

Yeah, who really knows? Now I really want to visit Legion settlements.

 

[Jogre]

Who do you think is the best for the future of America and why?

Personally I would think it would be the Enclave. As inbred as they are, they would be the best because they want to get rid of every mutant and restore America to its former glory.

WHY IS EVERYTHING YOU SAY IN GREEN? I KEEP THINKING YOU ARE POSTING LINKS BUT YOU'RE NOT!
Anyway, I'd probably say Ulysses is right in his judgement. He thinks that both Legion and NCR are flawed, and so the reason he's so pissed about the Divide is that he thought it would rise in to its own power, capable of stopping expansion of Legion and NCR alike.

I'd say that no faction is perfect, so honestly the best solution would be to let nations form out of the Wasteland through there own accord, so rather than having one united US, there could be various nations, each with there own strengths and weaknesses. Yeah the NCR is one of the best hopes for the Wasteland, but they shouldn't brutalise towns, and unfortunately with Kimball, they are making controversial decisions towards Mutants and Tribals, so honestly, in there current state they shouldn't expand, but at the same time Legion are a horde of Slavers and Warlords, and honestly giving up your freedoms and rights for some security provided by a bunch of fundamentalists seems like a big no-no.

 

[Izak]

I'd say that no faction is perfect, so honestly the best solution would be to let nations form out of the Wasteland through there own accord, so rather than having one united US, there could be various nations, each with there own strengths and weaknesses.

This is how I like to think about the future world of Fallout. It'd kinda be like a retro-futuristic Europe with nation states each operating independently and keeping each other in check.

they are making controversial decisions towards Mutants and Tribals

Kimball hasn't been making many bad decisions toward mutants and tribals actually. His predecessors were responsible for the Baja balls up and Bitterspring's massacre, and individual NCR citizens are mostly responsible for discrimination against Mutants (for example, Norton and the mercenaries were hired by NCR merchants to fuck with Jacobstown and Mean Sonofabitch was tortured by a couple of random assholes).

 

[SpecialHands]

I think, given how the new America is, smaller nation states would work best. The NCR running Cali and Nevada works best for them I think, the NCR would be too stretched to expand into running the entirety of the former USA

 

[Millim]

Off-topic, but this is one of the most intelligent discusions I've seen on the Internet.

 

[peadar87]

Source?

Yep, mainly the internment of Chinese Americans. As far as I recall it wasn't just Chinese citizens, but anyone of Chinese extraction, as their loyalty was considered suspect. There's also a sort of "yellow peril" tone about a lot of the background material.

As for sexism, again, background material makes things look like pre-war America very much subscribed to the notion that a woman's place was in the home baking and cleaning while the men were out working.

 

[Jogre]

Kimball hasn't been making many bad decisions toward mutants and tribals actually.

Cass mentions that the NCR "Round up tribals and domesticate them", and if you persuade the Great Khans to break there alliance with Caesar's Legion, and allow an NCR Victory, the NCR forcibly takes over Red Rock Canyon, and moves the Khans on to a reservation.

individual NCR citizens are mostly responsible for discrimination against Mutants (for example, Norton and the mercenaries were hired by NCR merchants to fuck with Jacobstown and Mean Sonofabitch was tortured by a couple of random assholes).

Senator Morals(Ironic Name) actively hires Mercenaries to piss off Mutants in order to justify him using military force against them, because there are many anti-mutant movements in the NCR and he wants there vote.

While the NCR has no active anti-mutant policies, if you can gain votes by intentionally provoking mutants and then killing them, there is something intrinsically flawed with your system.