Why does the NCR go after Enclave remnants, but not remnants of the Master's Army?

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

It’s either blow up a bunch of kids on an oil rig, or let literally everyone on the planet outside the oil rig die a slow, painful death. The choice is obvious, but it would be cool to show like a kindergarten class or something on the oil rig, to add a slight moral dilemma to the final mission. Do you warn the Enclave of the impending destruction of the oil rig, allowing them to save as many of their people as they can (and inadvertently allowing many of the guilty to go free, and possibly restart elsewhere)? Or do you silently destroy the rig, wiping out the Enclave but killing innocents in the process. Of course, in the base game you can’t help but set alarms off to blow the rig up. Maybe this is the kind of thing they would have had at the end of the game, had the developers had more time.

This choice could be expanded on in the ending slides.
1. Blow up the rig, save the children: “Thanks to you, the innocents aboard the oil rig were able to escape a fiery death. However, much of the Enclave leadership was able to escape with them. Though they have suffered a crippling blow, the Enclave remnants continue to terrorize the wasteland for years to come.
2. Blow up the rig, killing the children: “You destroyed the oil rig and everything on it, including innocent women and children. The Enclave is wiped out, save a few small outposts on the mainland, and they never recover. If you have any semblance of a conscience, the ghosts of the dead will haunt your dreams for the rest of your life.”

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Lot of war crime defending going on. Are we forgetting that the original point is that the Enclave definitely had children on their rig that are probably all dead now?, Like that's not justifiable by any stretch of the imagination.

Although I do grant that the Chosen One as a singular figure can't face down an entire army, take manual control of the Oil Rig and do everything legitimately. So really it's kinda a Utilitarian Question: did they really have any other options if they wanted to stop the mass genocide of the vast majority of the world's population?

It's still a warcrime, but a warcrime that would have saved probably close to a billion lives (I don't actually know how many people the world of Fallout has alive worldwide)

You don't even have to go so far as to invoke that they would exterminate the whole planet, only that they were going to exterminate the Chosen One's people. At that point, it's fair game, anything goes self defense. It sucks that civillians were caught in the crossfire, but that's war - see strategic bombings or atomic bombings. Arguably this is far more justifiable since here there was literally no alternative.

 

[laclongquan]

Logically there would have to be children at the Oil Rig. How else would the Enclave have survived?

We see no sign of children, or the family quarters, along with VIP like PoTUS in Oil Rig. In a game we have children running out all day everyday from casino town to mining town etc...

What does that say? Logically, it follow that there's no children on Oil Rig.

And logically, it follow that Enclave has another base as their main one. The Oil Rig is more like a company building.

Think about it: they want to rule the planet. Specifically, they want to run the West Coast at the very least. And personel in one single base with an outpost at Navarro is nowhere near enough to do so.

 

[Atomic Postman]

We see no sign of children, or the family quarters, along with VIP like PoTUS in Oil Rig. In a game we have children running out all day everyday from casino town to mining town etc...

What does that say? Logically, it follow that there's no children on Oil Rig.

Not a great argument. The games have always been visually abstracted. We don't see any children in Vault 13 nor do we see places like its power generator or its cafeteria, yet we logically assume they exist because of the context. Vault 13 isn't literally three small floors of people in the context of the world. In the context of the world, the Enclave are not plant people and they need to reproduce in order to have survived as long as they have. Navarro is considered a backwater FOB and is evidently not where they're raising future generations. Similarly, if we go by your argument there's no children at Navarro either - so where are they? How do the Enclave reproduce?

 

[Alphons]

I always thought that what we see in Fallout 2 is just a glimpse of an entire location. Reno is far bigger than 6 streets- but these 6 streets are the ones that are important to the Chosen One.

Same thing with Oil Rig. Chosen One is there to destroy Enclave and save his people, so the only places of interest on the Oil Rig are holding cells, labs, warehouse, reactor and President's office.
Arroyo tribals and Vault 13 dwellers aren't kept in Enclave's elementary school.

This choice could be expanded on in the ending slides.
1. Blow up the rig, save the children: “Thanks to you, the innocents aboard the oil rig were able to escape a fiery death. However, much of the Enclave leadership was able to escape with them. Though they have suffered a crippling blow, the Enclave remnants continue to terrorize the wasteland for years to come.
2. Blow up the rig, killing the children: “You destroyed the oil rig and everything on it, including innocent women and children. The Enclave is wiped out, save a few small outposts on the mainland, and they never recover. If you have any semblance of a conscience, the ghosts of the dead will haunt your dreams for the rest of your life.”

I was really happy to see similar choice in Resurrection. Do you quietly trigger the self destruct sequence and leave everyone to die (optionally break out prisoners quietly with high enough Science) or do you take a risk and trigger an evacuation to save as many of your enemies as you can?

 

[TheGM]

We see no sign of children, or the family quarters, along with VIP like PoTUS in Oil Rig. In a game we have children running out all day everyday from casino town to mining town etc...

What does that say? Logically, it follow that there's no children on Oil Rig.

Hit yourself in the face really really hard.

 

[Atomic Postman]

People may mald but the same thing happens in New Vegas. There's no way Hidden Valley doesn't have kiddo Brotherhood troopers running around in it. House players, Caesar footslaves and Moore simps are childkillers

 

[Hardboiled Android]

People may mald but the same thing happens in New Vegas. There's no way Hidden Valley doesn't have kiddo Brotherhood troopers running around in it. House players, Caesar footslaves and Moore simps are childkillers

If you destroy the fort, we know for a fact that you kill two children, whereas in a Legion playthough there is never any directly implied killing of children, only likely implied killing of children. Ergo, Legion is the most moral playthrough

 

[Atomic Postman]

If you destroy the fort, we know for a fact that you kill two children, whereas in a Legion playthough there is never any directly implied killing of children, only likely implied killing of children. Ergo, Legion is the most moral playthrough

I'm going to whip out a utilitarian calculator and annihilate you with facts and logic

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

If you destroy the fort, we know for a fact that you kill two children, whereas in a Legion playthough there is never any directly implied killing of children, only likely implied killing of children. Ergo, Legion is the most moral playthrough

Well we also know for a fact that the children at the Fort are invincible. Can’t say the same for the Brotherhood’s Schrodinger’s children.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Well we also know for a fact that the children at the Fort are invincible. Can’t say the same for the Brotherhood’s Schrodinger’s children.

the power of helegian dialectics

 

[TheGM]

Fallout characters confirmed to either bud like sponges are divide into to more characters.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

You know, the whole jump from "NCR has no idea about the Enclave" to "NCR hunts anyone even remotely connected to the Enclav e like they are nazis" is actually a question worth exploring. Why is the NCR so afraid of the Enclave?

Also, pretty sure a scientist in Navarro talks about "other facilities". The Enclave may as well have a few minor facilities on the mainland, with Navarro being the vertibird pit stop connecting them all and the Oil Rig.

I like the idea of the whole thing not being one-sided - say, unjust NCR or Enclave attack. Perhaps the whole war was some Prisioner-dillema kinda thing. Obviously, sane people would't trust the Enclave in a Prisioner's dillema. Maybe the NCR shot first. Maybe the Enclave shot first. Maybe the Brotherhood shot first. Maybe someone manipulated them all into conflict. Everyone has their own version.

And the war being more than just the sack. Say, Enclave deploying some nasty weapons (Deathclaws? Wannamingos? Robots? Bio-weapons?), and strategic and tactical action around North California. Brotherhood and NCR going after Enclave outposts, offensives, counter-offensives, etc.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Say, Enclave deploying some nasty weapons (Deathclaws? Wannamingos? Robots? Bio-weapons?)

The idea of the Enclave using chemical warfare sounds pretty cool. I’m sure they would make some sci fi gas that turns anyone not wearing protective gear into this:

 

[Atomic Postman]

You know, the whole jump from "NCR has no idea about the Enclave" to "NCR hunts anyone even remotely connected to the Enclav e like they are nazis" is actually a question worth exploring. Why is the NCR so afraid of the Enclave?

Also, pretty sure a scientist in Navarro talks about "other facilities". The Enclave may as well have a few minor facilities on the mainland, with Navarro being the vertibird pit stop connecting them all and the Oil Rig.

I like the idea of the whole thing not being one-sided - say, unjust NCR or Enclave attack. Perhaps the whole war was some Prisioner-dillema kinda thing. Obviously, sane people would't trust the Enclave in a Prisioner's dillema. Maybe the NCR shot first. Maybe the Enclave shot first. Maybe the Brotherhood shot first. Maybe someone manipulated them all into conflict. Everyone has their own version.

And the war being more than just the sack. Say, Enclave deploying some nasty weapons (Deathclaws? Wannamingos? Robots? Bio-weapons?), and strategic and tactical action around North California. Brotherhood and NCR going after Enclave outposts, offensives, counter-offensives, etc.

Again this is once again explained well by the Enclave having nuked San Francisco in the Van Buren lore

 

[laclongquan]

Yeah, that crime would make anyone sit up and pay notice.

Note that Enclave appear in New reno which is a border town between NCR and Vault City. Note that they send vertibird all over the northwestern corner of the coast.

They have capability to nuke anyone, and they prove it by nuking SF.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

The idea of the Enclave using chemical warfare sounds pretty cool. I’m sure they would make some sci fi gas that turns anyone not wearing protective gear into this:
View attachment 18812

Hell yeah, now that's some quality Enclaving alright! I like the way you think.
Imagine the Commander at Navarro telling his last remaining mad scientists to "go nuts" and unleash every single insane toxin, bio-warfare agent, cyborg, robot or monster they have or can cook up in time.

Suddenly, the Veteran Rangers' Gas Masks start making a lot of sense.

Again this is once again explained well by the Enclave having nuked San Francisco in the Van Buren lore

Yeah, true. It would definitively make people pay attention.
Don't like nuked SF myself. Too much Avellone-style "Wipe the slate clean" thinking for me. I like to world build, not world destroy. I also like San Francisco and the Shi, myself.

 

[Aurelius Of Phoenix]

The NCR go after the Enclave because they are friggin' fascists and commies like NCR need to friggin' bash fash, no such thing as a good fash even fashy babies need to be dealt with, like Gannon for example, if they caught up to him and his family you bet they would have smothered that little NAZI fuck in his crib before he could genocide the peaceful waste peoples.

 

[laclongquan]

Nuking SF is making terribly sense though. The Shi Empire is growing to be a new Empire stronger than even NCR
+ They make their own fuel, which is unique in West Coast.
+ They grow their own food (the biology dep research about plants) I think. Or at least, has workable research.
+ They fish in SF bay
+ They have a big staff of technical people in three group: Shi empire (submarine staff and super computer), Hubologists, and the bleeded off staff escape from two group
+ BOS base in SF is the biggest over all the coast.
+ In fact, you can see that SF has TWO supercomputer, BOS and Shi.

Shi Empire also is right next door to The Oil Rig. So if Enclave has the ability to nuke anyone, SF is prime target, top priority, ASAP, NUKE-IT-NOW.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

If the US Gov remnant found a Chinese Empire in San Fran...yea, I could see them nuking it. Especially since they're PRC descendants, not like they came from Oakland. Honestly they could had made a very dark storyline with that but didn't.