Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

Hey valcik, what would your ideal society be? I am just curious of what your political beliefs are because I do agree with you generally on a lot of politicslike buying things locally.
 
TheHouseAlwaysWins said:
Hey valcik, what would your ideal society be?
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I don't honestly know. Possibly some global technocratic union without any official religion, with preserved fragments of former cultural and national states chained together by high level of education, free access to informations, and free movement available for everyone.
 
What you don't understand is that no matter how many people die under communism and socialism, it's all forgiven because the nazis and capitalism also killed and kills a lot of people.

/edit: remember, it's not whataboutism or relativism when it serves to protect the stellar reputation of communism.
 
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Hassknecht said:
What you don't understand is that no matter how many people die under communism and socialism, it's all forgiven because the nazis and capitalism also killed and kills a lot of people.

/edit: remember, it's not whataboutism or relativism when it serves to protect the stellar reputation of communism.
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Who comes up with this 'excuse'? Have I ever said socialism is good because it's not fascism? Or that anyone can use that as defence?

All I am pointing out is that Socialism, Communism, Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are not the same - I know you didn't say that. No one here, as far as I can say, dennies the crimes which happend under socialistic systems like in the Soviet Union. The critics simply never get tired of throwing it all together, claiming that marx or engels are to blame for all the millions that died in the Soviet Union or China, which is reductionism on a ridiculous level. It's simply put, wrong.

Usually it's the critics that throw all the definitions together, without thinking about the differences and those that point them out, are the hypocrites that 'excuse' all the attrocities I guess. Yeah, that's I guess one way to 'defeat' an argument. But I am not so certain that it's a good one.

No one here, sees socialism as a great political system or form of government.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Who comes up with this 'excuse'?
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Arnust, read his antré in this thread.
edit: AHAHAH! I see you liked his post before asking, so you pretty much agreed with what he wrote. Nice backflip on your part.
 
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Not really an excuse if you realize every ideological system has needed violence to establish and further sustain itself, and that if you're gonna discredit one because of doing so at all, then you should look at the numbers and compare, and consider how truly essential it is to the ideology. Which is what I was going on at first. Implying that such things are inherent, or a neccesity to capitalist societies, seems to me like a way more explicit excuse and endorsement of that, if not genuinely, to try and spite the other argument, which is even worse.
 
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Well, it is not inherent to communist systems to fill mass graves with dissidents and undesirables, but it's like with guns not killing people: It just makes things a lot easier.
And as a faithful follower of MovieBob's Twitter account I know that in order to make a superior future omellette, you need to break a few million obsolete eggs.
 
Hassknecht said:
Well, it is not inherent to communist systems to fill mass graves with dissidents and undesirables, but it's like with guns not killing people: It just makes things a lot easier.
And as a faithful follower of MovieBob's Twitter account I know that in order to make a superior future omellette, you need to break a few million obsolete eggs.
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How? That's like saying anarchy is making it a lot easier to kill people or something. Communism and anarchism have a lot in common by the way, as both ideas are based on the concept that there is no government and any form of authority anymore. So I am not sure how communism in particular can make it a lot easier to kill dissidents. Again, socialism is NOT communism. .
 
Crni Vuk said:
How? That's like saying anarchy is making it a lot easier to kill people or something. Communism and anarchism have a lot in common by the way, as both ideas are based on the concept that there is no government and any form of authority anymore. So I am not sure how communism in particular can make it a lot easier to kill dissidents. Again, socialism is NOT communism. .
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Not what I meant.
Guns don't kill people, but they make it easier to kill.
Communism doesn't require to kill lots of people, but communism is easier to achieve if you do.
 
Hassknecht said:
Not what I meant.
Guns don't kill people, but they make it easier to kill.
Communism doesn't require to kill lots of people, but communism is easier to achieve if you do.
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That would hold some merrit, if there was a 'realistic' way of achieving it or some kind of guide in how to do it. What we have is a bunch of psychopaths which created dicatorships and used socialism as their choice.

Without any offense, but that's as if I would blame the pope for the crazyness of radicals blowing up abortin clinics, because the 'christian religion makes it easier to achieve it'. And I think we both know, the bible is full of a lot of questionable stuff and not everyone is just following the sermon of the mount. I mean, for fucks sake, the followers of Fra Dolcino (c. 1250 – 1307) used the bible to justify their attrocities.

According to the Roman Catholic Church and most historians of the period, Dolcino and his followers, in reaction to attacks by Catholic troops, became criminals (today they would be probably called guerrilla fighters), who would not hesitate, for their own survival, to plunder and devastate villages, killing any who opposed them, and burning their houses. He justified the actions committed by his followers in this period citing Saint Paul (Epistle to Titus 1:15): "To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted",[5] as reported by the Anonymous Synchronous[6] Dolcino maintained: "[...] that it was legitimate for him and his followers to hang, behead, [...] people who obey to the Roman church and burn down, destroy, [...] because they were acting to redeem them and thus without sin".

As an atheist I am not a friend of religion, not even in the slightest. But I wouldn't go so far to blame religion as a whole for radicalism. Because this is what we're actually talking about and which is present in all ideologies, regardless if we're talking about economic/neo liberalism, socialism, right wing politics or authoritarian leftism. Take things to the extreme, make them an ideology and you get people killed.

That doesn't mean communism as philosphy and concept can't be criticised! I am not saying you're not having a valid point. There have been people that got this idiocy in their head, that communism had to come by force, mostly by establishing socialist systems, but those idiots are autocrats and we have to fight them. Their are 'radicals' and we have to keep an eye on it. No doubt it.
 
Crni

I think we have already established that socialism/communism is a system that is inherently antithetical to human nature. I think this is what folks like Haas is saying.

Any form of government requires some measure of force sure, but the above systems simply require more force than other systems. This is because the state is inherently taking specific choices, like altruism, away from the individual, and commandeering it.

In capitalism, the state does not take altruism away from the individual. I can support any little league team I want instead of the state DEMANDING that I donate to EVERY little league team out there, which only causes EVERY teams to get LESS.

I could give one team $100 or the state takes my money and gives 100 teams, $1. It is quite stupid TBH.
 
Crni Vuk said:
That would hold some merrit, if there was a 'realistic' way of achieving it or some kind of guide in how to do it. What we have is a bunch of psychopaths which created dicatorships and used socialism as their choice.
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Communism and socialism is a form of society achieved by revolution at its core, and it is by nature a radical departure of the system that was in place before. As such there will be groupings of revolutionaries and reactionaries. Additionally, with communism being radically different, it requires a lot of reeducation of the people.
My point is that these things combined make the killing fields a very suitable option. It's a very common part of revolutions that the dissidents are disappeared. It's also a common part of revolutions that it will eat its children, so don't mind me when I laugh my arse off when they come for you, too.
 
Arnust said:
Not really an excuse if you realize every ideological system has needed violence to establish and further sustain itself, and that if you're gonna discredit one because of doing so at all, then you should look at the numbers and compare, and consider how truly essential it is to the ideology. Which is what I was going on at first. Implying that such things are inherent, or a neccesity to capitalist societies, seems to me like a way more explicit excuse and endorsement of that, if not genuinely, to try and spite the other argument, which is even worse.
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Why should I care? You are assuming I had advocated for capitalism whilst I did not mention it in a single post, so fueled by your false assumption you've stepped in and started with genocide appeasement and relativisation, derailing thread in lame attempt to make excuse for Engels' genocidal nationalistic drivel. Feel free to make a separate thread for crimes commited in capitalist societies, someone living in former colonialist powerhouse sure has a lot to write, which won't make Engels' genocidal drivels more acceptable for me.
 
Some originators of communism might have envisioned genocide, and basically all attempts at socialism have resulted in countless deaths, but the Nazis were worse and capitalism also doesn't prevent people from dieing, so checkmate atheists :smug:
 
Yep. Clear case of incredible butthurt, seems to me none of these kids going apeshit in this thread with hammer and sickle in their hands had any idea the grandfather of communism and socialistic ideals was in fact a genocidal nazi prick. Scalper made it pretty clear, so did Vuk by liking Scalper's post where he thought Austro-Hungarian empire still exist to this day with Slavs mentioned by Engels still populating it, and Arnust just keeps delivering.
 
Jesus christ what a retarded masturbationfest this thread is, and all threads like it. Why does it always turn into this? Why are people in this thread so fucking obsessed with their own genitals they cannot for a goddamn second stop touching them?
Like fucking chimpanzees.

While we're at it, let's endlessly celebrate the status quo, you guys. That's what we do best: Nothing, ever. Doing things is for old people, and nazis, and communists.

We're too woke for that shit. Being adult and responsible is to sit back and let THE AUTHORITIES do their thing, wether they be The Police or The Politicians that we have so diligently voted for. Unless they do too much and change the shit I'm used to. Status quo, the safe and sound, tested and tried, despite all the hookers in the world, the homeless, the starving, the incessant aggressive push from imperialist forces, the creep towards total capitalism and the inherent slavery that must come with it. What, capitalism destroys societies around the world? Man up you little pinko, that's the way of the world, that's what humans do! Worried about violence? Stop crying you homo, violence is normal, it's the way of the world. Unless it of course happens near me, then I want something done, but if it's more than a couple of metres away, the sirens and the wailing, it bothers me and I want it replaced with that soothing hum of the status quo. Grow up you guys, sit back, and be good, responsible, voting adults, and let the Other Adult Adult Authorities worry about the real world.
Unless they get too vocal about it
and disturb my slumber
 
Sorry to burst your stream of consciousness zegh, but communism actually happened to me once, much closer than couple of meters away. Rest assured that evil capitalism in democratic Czechoslovakia was much, much better for everyone including working class, than what started with forced deportations by NKVD and murders in gulags, followed decades later by military invasion and persecutions on all social levels for "better good and muh progress".

Welcome to the ranks of shitflinging monkeys tho, much appreciated despite lacking insight.
 
valcik said:
Sorry to burst your stream of consciousness zegh, but communism actually happened to me once, much close than couple of meters away. Rest assured that evil capitalism in democratic Czechoslovakia was much, much better for everyone including working class, than what started with forced deportations by NKVD and murders in gulags, followed decades later by military invasion and persecutions on all social levels for "better good and muh progress".

Welcome to the ranks of shitflinging monkeys tho, much appreciated despite lacking insight.
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I'm not talking about communism, but a departure from this system we're in now. You're saying Communism is bad, sure, that's what everyone says, I can assure you - it's not the first time I hear it.
I can also assure you, that I grew up in The Capitalistic West, so I can tell you it's not a dance on roses. There's a lot of inequality in this system that I've grown up in, a LOT of poverty, and victim-blaming at that. Exploitation is rampant, especially in communities that are unable to withstand the sheer pressure.
So, tell that to the folks back home, before they dream too highly of Western Freedom.

Oh, wait, you're allready living in this world? Then why are you not agreeing with me?

I'm not saying "Turn to communism", I'm saying - we go from one justification for opression, inequality and suffering to another justification, and we sit down, clap the dust off our hands, and nod to ourselves.

We're just about to witness another mass-scale invasion of a sovereign country in order for the capitalist machine of the world to enslave another population and steal their resources, and we're all "sigh, ain't that typical"

We cherry pick of our "free western democratic capitalistic market liberal" world, at our own leisure. We have freedom, yay (except the western capitalist countries that are super corrupt), we don't have starvation (except those that do have starvation on large scales), we have almost no real poverty (except for, you know, half of Africa, none of which are communist, and like two thirds of India, oh and lol Russia, Russia's western-democratic-capitalistic-marketliberal), we don't kill our own people (except when we do), and we don't invade others (except all the times that we do)

The system we live in right now is a fucking nightmare (for a lot of people other than you and me), it causes deaths in the thousands, and have racked up a death toll of - depending how you count - a hundred million.

For Crni to ask "why don't we live in a [communist utopia]?" might be a bit naive, sure, but it is far from a stupid question, and he is far from suggesting we turn back time and all move to Cold War Czechoslovakia, which I AM SURE was miles and miles and miles away from being ANY kind of utopia.
 
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