Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

There will ALWAYS be inequality, until we get replicators that is. I mean yea, there are universal human rights like not to be murdered or not be made into a slave. However, when it comes to shit like standard of living, how do you define that? Will an Xbox One or a PS4 with a big TV be enough? Does one require all food to be organic to satisfy their standard of living? Inequality is another one of those vague things akin to 'a living wage'.
Details have to be worked out for sure and yeah inequality will always exist. However, it never stoped us in the past to look for improvements. The US is a social democracy today, sort of. It didn't turned in to it over night.

Look, I am not saying it will happen tomorrow or because I say so. Sometimes the time is right for a certain change, or it isn't. If the majority of americans don't want the UBI, then it most probably won't happen.

All I am saying is, we have the resources and wealth to make it happen. It's an ideological or political question entirely.

Forgive me but doesn't seem like the truth here. If what you said were true, then we WOULD be living in some corporate, cyberpunk dystopia where mega corps control the government. Thing is, corporations do NOT control the government. Yes there are LOBBYIST but they "do not write the laws". All they can do is influence and HOPE that what they want is put into action. This still doesn't change the fact that people can be voted out and other people brought in.
What do you call this then?

It's taken for granted that lobbyists influence legislation. But perhaps less obvious is that they often write the actual bills — even word for word.

In an example a week and a half ago, the House passed a measure that would roll back a portion of the 2010 financial reforms known as Dodd-Frank. And reports from The New York Times and Mother Jones revealed that language in the final legislation was nearly identical to language suggested by lobbyists.

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsall...ists-literally-write-the-bill?t=1551715467569

Seriously, this is not the first time we discuss this and it feels like we really only end up discussing semantics, because the US is not an 18th century society, with a company like the East India Company rulling over the society with an iron fist. Believe what you want, but there are billions of dollars thrown at US politics, and often not in the interest of ordinary people, but for large corporations like the financial inudstry, pharma companies and weapon manufacturers. I would even say that with Trump in office, he is very close to an Oligarch in power.



Corruption and lobbyism has become a serious problem in politics these days. And those that have the money to perform it are for the most part wealthy families and large corporations.

I am not entirely against lobbyism, not all of them are evil, none of them are, they represent intersts. Any democracy needs groups that can bring their interests forward, be it from gun owners, to corporations or other groups. The issue here is, that it's out of balance and money is becoming more and more a decisive factor in who wins votes and political influence.

By that definition, most forms, if not all, forms of government fit this description. It is simply impractical and possibly foolish to literally have the government rely on DIRECT democracy. Since the beginning of time, most leaders have come from, or end up amassing, some sort of wealth as this is a logical step. Those who want power or to move up tend to try harder in these areas than others with lower expectations.
Just because we only know our current system, doesn't mean there are no ideas in how to improve it or that alternatives couldn't work - or din't exist. Like for example:

In governance, sortition (also known as selection by lot, allotment, or demarchy) is the selection of political officials as a random sample from a larger pool of candidates, a system intended to ensure that all competent and interested parties have an equal chance of holding public office.

And actually, it was used a couple of times in history even, like the Republic of Venice and you also use it in jurisdiction to select a jurry for example.

The brevia was used in the city states of Northern Italy during the 12th and 13th centuries and in Venice until the late 18th century.[13] Men, who were chosen randomly, swore an oath that they were not acting under bribes, and then they elected members of the council. Voter and candidate eligibility probably included property owners, councilors, guild members, and perhaps, at times, artisans. The Doge of Venice was determined through a complex process of nomination, voting and sortition.


I am not saying that we have to implement such a system now, that it would be feasible or that I know it would be an improvement. All I am saying is, alternatives exist and they might be better, we simply can't know. We also could use more direct democracy, rather easily even. We have the tools today, to make it possible. All I am arguing against, is this constant negativity of 'this is not possible cuz xyz!' or 'This will never happen cuz xyz'. Yes, of course it never is possible, till it happens. Again, we take certain achievements today as granted because we grew up with them. But you go one generation back and you see the same arguments, where the majority says, this will never happen!

UBI won't but 'wealth redistribution', WILL. When the government takes away my choice in regards to who I want to donate to, then yea, that is a gross over reach. When the government penalizes me for not buying insurance I cannot afford, THAT is over reach.

We do not disagree on UBI, we disagree on how quickly UBI can be ACHIEVED. I think we may still be decades from a UBI while you want to FORCE the issue through things like 'wealth redistribution'.
Where did I say I want to force it? I think this is a missunderstanding here. If it ever happens, it will happen because people will vote for it.

Besides, you're already forced to 'pay' for any public service like education, infrastructure, security, defence, research and many more. If we decide to pay the UBI trough taxes, no one would take something from YOU away, unless that is if you're over a certain income level, like if you're 'rich'. I never understand why people get so worked up about this. The US had once income taxes of over 90%. And this is not even the only way in how to financy it. Cut the defence budged for example, which is way to large anyway. Estate taxes could be increased as well, most of it is owned by very wealthy people as well. A transaction tax on finances and financial transactions would generate as well billions.

And if you do all of this, you would still have enough left to 'donate' it to what ever you want.
 
Hey look it is AOC, the fucking idiot who wants to ban air travel, told people to stop fating in a proposed law and thinks you can invest tax incentives.
 
Crni Vuk said:
we have the resources and wealth to make it happen.

Whether we have the resources or not depends on how we implement something like 'UBI', l'living wage', 'inequality', etc. Again, the replicators allowed unlimited everything for everyone. This is the ONLY reason Star Treks utopia worked.

Currently, we can't even determine whether we have the resources or not because the dewfinitions are so vague. However, considering the spoiled and over consuming average American, we probably won't.

Crni Vuk said:
there are billions of dollars thrown at US politics, and often not in the interest of ordinary people, but for large corporations like the financial inudstry, pharma companies and weapon manufacturers

I think this is more nature of the beast. You can't simply say this group is allowed to lobby and that group cannot. A definite flaw in an imperfect system. Still, while there are problems, it is hardly an assured path to mega corp dystopia.

Crni Vuk said:
Just because we only know our current system, doesn't mean there are no ideas in how to improve it or that alternatives couldn't work - or din't exist

Like you said, if enough people want it then maybe it could happen. I think getting term limits for senators is going to be more likely than electing random people for an office who may or may not be qualified.

Crni Vuk said:
Cut the defence budged for example, which is way to large anyway. Estate taxes could be increased as well, most of it is owned by very wealthy people as well. A transaction tax on finances and financial transactions would generate as well billions

Again, before we even decide we whether we have the resources, we need to define what is going to be given out and under what circumstances. TBH, same answer as above. The general spoiled American who doesn't really make good decisions is going to want too much and ruin any system.

Just an FYI

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years

https://www.fastcompany.com/9030839...nds-basic-income-trial-it-made-people-happier

Just some links for Finlands UBI experiment. Of course people are already complaining that results are negative or 'inconclusive', only because they didn't make it bigger. However, all preliminary reports suggest that UBI increased happiness but not productivity. That is because without proper incentives to work, people do not do it.
 
You're just a walking, talking meme, aren't you.
Hey if you aren't familiar with the green new deal, be proud of your ignorance. unless you find the idea of giving money to those unwilling to work right up your alley.
 
Hey if you aren't familiar with the green new deal, be proud of your ignorance. unless you find the idea of giving money to those unwilling to work right up your alley.

Sigh...

I'm curious, you seem to think politicians in your country are about to actually prohibit flatulence.
So, I'm curious:

A) You're this fucking stupid
OR
B) You're aware it's just a dumb exaggerated meme, and you're just mindlessly parroting shit you read on Twitter.

A or B?
 
Sigh...

I'm curious, you seem to think politicians in your country are about to actually prohibit flatulence.
So, I'm curious:

A) You're this fucking stupid
OR
B) You're aware it's just a dumb exaggerated meme, and you're just mindlessly parroting shit you read on Twitter.

A or B?
C. Being Hyperbolic and exaggerating things.

Twitter? Last time I checked I had a pair a testicles, so why the fuck would I be on twitter. I have observed that what I wrote got you posting normal people sized posts now though, that is kinda funny. Seems I have touched a raw nerve though, strummed it a little to hard perhaps. Tell you what, next time I decide to write something a little over the top, I'll make it in big colorful crayon letters just for you.
 
C. Being Hyperbolic and exaggerating things.

Twitter? Last time I checked I had a pair a testicles, so why the fuck would I be on twitter. I have observed that what I wrote got you posting normal people sized posts now though, that is kinda funny. Seems I have touched a raw nerve though, strummed it a little to hard perhaps. Tell you what, next time I decide to write something a little over the top, I'll make it in big colorful crayon letters just for you.

There was no C, there was only A or B: Either you believed the shit you spew to be true, or you don't. You don't. That was the answer.
Now run back to Youtube or Reddit or wherever you get your infantile political meme-stuff from, and hurry back to tell us what you found out, okay?
Will you do that for me? Goooood!
 
Currently, we can't even determine whether we have the resources or not because the dewfinitions are so vague. However, considering the spoiled and over consuming average American, we probably won't.
Not living of foot stamps and having a decent healt care where you have a few issues less, would be already a huge improvement for millions of americans I think, it doesn't have to be a luxurious home with flat screen TVs and 2 cars infront of the door. Without offense, but if we always fall back to "There is no perfect solution yet!" we will never get to make necessary changes and improve anything. Even if you can not define a perfect line for poverty, giving 1000$ to americans - tax free, with the option to earn something on top of it, see the video from Kurzgesagt, would be already a tremendious improvement for millions of households that are struggling right now.

I think that's worth it.

All I know is, that it's simply a pathetic display for one of the richest societies in the world to have such huge inequality. Doesn't speak for the system.

I think this is more nature of the beast. You can't simply say this group is allowed to lobby and that group cannot. A definite flaw in an imperfect system. Still, while there are problems, it is hardly an assured path to mega corp dystopia.
Not sure what you're trying to say here, we shouldn't bother because we can't stop it? I think you simply have to meet the right people, without any offense, because they ARE already living in this mega corp dystopia I am afraid.



Now I am not saying this is all the fault of corporations or lobbying. But there is a certain irony, that the movie Robocop played in Detroit.

Like you said, if enough people want it then maybe it could happen. I think getting term limits for senators is going to be more likely than electing random people for an office who may or may not be qualified.
We have to wait and see I guess. Sometimes things take a long time to change, sometimes they happen faster then we think.

Again, before we even decide we whether we have the resources, we need to define what is going to be given out and under what circumstances. TBH, same answer as above. The general spoiled American who doesn't really make good decisions is going to want too much and ruin any system.
The beauty of the UBI, is that you actually do not have to consider all that much. Everyone gets it. Or it wouldn't be Universal. All you have to decide is, how much they get. Again, there are millions of americans under the poverty line which could be pushed Immediately over the poverty line. That's the minimum we should aim for.

Just an FYI

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years

https://www.fastcompany.com/9030839...nds-basic-income-trial-it-made-people-happier

Just some links for Finlands UBI experiment. Of course people are already complaining that results are negative or 'inconclusive', only because they didn't make it bigger. However, all preliminary reports suggest that UBI increased happiness but not productivity. That is because without proper incentives to work, people do not do it.
The test was shit, because that's the truth. Either do it right, or don't. It was not an UBI. 500 euros are simply not enough. There have been other tests in Kenia, with very huge success, where they pushed people over the poverty line. If you google UBI and Kenya I am sure you can find it.

What the test in Finnland has shown though, while it didn't improve the job situation all that much, as you correctly said, it also didn't make it worse. So in other words, we can give people money without sanctions and strings attached to it and nothing would change, except that you make people happier. And I think, that's already a goal for it self, unless you have some kind of saddistic urge where people have to be also keept misserable and depressed before they are allowed any kind of support by the government. People in Finnland didn't take a job faster with the sanctions and preasure in place. So why keep it?
 
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Crni Vuk said:
Not living of foot stamps and having a decent healt care

There is no guarantee that people getting UBI won't also apply for food stamps, unless you trade one for the other. The good thing about food stamps is most of the time, people cannot waste it compared to giving someone $1000 dollars and they blow it on rims or a new TV, or some other dumbass shit.

Healthcare is also a mixed bag but that is easier to work on than UBI. We could study other systems and attempt to make a solution that would fit the U.S. but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Before we even TOUCH UHC, we have to fix the problems already present like transparent medical costs, and then figuring out how to get past issues like waste, wait times, doctor compensation, etc.

Again, it isn't that we cannot do studies and make plans, we can. I am just saying actually IMPLEMENTING such things like UBI and UHC, actually activating these things, will take at least a few decades.

Crni Vuk said:
Not sure what you're trying to say here, we shouldn't bother because we can't stop it?

I think we can agree that money shouldn't have a place in politics, but TBH, what is the alternative? To be able to campaign 24/7, one needs to be financially stable. One can get volunteers to work for free but everything else requires money. You have to reimburse people for ad time, flyers, gas, food, and all the other things that are a must to run a campaign. Unless you want the government to subsidize it but then you get into a whole different can of worms.

Crni Vuk said:
ARE already living in this mega corp dystopia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megacorporation

Since we like to play semantics with words.

Acting like sovereign nations? Nope. Monopolistic control? Nope. Ignore the law? Nope. Hold their own private military force or sovereign territory? Nope. Privatizing things like police, fire departments, etc? While there are some forms of private service, they are essentially limited to the places of employment. A private police force is often limited to the property they are under contract in. They cannot ignore state or federal laws, as mega corps often do in science fiction.

Oftentimes, megacorps are essentially corporate republics, which have no real world example.

I get it, you can 'what if', all day but enacting policies that effects millions of people on a 'what if', is going to require a very high standard of possible occurrence.

And AGAIN with the Flint situation. What are you trying to prove exactly?

Crni Vuk" said:
So why keep it

The whole point is to provide people with an incentive to work. If people already feel welfare benefits are enough, then obviously a UBI isn't necessary, at least until we get to the full automation bit.

In order to get to things like full automation and replicator like wonder tech, people need to WORK towards it. If nobody is working, it kind of defeats the purpose.
 
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Again, it isn't that we cannot do studies and make plans, we can. I am just saying actually IMPLEMENTING such things like UBI and UHC, actually activating these things, will take at least a few decades.
Sure, I agree. It won't happen tomorrow, it will take time. I am just merely point out the fact, that it's not a question of money, it's an ideological issue that we're facing here.

And AGAIN with the Flint situation. What are you trying to prove exactly?
We're not talking about semantics here, I think I offered you enough evidence which shows very clearly how money and wealth, is dividing the nation and undermining the democratic institutions. Legislations and bills are dictated by lobbysts, while ordinary people have less and less say in politics. Just because we're not some cyperbunk like dystopian feature where so called megacorperations are equal to nations - albeit you could say Samsung is pretty much doing that in South Korea, doesn't mean people in the US aren't suffering from the influence corporations have in politics these days. And yes, this has a lot do with the way how people live in Flint, or Chicago, or LA or you name it. And this issue is only going to become worse. Untill we actually do something against this growing inequality. We're loosing whole generations right now, due to poverty. The worse it becomes, the more expensive will it be for the society and at some point to deal with it. And suddenly, we will find our self in a dystopian future, once the society has become as divided like in Kenya or Nigera, where a wealthy minority has completely seperated them self from the rest of the society in gated communities, with their own schools, hospitals and infrastructure while the majority of the people live in poverty.

In order to get to things like full automation and replicator like wonder tech, people need to WORK towards it. If nobody is working, it kind of defeats the purpose.
Luckily, we're not completely in the dark when it comes to that question.

As I said, humans have it in their nature to be creators, inventors and productive. What we are not made for, is tedious and meaningless work, jobs that suck the soul out of you. And why should we? Sitting somewhere and flipping burgers for 7 $ per hour, is not part of our human nature. People want to do something that gives them a meaning, a purpose. So no, I do not believe that people would stop working if they received the UBI. They would simply do, what they want to do.

They've done surveys about it and pretty much everyone said, they would continue to work in their job with the UBI, they would simply work a bit less to spend more time with their family or hobbies, enjoying free time. And that, certainly isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
 
UBI will turn into mass-scale Pavlovian conditioning after a while, creating mindless and obedient flock blindly voting for any nonsense wrapped around UBI out of fear of losing free food. You read it here first.
 
Crni Vuk said:
question of money

It will ALSO be a question of money if you throw in all that other socialist stuff you talk about like UBI, free healthcare, free tuition, etc, etc. By itself, UBI is workable, but not combined with all that other stuff and only if we hit full automation.

Crni VUk said:
how money and wealth, is dividing the nation and undermining the democratic institutions.

But YOU brought up the issue of megacorps and then try to use a small example like Flint as a way to fear monger. If anything, Flint wasn't even an issue of corps, at least for water. As for the decline in the auto manufacturing industry, that was just an inevitable result of American car companies being less competitive in general, while the unions clamored for more and more employee benefits, till the companies finally said, 'fuck you, I'm out'. At some point, when your not making that much money due to external competition but yet your employees are used to or want more benefits, this causes problems.

Also, like I brought up earlier, I think completely removing money from politics is bit tough as money HAS to be spent on things that are needed to run a campaign. Or do you expect politicians to get their campaigns funded free of charge?

Crni Vuk said:
humans have it in their nature to be creators, inventors and productive

You mean a small number of them like Steve Jobs, or Henry Ford? You act like every plebe is going to have some kind of revolutionary idea when most of them couldn't be bothered to carry the burden of any kind of leadership or vision. Look at the .dot com boom of the late 90s and early 2000s. Thanks to a sudden infusion of investment, companies sprouted up left and right. We were supposed to experience some kind of internet golden age. But then, reality hit and we realized that many of these companies were not financially sound and not that good at making a profit. Whereas you think everyone is a potential Bill Gates, I think most people will end up being like Uwe Boll.

Crni Vuk said:
work a bit less to spend more time with their family or hobbies, enjoying free time. And that, certainly isn't a bad thing in my opinion

It isn't a bad thing sure, and if we can afford it. But Valcik also brings up a good point to mull over. Once people get used to getting free shit, it better stay or people will get mighty pissed off. Not to mention the government using UBI as a tool to keep the populace in check.
 
Before someone gets an aneurism, I am talking about 'utopian' communism and not socialism here. You know, actually what Marx talked about and not what individuals like Lenin or the Paris Commune made out of it.



What I am thinking about in particular, is this part of communism:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

>>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs![1][3][4]<<

It's an interesting idea, at the very least. One that was never as close to becoming a reality, than today.

I am thinking here for the most part about two technological evolutions that we can see on the horizon, namely digitalisation and automatition. In the 1920s certain economists claimed that we would have today a 20 hour work week, based on how producivity has increased just in their life time and how mass production and the modern industry made it possible to pretty much manufacture every day goods and products at a very cheap and affordable price. Going from this, some thought that in the distant future, with better technology and productivty, pretty much everyone would have everything they need for almost nothing and pretty much everyone will only work a few hours at most per day. It didn't make sense for them, to produce more, than you really needed.

Well, what's the reality today? Most people have 40-50 hour jobs and we're living in a society of abundance, yet the inequality has never been greater in human history as it is today. So what happend? It seems like the development of wages was at some point not in relation with productivty anymore, while productivity has gone up, wages havn't. The wages in totall have incresed, but in relation to productivity. The reason is relatively simple, most of the profit that is earned, is not shared among those that actually generate it. Our current generation is facing a serious issue of wealth distribution. I am not bitching about 'The Rich' here, as they are just a part of a larger global economic system that's simply rewarding the accumulation of wealth trough interests for example, effect of compound interest in particular as it has an accelerating impact. More products have to be sold in a shorter time frame for smaller costs, to generate the profit in order to cover the increasing interests. And this, effects everyone, even if you're not working for a large company, but you're still feeling the increase in living expenses for example.

However, I believe that we're right now on the verge of a 4th industrial revolution. The first industrial revolution, was kick started by the steam engine and the following development, a society that created an entirely new class, the labouring class. The second revolution, was about mass production and the petrochemical industries, which found its peak in the gruesome trenches of the first world war. The third revolution, was the electronical age, which gave birth to computers, semi-conductors and complex machinery. All those revolutions had, sometimes more sometimess less, severe impacts on our societies. But in the end, even trough all the troubles that might have been caused, it meant an improvement in the long run.

Now, the 4th revolution which is happening right now, has the same potential to really shake up our societies, the digitalisation and new wave of automatition. Not only does it seem to increase productivity again, but it might also mean that human labour will become needless in many areas, areas where automatition was deemed impossible and we can actually see this already happening today. There are whole computer progams developed by high tech companies like IBM, with the intention to replace lawyers, doctors and the like. But some programms are already in use today, programms that write articles, songs and more. Pretty much every work that can be replaced by some kind of algorithm, is very likey to be effected by this evolution. The difference this time however seems to be, that we're not experiencing the creation of new markets, not in the same way as it happend with the first industrial revoltion for example. The whole point of this revolution, is to replace human labour, when ever possible. Particularly in blue collour jobs, and those industries, where labour is very expensive and expendable. In some industries, labour makes up between 30 and 40% of the costs. The middle class, could be hit the hardest from this, as their wages are high enough to actually make their replacement a real goal.

So what does this mean for society? It might forces us to actually tackle the issue of wealth, how it's generated and how it's distributed within our societies. We might actually see the end of the meritocracy, as society might have to re-define the idea of labour, labour as a need to cover your expenses. Maybe there will be a need to revaluate cases where people do not work, work in the sense where they peform a job, that's yielding an income. There are many positions in our society that have no salary or wage. Beeing a mother, caring for your siblings, for sick family members, doing charity work, or simply following your hobbies. People will have to find new ways to define themself, that is not tied to a job.

I am not saying this has to lead to a communist society, but I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was really the closest it could come to. In terms of labour at least, governance is a whole different topic!

Communism doesn’t work for the same reason capitalism doesn’t work. Capitalism is absolute incentive, and no equity. This allows monopolies to exist. Communism leads to a people that is fully equal, but has less incentive, as they are not working for their own well being, but a slighter increase in the well being of the people.
 
It will ALSO be a question of money if you throw in all that other socialist stuff you talk about like UBI, free healthcare, free tuition, etc, etc. By itself, UBI is workable, but not combined with all that other stuff and only if we hit full automation.
The nice things about governments and money is, they do not work exactly like a company does. Which means you can think and invest a little differently. This was, after all, always a huge advantage of why governments are better in runing a society than let us say, a big company. Sometimes 'what it costs' isn't as important like simply iimplenting it, to keep the social stability. In other words, avoiding riots, viollence, crime etc, which also cost a society quite a lot, first and fore most lives. There is a tremendious amount of wealth generated right now and a government has a lot of tools at their disposal, to make use of that wealth. For example, "So, how much revenue could a modest FTT raise from the trading of stocks and stock derivatives? An FTT of 0.25 percent—a levy of $1 on every $400 of stock traded—would have raised $350 billion in 2008, assuming that both buyers and sellers are charged the FTT. Of course, 2008 was a very active year for stock trading; applying the same FTT to 2009 would have raised $233 billion." And this is just a rather simple calculation, so there is potential for more.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/found-money-the-case-for-financial-transaction-tax

The estate tax, trade tax, land taxes and income taxes should be increased you can also cut the defence budged - Many of those things should be already done even without the UBI.

If you take money and throw it at the infrastructure or education, then it's not just a zero-summ game. It's an investment in your population. High quality infrastructure, leads to better business and mobility where better and affordable education leads to better job oportunities. At least in the past, like the 50s, the US understood this concept. Take the Space Race from the 60s as example, which had no emmidate effect, but gave growth to tousands of technologies we use today and which are part of the wealth that's generated now. And why have they started it? Out of fear to be the last one in space. There was no economic consideration really.

It is also interesting that you barely, if ever, see a discision about the size of the defence budged and who's going to pay for it, like the last time it was increased. Or where most of the money actually went.



But YOU brought up the issue of megacorps and then try to use a small example like Flint as a way to fear monger. If anything, Flint wasn't even an issue of corps, at least for water.
No, I talked about form of CORPORATISM, not about a Cerpunk like society. Don't be so obtuse man. It's becoming a straw man argument.

Neocorporatists support the organization of economic interest groups and their participation as prime movers in the formulation, negotiation, adoption, and administration of economic policies backed by the full power of the government.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/found-money-the-case-for-financial-transaction-tax


Also, like I brought up earlier, I think completely removing money from politics is bit tough as money HAS to be spent on things that are needed to run a campaign. Or do you expect politicians to get their campaigns funded free of charge?
Actually that wouldn't even be such a bad idea honestly. In Germany, every political party, has a right for free air time in TV. It's of course a bit more complicated, because the loops to become a party are not so easy, you need a certain amount of supporters and so on.

Look man, I am not saying that I can solve the issue of money in politics right here and right now. The only thing that's certain is, it has to be solved somehow, even you acknowledge that fact - took me quite some time to reach you here though ...

You mean a small number of them like Steve Jobs, or Henry Ford? You act like every plebe is going to have some kind of revolutionary idea when most of them couldn't be bothered to carry the burden of any kind of leadership or vision. Look at the .dot com boom of the late 90s and early 2000s. Thanks to a sudden infusion of investment, companies sprouted up left and right. We were supposed to experience some kind of internet golden age. But then, reality hit and we realized that many of these companies were not financially sound and not that good at making a profit. Whereas you think everyone is a potential Bill Gates, I think most people will end up being like Uwe Boll.
That's not what I am saying. I just want people to have liberty and choices, without preasure. What they do with that freedom, is up to them.

Once people get used to getting free shit, it better stay or people will get mighty pissed off. Not to mention the government using UBI as a tool to keep the populace in check.
People are born with an inherent creativity, to be inventors and creators. If there is one thing that I learned over the years from working with countless children, than it's this and it's really true for all of them, they are explorers, inventors, creators. That's simply part of what makes us humans, we have this huge mass in our head that we call brain, that's simply forcing us to do it, quite literaly. Beeing without an occupation for a long period of time, is increasing the likeliness of depressions, there are studies on that subject. This alone tells me that if you give people the freedom of choice, they will find something to occupy them self with. What people want, is doing something meaningfull with their life. However, what people see as meaningfull, is different for each and every individual.

It's not like we don't have already a group of people which is in a situation like the UBI. And it's wealthy people. Most of them simply follow occuptations they see as meaningfull, since they do not have to worry about their living cost. I just would like to give the same kind of liberty, to everyone.
 
Crni Vuk said:
So, how much revenue could a modest FTT raise from the trading of stocks and stock derivatives? An FTT of 0.25 percent—a levy of $1 on every $400 of stock traded—would have raised $350 billion in 2008, assuming that both buyers and sellers are charged the FTT. Of course, 2008 was a very active year for stock trading; applying the same FTT to 2009 would have raised $233 billion


Your standard estimates for universal healthcare, via Bernie, is $1 Trillion. Low estimates for free college is roughly $40-$80 Billion. Estimates for UBI to raise every American out of poverty, around another $3 trillion.

We have already had the defense budget debate. I mean so far, without a MASSIVE, across the board tax hike, these programs are simply not realistic at this point in time or in the foreseeable future.

Crni Vuk said:
Space Race from the 60s

That actually had a lot to do with national defense and a wake up call that our abilities were lagging behind the soviets. The same rockets carrying people to space can carry weapons into earth orbit, spy satellites, etc.

Crni Vuk said:
creativity, happiness, liberty,etc,

TBH, sounds great but life doesn't tend to work like that. It might make a someone happy for them to do nothing but play games all day but I'm not going to pay for it.

Crni Vuk said:
wealthy people. Most of them simply follow occuptations they see as meaningfull, since they do not have to worry about their living cost

These folks still have worries and they definitely stress. They have companies to run, they have responsibilities. Not everyone can be a useless hippies sitting around the house all day smoking weed.
 
Your standard estimates for universal healthcare, via Bernie, is $1 Trillion. Low estimates for free college is roughly $40-$80 Billion. Estimates for UBI to raise every American out of poverty, around another $3 trillion.
Other nations have single payer health care and it's cheaper compared to the health care americans use now, the System in the US is the most expensive Health Care system of all developed nations.

But it's interesting to talk about money when you consider that Apple hit the 1$ Trillion mark. There are 100 of Trillions generated at Wall Street alone.

*Sigh* I can only repeat my self at this point. The money is there. It's a stupid argument, but it gets repeated over and over again like as it would be imposible to get it.

Again, you never see this point pop up when someone decides to throws another 300 Million at the military and defence budged, of which most of it, what surprice, ends up as profit for arms manufactures. Where are all the critics when a company like Lock Head Martin is making the next generation of Fighter Jets, like the Fiasco around the F-35?

We have already had the defense budget debate. I mean so far, without a MASSIVE, across the board tax hike, these programs are simply not realistic at this point in time or in the foreseeable future.
No arguing there, taxes have to be increased by a lot. But that's what the government should do, UBI or not.

That actually had a lot to do with national defense and a wake up call that our abilities were lagging behind the soviets. The same rockets carrying people to space can carry weapons into earth orbit, spy satellites, etc.
The reasons are not as important like the benefits it created for the society. What if it was space exploration for the sake of gaining knowledge, or because of the Soviets and the fear of getting attacked. There was not really much of an 'economic' reason to spend that much of money. What it gave us though, was a whole new technological era.

The point I am trying to make is, spending money on certain areas, is never a loss, like infrastructure, research, education. It's an investment that will give you a huge return down the line. It might take one generation however. But that's the beauty of governments, they don't have to limit themself to just one generation when they plan something.

Take austerity and keynesian view on economics for example. If the economy is booming, you increase the taxes and decrease defficit, if the economy is tanking, you throw out all the money into infrastructure and social programms. Right now, they lower taxes, increase spending (mostly military), privatise and all while the economy is growing. They cranked up Reaganomics to 11. Even though Trickle Down Economics has been disproven time and time again.

TBH, sounds great but life doesn't tend to work like that. It might make a someone happy for them to do nothing but play games all day but I'm not going to pay for it.
A small hint, you already do. Or well, to be more precise, society does and even more, because poverty is a real drain on society as a whole. You're loosing more than just money here. But this idea of the 'Wellfare-Queens' is an outdated and populist iew. More and more research here points us in a different direction and tells us, that we have to change our views.

These folks still have worries and they definitely stress. They have companies to run, they have responsibilities. Not everyone can be a useless hippies sitting around the house all day smoking weed.
So beacuse of the fear of one Hippie sitting at home all day smoking weed we let thousand if not millions of people sit in poverty. Gotcha.
 
So basically, the upper middle class people involved with automation and computers and shit still get to work 50 hours a week until they're 75, but they get to keep a lot less of their money so others can live in a utopia of boredom.
Yeah, that's gonna work out totally fine.
I know right, 1940s America is the shittiest place to settle down if you're opt to earn money.
 
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