Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

So, tell that to the folks back home, before they dream too highly of Western Freedom.

Oh, wait, you're allready living in this world? Then why are you not agreeing with me?
The fuck? Nobody here dream of "Western Freedom", take that as granted, you'd be surprised how low on the hypothetical worst-to-ideal society ladder the current western system sits in the eyes of local folks. Also no need to write walls of texts related to former colonial capitalist countries driven by slavery and exploitation as a harmful cruel system, since I made that point already couple of times.
 
Zegh

I don't think anyone here said that Capitalism is blameless here. Rather, it is simply the lesser of the two evils.

TBH, you cannot lump 'imperialism', to capitalism as EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT, in history has done it. Blaming imperialism on capitalism is a cheap cop out.

Same with hunger and inequality. Every country has hunger and inequality, it is simply part of the human condition. Well, science and tech can help us but again, it takes TIME.

As we have brought up in the past, the world has changed LEAPS AND BOUNDS, compared to our past and our future will be better as well. Seriously, to your average Persian or Roman imperial citizen, we are living in a goddamn utopia NOW.

Capitalism, TBH, is closer to anarchy than socialism or communism. In a society of PURE capitalism, it is darwanism at its finest. I screw you before you screw me.

This is why we ALREADY have the 'middle path', a system of governance that combines aspects of capitalism and socialism without going apeshit in either directions. No tea party, Ayn Rand love fest and no circle jerking the likes of Marx.
 
Meanwhile in China the communist party goes full orwellian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...om-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system
According to the National Public Credit Information Centre, Chinese courts banned would-be travellers from buying flights 17.5 million times by the end of 2018. Citizens placed on black lists for social credit offences were prevented from buying train tickets 5.5 million times. The report released last week said: “Once discredited, limited everywhere”.
 
TBH, you cannot lump 'imperialism', to capitalism as EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT, in history has done it. Blaming imperialism on capitalism is a cheap cop out.
That is because they operate on absolutes. They compare Capitalism, a mode of the economy to the pure social-hegemony of Communism. Capitalism is easy to blame for Imperialism, because they are unable to differentiate capitalism from imperialism's preferred method of economy, Mercantilism.
 
For Crni to ask "why don't we live in a [communist utopia]?" might be a bit naive, sure, but it is far from a stupid question, and he is far from suggesting we turn back time and all move to Cold War Czechoslovakia, which I AM SURE was miles and miles and miles away from being ANY kind of utopia.
original.gif


So someone does read my posts and gets where I am coming from. Now I can rest.

I would say part of the problem here is, that when I write something, this is what they probably think I am saying:

*You have to agree though, that is a catchy tune.

Here is what I really trying to say, that we're right now experiencing a very large and exponentially growing wealth inequality and there are reasons for it and I just think, it will cause severe issues for our society as a whole at some point. Issues that we will have to adress one way or another. Or we might see very viollent forms of distribution, which I do not want to see happening, but it is simply what happens with almost all societies, where the scale tips to much to one side.

ef608ec9a8981a1a73e78e92f83c9e11.gif

^This shit here, can not go indefinetly.


Zegh

I don't think anyone here said that Capitalism is blameless here. Rather, it is simply the lesser of the two evils.

(...)

This is why we ALREADY have the 'middle path', a system of governance that combines aspects of capitalism and socialism without going apeshit in either directions. No tea party, Ayn Rand love fest and no circle jerking the likes of Marx.
I am just asking, why do we have to live with 'lesser of two evils'?

It has always been one of my beliefs, that when you're doing something, you should always try to improve your situation. It certainly is what societies have been doing, historically of course. And I see no reason why this should stop any time soon. Maybe in 50 or 100 years, people look back at us and wonder how we could even live in this system and this kind of economy, just as how we ask sometimes, how people could live in monarchies 100 years ago, or what ever.

It's just frustrating to see people throwing words around, like as they would be the same. I am tired of saying, socialism sucks and we should NEVER EVER(!) have it in action. Like never. Like, don't vote for Hitler and kill the nazis kind of action. Yes, socialism is as bad like fascism.

But communism, simply put, is NOT socialism. It never was. It never will be. Is it so difficult to imagine that there has been confusion going on, when you consider how both sides, the west and east tried to beat each other for nearly 60 years? Not just by the use of their military, but also ideologically. There has been a lot of missinformation and most importantly propaganda thrown around, in both systems. Communism, is a hypoethical construct. It has a lot in common with anarchism - no form of government and authority present. And I still fail to see how that kind of idea, is making it 'easier' to kill people. Socialism, is NOT the route to communism. It's just another fucked up dictatorship. No one knows how communism could be achieved, or if it's even achieveable. Not even Marx and Engels knew it, for that matter.

I just believe, that more and more people might see a need for better and more fair ways of distributing wealth, improved versions of our well fare states with ideas and concepts that we might not even imagine yet, simply because no one knows what the society will be like in 50 or 60 years. Just look at all the the things that have changed in the past 60 years. There are people that still remember the 50s.

What I would like to see, is more liberty and choices for the individual, without the need to always struggle for monetary goals and that is why I am a very strong believer in the Universal Basic Income. But we had those discussions already. And I simply think, it is intelecutally disshonest to say, who's going to pay for it? When were globaly in a situation where there was never as much wealth accumulated on this planet, in all of human history. The issue? It's just in the hands of a few people and states. And as said earlier, there are reasons for that. And why shold we not try to improve the conditions here?

But I guess, I am just naive.
 
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And like I have said, we will EVENTUALLY get there, science and technology WILL get us there, to your utopia.

The problem I see with you Crni is that you REFUSE to WAIT. You REFUSE to let things take its natural course. Through oppressive state policies, you would rather FORCE the issue and try to make your dream happen NOW.

If government attempts to use FORCE to make drastic changes, then there WILL be blowback. We all knew Obamacare was gonna suck ass and not work like the dream pony the dems said it would be. We knew the pc culture and virtue signaling was going to invite massive push back. We knew the Latin American 'pink tide', wouldn't last. And we got Trump, Bolsonaro, Duque, and Macri. We have the AfD in Germany and Viktor Orban in Hungary. You had Farage and Brexit. Even Macron had to dial down the socialism in France as it was getting a bit too much. Greece, despite promises to the contrary, enacted far reaching austerity measures to bring back their economy from the brink of collapse.

Like I said before, we technically live like kings at this point of time, at least when compared to our predecessors. Science and tech has taken us far.

And Like you said, maybe the future people WILL ask, "How did we manage to live like we did?" Well, we asked the same thing of people in the early 20th century with their hateful bigotry and flawed ideas. We asked how it would be ok to lynch and intimidate blacks, oppress women, commit the genocide of 6 million Jews?

The thing is, just like the early 20th century folks, science and tech hadn't yet taken them to where we are NOW. Just like CURRENT science and tech cannot take us where YOU want us to be. We have to WAIT.

We have to encourage science and tech by avoiding policies that will only seek to drive stifle innovation and drive away companies that are KEY to these new technologies.
 
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Wall of text alert.

One of the big reasons is "human nature", human nature will always come back to haunt us: If we share the wealth (TO SOME DEGREE!!!! I'm not going full commie, and suggesting I take YOUR crayons and pencils etc, don't freak out, stay with me here - - - - )
If we share the wealth - the argument goes - human greed will always pervail. We can then turn our eyes to the real world we live in, as evidence of this: Mega corporations rule. Through lobbying, they *actually* rule, they influence how laws are written, what lawmakers are in place, and they dictate through this a lot the courses of various supposedly sovereign nations.

The problem with this argument though, is that it is not necesarily "human nature" on a normal individual basis. If it was, then the entire "control population" would behave this way. All humans would be trying to fuck each others over, litterally, physically, on a daily basis. Life would be impossible. Murder would be absolutely constant. Everything anybody owned would be up for grabs, and would have to be constantly defended, through coersion or violence (in the same way large scale/global scale resources are both sought after and defended violently)

A mega-corporation, however, is not a person reacting to his perfectly natural whims. General Electric, for example, has (checks) 313 000 employees, thats 1/3 of Estonia, acting as a vessel for capitalistic greed in action - or, "human natural behavior"
(It has to be said that not being greedy is also perfectly natural, and is also manifested globally as various charity organizations. While many of them are fake, many are indeed genuine. A lot of the medical profession and similar directions are also examples of this, but I digress - )

GE, Coca Cola Co., Google, Apple and Amazon, for example, have - in total - 1,2 million employees. These bodies are no longer examples of just "natural human behavior", but super-behemoth human-conglomerates with powers way beyond any normal walking breathing person.

Psychologically, we humans like to anthropomorphize anything. Rocks, clouds, pets. A corporation or a brand is anthropomorphized without even any effort. We give these beings faces, personalities, when in reality they are methodically harvesting up all the wealth. Why, even? Why do corporations do this? Who *owns* the values they generate? All those CEO old farts just fucking die anyway, none of them even spend that much. Is anybody ever going to spend it? Unlikely. These companies tend keep going untill they implode by losing all their value. It's almost pathological in nature, but much more than that it's a kind of algorithmic function, a kind of... "this is what happens if you combine this kind of mentality, this kind of species, with this kind of activity"

This can all be nipped in the bud tho. People are free to do their lil "mom and pop stores" that people love drooling about in their examples. Coca Cola Co. is not a "mom and pop store", people can even be rich, even filthy rich if they want to. I like the nice little example I saw in some video, of Dean Norris being rich. He can be as rich as he wants, because his money comes from people throwing it at him for him performing. That's all well and good. Demand and such. What Dean Norris is not doing, is sitting back, while sweat-shop workers do the acting for him. He doesn't employ 100 000 faceless people, for then to use this force of demography to get his way in a bigger scale around him.

Human nature is a lot. It is greed, but also selflessness, and it is solidarity, but also murder and torture. We have decided in our society that we will not tolerate murder and torture - under any circumstance! Killing through self defense is relabelled, even, you're not a murderer despite having killed someone. Murder is a part of human nature we do not tolerate, and therefore seek to nip in the bud. We start early. Most children known that murdering is wrong, because they're informed pretty much as soon as the topic comes up.

Exploiting - to the point of enslavement - should not be tolerated under any circumstance, but in this society, it is not only tolerated, but encouraged. Sweat-shops make shit tons of money, and their brands are still highly celebrated. Exploitation often is described as being savvy, and business tycoons are still seen as heroes - to both adults as well as children.
Mega corporations and their algorithmic behavior of murderous insanity may be a natural product of several factors put together, and as such, as natural as sociopathic and murderous tendencies in a single individual, and as with the single individual, it should be scrutinized *with great conviction* (as in, heads should roll)

Socialism or Communism or whatever, nobody here even keeps the correct definitions straight, proposed to bring the means of production (which now uses a bit of antequated language), to the worker, for then to distribute the proceeds between the workers.
When I think of that, I think "kindergarden", so... you know... it kind of fell on its ass, historically. There's anecdotal stories of many a commune that has functioned well, living in utopia, but they are fleeting.
The problem here is giving life to an unliving entity that will crawl over countless dead in order to keep growing.
If the worker steals from the shared pool, then he pays a fine or goes to prison.
If the worker steals - uses the surplus to become an employer, grows his company, for then to exploit labour, conglomerate with other companies, and begins to lobby in the laws of sovereign nations, and through this cause massive "3rd party" suffering well beyond his view, then we take his head.

I get what you're trying to say Crni, but I see absolutely no solution here, other than to just go all French Revolution and start putting heads in baskets. This is the most headachy position to have - to see that the system we live in is very, very flawed (just as stupidly flawed as Communism was, it's just that WE're not taking the brunt of it - other people are, far away people), but still unable to see a better alternative. Not seeing the alternative is NOT an excuse to embrace the current system though, that's what angers me, when I see that, it's a very cavalier attitude to suffering around the world...

If ANYthing... then I propose to repeat the French Revolution eeeeevery... 40 years.
That sounds too often, but it has to do with generational shifts, we can't let previous beheadings become "olden time activities" that people lose touch with. Everyone attending has to be able to connect this years beheading with either one they witnessed prior in life - or to the stories told by their parents directly. It has to be a personal experience, akin to public hangings in Iran, where people bring their cellphones, to eternalize the memory

DarkCorp, not to engage in a debate - Just wanted to say, I have the opposite future prediction :V The future will allow more and more deregulation, untill we're in a technologically ruled dystopia of entire slave-nations, and then to the point where genetic "purity" (through genetic manipulation) can allow for actual "testable" master races :V
 
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The problem I see with you Crni is that you REFUSE to WAIT. You REFUSE to let things take its natural course. Through oppressive state policies, you would rather FORCE the issue and try to make your dream happen NOW.

The Elites in Zarrist Russia, also waited.

So did the Elites in absolutist France.

In Germany however, Bismarck has gone for social programms. - And Bismarck, was not a communist.

I am just saying, history is usually not very kind to those that wait. The inequality, as we're seeing it right now, is a huge issue and drain to our societies. It accelerates poverty, it's increasing tensions, giving room for populism and people loose their faith in democratic institutions - and who can blame them for it? US is an oligarchy, not a Democracy.

We might see things taking a different turn, if the current events continue. We can, and we should aim for improvements now. Not in 5, not in 10 or 50 years. We have the tools to do it, the wealth, everything. It's not a question of money, resources or technology. It's a politcal issue.


I get what you're trying to say Crni, but I see absolutely no solution here, other than to just go all French Revolution and start putting heads in baskets. This is the most headachy position to have
Sure. That's certainly one way how growing inequality can end. A viollent distribution, history is full of such examples, hell even the collapse of socialist societies is more or less just that. It's simply what happens, when things get to much out of ballance. But I would prefer it not to happen that way. Besides, in our globalized world, this can lead to very serious issues.

Imagine one large destabilizing event like the economic crash in the 1920s or something, or maybe an energy crysis where our supplies on a global scale are threatened, I do not think that this would end well. It might lead to another world war and that's certainly the end of it all. We, as a species, have made a lot of mistakes since we started to build civilisations. Many cultures have spawned and dissapeared during this time. The thing is just, I belive we're at a point where we can not allow our selfs a lot of mistakes anymore, as the issues are becoming global and thus there is more at stake here. And we havn't even talked about the potential effects the climate crysis could have on our societies in the near future - so much for capitalism is always good. If entire 'empires' for the lack of better words, would start to become instable, like the US, Russia and China, which are nuclear powers, where could that lead us to? Well I think you can see where this might be ending. And that's not as unlikely as it might seem, someone already mentioned the Roman Empire, which is not around anymore, right? Societies, even very developed onces, can decline and collapse sometimes faster than we imagine.

And I think, we can and should avoid this. We have the tools and knowledge. All we have to do, is to use it. And I see no technological reason why we shouldn't. It's seriously all a question about which ideology or philsophy you follow. I just believe, the UBI for example, could really push us in to a new age. But we have to be willing to give it a try.
 
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Crni, Catastrophe and disaster is good for capitalistic exploitation. Strong, stable governments are the enemy, because they'll impose regulation - and - if functioning properly - a strong, stable government will have lawmakers and elected officials based on the benefit of the public, based on their extravantly well informed democratic participation. Corporations are not tied to a certain country, theyll simply place their assets wherever it makes most sense, the headquarters will be in some EU pretentious place like Luxembourg, but the manufacturing will be in Asia, and the finance department in the Carribean somewhere, like I said, actual nation-states are kind of a hindrance to corporations, so the weaker and more unstable they are, the better the conditions to grow unchecked.

So yes, apart from the obvious reasons to avoid catastrophic collapse of society - this is a very good one to add! And another reason why I can only really see sharp and abrupt handling of corporations, top down, as even remotely viable. Excecute the culprits, and liquidate their assets, AND make a public show of it, you know, for deterrence.
 
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Zegh

The problem with your old man analogy is that you refuse to see certain things in order to prove your own point.

First, do I really need to bring up Robespierre? Also, with the exception of certain revolutions of sovereignty, many revolutions only bring in more of the same, just with a different face. The 'Pink Tide', of S. America was supposed to usher in the utopia pony, but nothing of the sort has happened. This is because the primary cancer has yet to be cut out, CORRUPTION and INEFFICIENCY. A lot of backward ass religious policies still pose as major hurdles to social improvement, abortion being one as it is still illegal in many Latin American countries.

Rich people do not spend money?

Corporations spend money ALL THE TIME. I have brought this up again and again. R & D, Legal, Human Resources, IT, logistics, infrastructure, the list goes on and on. If anything, a majority of fund is spent on research and development. Rich folks invest in stocks and bonds, which in turn go into funding new research and new companies and giving new thinkers capital to make their dreams a reality.

A majority of a corporations wealth is not liquid capital but tied to assets the corporation needs to thrive.

Crni

I believe the opposite, as history has shown otherwise. One would have thought that monarchies would reign supreme as they so often had, NOPE. One would have thought fascism was the future considering how widespread it was in the early 20th century, NOPE. One would think the era of robber barons would lead to a corporate dystopia but guess what, we have yet to see Blade Runner, Shinra, mega corp behavior. This wouldn't work as the same mentality that stops socialism from happening, will stop corporations from amassing too much power. When one side fucks up, we vote them out and bring in the other. Our good old yankee assholishness hates socialism and mega corps alike.

Oligarchy? We have had this discussion before. Bernies grassroots campaign allowed him to run and he did ok. Problem was his platform was strictly limited to advocating for a nanny state. When it came to things like how to deal with China and Russia,, not so much, with only VAGUE contributions.

No shady politics shut him down as most of those who made such accusations ended up retracting them due to their falseness. If anything, Clintons clout wiped every other serious contender off the map. Bernie failed because his platform sucked and only really appealed to the youngster demographics. He lost everyone else. No government conspiracy. No Mr. Burns meetings in the dark with copious amounts of hand rubbing.

Now just a point, I am not saying do NOTHING. As I brought up, there are ALTERNATIVES to fix problems without giving the state inordinate amounts of power. Like my critique on how to fix the shitty situation with our medical and insurance situation.
 
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Crni

I believe the opposite, as history has shown otherwise. One would have thought that monarchies would reign supreme as they so often had, NOPE. One would have thought fascism was the future considering how widespread it was in the early 20th century, NOPE. One would think the era of robber barons would lead to a corporate dystopia but guess what, we have yet to see Blade Runner, Shinra, mega corp behavior. This wouldn't work as the same mentality that stops socialism from happening, will stop corporations from amassing too much power. When one side fucks up, we vote them out and bring in the other. Our good old yankee assholishness hates socialism and mega corps alike.
I think you're missunderstanding me.

All I am saying is, every society can fall appart. The US might face a second civil war at some point, or what ever. No clue. I am just very certain, that inequality, can not grow indefinetly. How the US will solve that issue? Trough democratic reforms where the people vote new and uncorrupted individuals in office where they improve the situation? Or maybe trough some viollent changes where the whole system is disrupted making room for something entirely new? Like Zegh said, choping heads off. I wouldn't be surprised, if the US might become actually a military regime or something like that.

I would certainly hope that it's the former, trough peacefull reforms and more democratisation and there is a strong possibility for it.

Oligarchy? We have had this discussion before. Bernies grassroots campaign allowed him to run and he did ok. Problem was his platform was strictly limited to advocating for a nanny state. When it came to things like how to deal with China and Russia,, not so much, with only VAGUE contributions.
Who's talking about Bernie here? I was giving a Link to a study. I think you're simply put closing your eyes to something that has become a reality here. Forget Bernie for a moment. Even if you're a die hard libertarian, you can not be very fond about the fact how money is buying you a lot of influence in politics these days, where you can pretty much write your own laws.

No shady politics shut him down as most of those who made such accusations ended up retracting them due to their falseness. If anything, Clintons clout wiped every other serious contender off the map. Bernie failed because his platform sucked and only really appealed to the youngster demographics. He lost everyone else. No government conspiracy. No Mr. Burns meetings in the dark with copious amounts of hand rubbing.
That's not how oligarchies work, neither what I said.

Oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία (oligarkhía); from ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning 'few', and ἄρχω (arkho), meaning 'to rule or to command')[1][2][3] is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, education or corporate, religious, political, or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who typically pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition for the application of this term.

It's almost as if someone wrotte this definition while thinking about todays US politics. Fits quite well in my opinion.

Now just a point, I am not saying do NOTHING. As I brought up, there are ALTERNATIVES to fix problems without giving the state inordinate amounts of power. Like my critique on how to fix the shitty situation with our medical and insurance situation.
How does the state gain huge amounts of power, by giving everyone the UBI and thus the liberty to make his own choices?

Let me rephrase that. You're actually correct, the part of the state that is represented by its people, gets a lot of power. But why does he need that? For one very simple reason, to change the imbalance between corporations and individuals. Corporations, as Zegh perfectly explained, concentrate a hell of a lot of wealth and power in the hands of a relatively small group of people which is very bad for the masses of individuals that make up the nation. Corporations however, are not intersted in the well being of nations, why should they? They want to make profit. That's their job. That's why they exist. Which is a good thing, or they would make a very bad job and cease to exist. We do need corporations. However, as an individual you will find your self in a very bad position and one side effect of this are, stagnating wages while the cost of living is growing. And this issue is only going to increase trough automatition and digitalisation.

The UBI would simply be a chance to have some meannigfull distribution, it would give the individual more liberty and controll over their life, where they are not forced to make decisions that are bad for them only out of monetary preasure. And I do not believe that people would stop working. We as humans have it in our genes to be inventors, creators, craftsmen. What we do not have in our genes though, is to sit in some office from 8 am to 18 pm for wages that make it almost impossible to survive in this society.

This is what I want, to give people a chane to do their own thing. And we do have the resources and the tools to do just that.
 
Yep. Clear case of incredible butthurt, seems to me none of these kids going apeshit in this thread with hammer and sickle in their hands had any idea the grandfather of communism and socialistic ideals was in fact a genocidal nazi prick. Scalper made it pretty clear, so did Vuk by liking Scalper's post where he thought Austro-Hungarian empire still exist to this day with Slavs mentioned by Engels still populating it, and Arnust just keeps delivering.

Basically this. Likely because they never read the books the sick fucks wrote. You can tell who actually understands history, and who parrots what they are told.
 
I hear a lot of 'criticism' in here, but I would honestly like to see how you guys think automatition and digitalisation will change our societies and what solutions there will be.

I mean it is easy to say, yeah the UBI sucks because yxz, or what ever other idea someone brings up. But certain changes are very likely to happen, if the Oxford study is to be believed (Future of Employment) where more than 50% of the current jobs could be one way or another effected by automatition in the future.
We examine how susceptible jobs are to computerisation. To assess this, we begin by implementing a novel methodology to estimate the probability of computerisation for 702 detailed occupations, using a Gaussian process classifier. Based on these estimates, we examine expected impacts of future computerisation on US labour market outcomes, with the primary objective of analysing the number of jobs at risk and the relationship between an occupation’s probability of computerisation, wages and educational attainment. According to our estimates, about 47 percent of total USemployment is at risk. We further provide evidence that wages and educational attainment exhibit a strong negative relationship with an occupation’s probability of computerisation.

I welcome this change, as it will force our society into a form of transition. I think something positive will come out of this. There is also a chance however, that it won end very well for a large number of people, just as how the first industralisation has lead to a very dire situation for factory workers and labour.

My opinion, we will get to the UBI eventually, one way or another. The question is not if, but when. I guess someone like Zegh would say, after they choped their heads of (revolution!), I hope we will do it before that happens, to keep our societies stabile.

I think this is a pretty good explanation of the concept:


Basically this. Likely because they never read the books the sick fucks wrote. You can tell who actually understands history, and who parrots what they are told.
This is the second time you say this, would you care to reveal your sources of information?
 
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Crni Vuk said:
I am just very certain, that inequality, can not grow indefinetly. How the US will solve that issue? Trough democratic reforms where the people vote new and uncorrupted individuals in office where they improve the situation?

There will ALWAYS be inequality, until we get replicators that is. I mean yea, there are universal human rights like not to be murdered or not be made into a slave. However, when it comes to shit like standard of living, how do you define that? Will an Xbox One or a PS4 with a big TV be enough? Does one require all food to be organic to satisfy their standard of living? Inequality is another one of those vague things akin to 'a living wage'.

Crni Vuk said:
money is buying you a lot of influence in politics these days, where you can pretty much write your own laws.

Forgive me but doesn't seem like the truth here. If what you said were true, then we WOULD be living in some corporate, cyberpunk dystopia where mega corps control the government. Thing is, corporations do NOT control the government. Yes there are LOBBYIST but they "do not write the laws". All they can do is influence and HOPE that what they want is put into action. This still doesn't change the fact that people can be voted out and other people brought in.

Crni Vuk said:
Oligarchy

By that definition, most forms, if not all, forms of government fit this description. It is simply impractical and possibly foolish to literally have the government rely on DIRECT democracy. Since the beginning of time, most leaders have come from, or end up amassing, some sort of wealth as this is a logical step. Those who want power or to move up tend to try harder in these areas than others with lower expectations.

Crni Vuk said:
How does the state gain huge amounts of power, by giving everyone the UBI and thus the liberty to make his own choices?

UBI won't but 'wealth redistribution', WILL. When the government takes away my choice in regards to who I want to donate to, then yea, that is a gross over reach. When the government penalizes me for not buying insurance I cannot afford, THAT is over reach.

We do not disagree on UBI, we disagree on how quickly UBI can be ACHIEVED. I think we may still be decades from a UBI while you want to FORCE the issue through things like 'wealth redistribution'.
 
Shove your capitalism and your socialism up your ass. Red/blue. R/D.

Just give me term limits, balance your budget and get the fuck out of my life you annoying cultists.
 
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