Why Hitman (2016) failed miserably...

Buxbaum666 said:
I'd say the "ripening banana" allegory works for the now-popular early access model but not episodic games. Theoretically, the gameplay is finished with episodic releases, further episodes just get you new content and the "full" game is equal to the sum of its parts.
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The gameplay might be finished but the player skill isn't, since games usually get harder and harder or more complex the closer you reach the end.
If I have to play a bit now and end it then wait months to play the next bit and it is harder and/or more complex, it will take a toll on my skill and I will lose time to get as good as I was already at the end of the first part, then repeat until all episodes are released.
Imagine playing a full game and play 5 hours of it then stop for months, then come back and play 5 more hours and then stop for a few more months and so on. It would make the game boring and depending on the type of game we would have to relearn how to play again and again.

I never buy things in parts, games I think I will like I wait until all DLCs and "parts" to be released as a "Complete Edition", because Episodic stuff or playing now and then only get the full product later really sucks for me.
 
I was specifically addressing the "ripening banana" thing.

Risewild said:
I never buy things in parts, games I think I will like I wait until all DLCs and "parts" to be released as a "Complete Edition", because Episodic stuff or playing now and then only get the full product later really sucks for me.
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It just seems like a non-issue to me. You can play the full release if you don't like to play it in episodes.
 
Buxbaum666 said:
It just seems like a non-issue to me. You can play the full release if you don't like to play it in episodes.
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I can, but most players seem to not do that and that is why that game failed.
I wait for years after a game was released so I can buy the complete edition and get it cheap, but most consumers have this "need to get it as soon as it comes out for whatever reason" and so those will be bored after a couple episodes are released and lose interest in the final product.

It's bad business practice in an industry like gaming, where gamers are purposely hyped and "conditioned" to buy things on release by this same industry.
 
Walpknut said:
Episodic releases actively affect the design of the game itself.
So "just buy them all at the end" is a pretty stupid argument for what is being discussed.
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How exactly did it affect Hitman? You get targets on a single map you can freely explore to find disguises and figure out your favourite way to take them out. It's always been like this.
 
From a person view for some reasson it was never promoted on the xbox so I didn't even know about it. No one else was saying anything about it either. I guess it was because it episodic and its was like a full game review or anything. I would probably not brought an eposdic game anyway becasue I would like to play it all in one. THought saying that walking dead didn't really suffer the same fate.
 
No clue what you're people complaining about. That Episodic Format worked wonders for Halif Life I mean ... wait, guys? guuuys! Don't turn your back on me!

No seriously episodic formats make no sense with games as an interactive medium. And really I don't see many cases where it could actually work with games. It makes the game a worse product at the very least 90% of the time.
 
Crni Vuk said:
No clue what you're people complaining about. That Episodic Format worked wonders for Halif Life I mean ... wait, guys? guuuys! Don't turn your back on me!

No seriously episodic formats make no sense with games as an interactive medium. And really I don't see many cases where it could actually work with games. It makes the game a worse product at the very least 90% of the time.
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Kinda a bit of a stawman though, no?

Half Life 1 was basically episodic, and it was like that from the start (expansion packs and whatnot).

Hitman has usually been single fullsize fullpriced games.
 
How was HL1 'episodic'? - outside of the fact that the game it self was seperated in sections that you well accomplished while playing the game. The game for it self more or less had an ending even though the fate of Gordan remained 'open ended', but it was still a form of conclussion within the story of Gordan as a whole, his role in Black Mesa was simply done, he beat the big bad guy who attacked them, while revealing a much bigger entity behind it pulling the strings. But I always had the feeling this was like some kind of omage to certain Sci-Fi tropes or things you saw in the X-Files, particularly with the G-man. The game it self didn't just stop right in the middle at some point though, leaving you with a black screen. Like as if the game completely stoped when the marines captured Gordan leaving you with nothing to continue, telling the player 'well next year you can continue!' THAT would have been pretty stupid.

I might be wrong here, but from what I remember HL1 was meant to be one full experience and the idea for a Sequel came actually later after the release of HL1 and the huge success. That's what I get from the developer quotes, if I remember them correctly. Only after HL2s release has the team around Gabe got the idea in their head to 'release' HL3 as some kind of episode-thingy and their explanation for this (as it saw some backlash) 'it would mean faster releases of content'. Yeah ... great how that one worked out.
THe expansions for HL1 didn't continue the story though, it just expanded on it, it was aditional content, the story of Barney and Shepard happend simultaneously to Gordans, which also lead to nice easter eggs in the game as you saw sometimes scenes happening with Gordan.

Anyway, the point is that for a medium like gaming, considering how games are made and all the process behind it the episodic format usually makes very little sense. Games simply as medium, do not lend it self very well to this kind of structuring. Hell, I would even say that episodic formats with cliffhangers and the like, are even a problem with TV shows unless you actually get a chance to know what is happening a week later. It sometimes really furstrates me with a couple of TV shows that a whole season ends with a major cliffhanger since I simply sometimes forget after 6 months that the series was even there or I have to rewarch previous episodes to actually refresh my memory - in particularly with the Walking Dead ... man ... talking about episodic format becoming a boring thing. I'm not against it, I just think with all the great TV shows that you see these days it's really a bit overdone.

The point is, games are a very interactive medium and with Half Life we see the huge issue of episodic development where the third Episode of HL2 has still not been released to this day ...
 
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Crni Vuk said:
How was HL1 'episodic'? - outside of the fact that the game it self was seperated in sections that you well accomplished while playing the game but the game for it self more or less had an ending even though the fate of Gordan remained 'open ended'. I might be wrong here, but from what I remember HL1 was meant to be one kind of a game and the idea for a Sequel came actually later after the release of HL1 and the huge success. That's what I get from the developer quotes, if I remember them correctly. Only after HL2s release has the team around Gabe got the idea in their head to 'release' HL3 as some kind of episode-thingy and their explanation for this (as it saw some backlash) 'it would mean faster releases of content'. Yeah ... great how that one worked out.
THe expansions for HL1 didn't continue the story though, it just expanded on it, it was aditional content, the story of Barney and Shepard happend simultaneously to Gordans, which also lead to nice easter eggs in the game as you saw sometimes scenes happening with Gordan.

Anyway, the point is that for a medium like gaming, considering how games are made and all the process behind it the episodic format usually makes very little sense. Games simply as medium, do not lend it self very well to this kind of structuring. Hell, I would even say that episodic formats with cliffhangers and the like, are even a problem with TV shows unless you actually get a chance to know what is happening a week later. It sometimes really furstrates me with a couple of TV shows that a whole season ends with a major cliffhanger since I simply sometimes forget after 6 months that the series was even there or I have to rewarch previous episodes to actually refresh my memory - in particularly with the Walking Dead ... man ... talking about episodic format becoming a boring thing. I'm not against it, I just think with all the great TV shows that you see these days it's really a bit overdone.

The point is, games are a very interactive medium and with Half Life we see the huge issue of episodic development where the third Episode of HL2 has still not been released to this day ...
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When was Hitman ever episodic?~
 
It wasn't in the past, so much for sure. But I thought the new game was? That's kinda the feeling I got from reading here.
 
Yes ... and then I asked you how HL1 was 'kinda episodic' ...

I think we're talking past each other right now, which can very easily happen as I can get quite often in useless ramblings that no one reads.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Yes ... and then I asked you how HL1 was 'kinda episodic' ...

I think we're talking past each other right now, which can very easily happen as I can get quite often in useless ramblings that no one reads.
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I just mean that compared to the rarity of Hitman games with large gaps, HL1 and its expansions were made kinda quickly, and kinda the same for HL2 too.
 
ThatZenoGuy said:
Kinda a bit of a stawman though, no?

Half Life 1 was basically episodic, and it was like that from the start (expansion packs and whatnot).

Hitman has usually been single fullsize fullpriced games.
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HL1 was in no way episodic. The main game and the expansions stand on their own and are fully contained stories. Half Life 2 was somewhat episodic in that they ended on cliffhangers and divided the story in actual episodes.
Hitman hasn't been episodic in that sense so far, although some could argue that the strict level progression of the Hitman games is basically episodic to begin with. That's not true, though, because while one could claim that Hitman's story is superficial at best, it is there. There are recurring characters, it tells a coherent story, and there's a certain progression in terms of equipment, especially in Blood Money.
Now Hitman does work in an episodic fashion, but it kinda does remove the overarching story that the previous games had. I'd wait for the final, full version, because I hate waiting for new episodes for the reasons I explained in an earlier post.
 
Buxbaum666 said:
How exactly did it affect Hitman? You get targets on a single map you can freely explore to find disguises and figure out your favourite way to take them out. It's always been like this.
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I guess when you reduce everything to it's bare basics everything can sound the same.

Who has ever heard of a progression flow? That don't exist, no sir. Are games more than a sum of basic description of activities? Nah.
 
ThatZenoGuy said:
Its almost as if a subpar game offered to people in the form of 'gibe more shekels please' every so often would fail.

Huh.
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You realize like....no one on the planet didn't love the game who actually played it, right? It's generally stated by Hitman fans to be better than Blood Money.
 
Episodic games like Hitman don't benefit the one purchasing the game or the developer. I don't get how someone would be okay with purchasing one bit of the game then waiting for the next part to be put out, I happen to like playing my games whole and hate the idea of having to wait however long until it's fully released. It's a shitty way to sell your game.
 
Walpknut said:
I guess when you reduce everything to it's bare basics everything can sound the same.
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Just a reminder that earlier in this thread you reduced Hitman to "an action game".

I've played all of the previous Hitman games. Thinking back, do I remember the story framework or "progression flow"? No, I remember sneaking around, stealing people's clothes after syringing them to sleep and using that disguise to poison the target's beer bottle or have a chandelier crash on them.
 
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