Why I love Skyrim

They also made this whole Thalmor making Talos worship illegal thing, but never explored whether Tiber Septim should be treated as a God, or ever made a compelling case on either side, or even what the use in worshipping that one specific God is. It's a whole unexplored plot line.

People want to worship him and can't or they're killed. Does more need to be said? This isn't a argument of spirituality but totalitarianism.

I do apologize to @Black Angel for misunderstanding his point, though.
 
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People want to worship him and can't or they're killed. Does more need to be said? This isn't a argument of spirituality but totalitarianism.

I do apologize to @Black Angel for misunderstanding his point, though.
Being the Dragonborn basically proves Talos' divinity. These fantasy settings can't have literal gods walking around and expect their religions to work the same way. What I hate about these fantasy settings is its stagnation in technology and mindset. They stay as medieval fantasy settings and magic is never used in a manner outside that mindset.
 
Being the Dragonborn basically proves Talos' divinity. These fantasy settings can't have literal gods walking around and expect their religions to work the same way. What I hate about these fantasy settings is its stagnation in technology and mindset. They stay as medieval fantasy settings and magic is never used in a manner outside that mindset.

To be fair, most settings are post-apocalyptic to some degree and can never be rebuilt because humanity is fundamentally surrounded by predators.

Why the NCR will be destroyed and we can dance in the fallout forever!

:)
 
Being the Dragonborn basically proves Talos' divinity. These fantasy settings can't have literal gods walking around and expect their religions to work the same way. What I hate about these fantasy settings is its stagnation in technology and mindset. They stay as medieval fantasy settings and magic is never used in a manner outside that mindset.
That's what I liked about Morrowind. It had a rather pragmatic view on religions. The Tribunal were basically living demi-gods and worshipped as such, and Dagoth Ur planned to build a robot god out of the heart of a literal god (not to mention that Dagoth Ur was also basically a god himself).
But then again, Morrowind took quite a few unorthodox steps when it came to world design... Which is why Morrowind still rules while Skyrim is kinda bland.
In Skyrim you kill dragons. At the end of Morrowind (including Tribunal) you have possibly murdered two to three gods and seen the corpse of another, and you have beaten the heart of what is basically the demiurge of TES with ancient weaponry. Because Morrowind rules.
 
That's bad acting. Not bad writing. Then again, I'm curious what your issues are with the actual story and lore.
I would say it's both. You want to see good writing?


People want to worship him and can't or they're killed. Does more need to be said? This isn't a argument of spirituality but totalitarianism.
Uh, yes, a bit more context and more explanation would have been very nice! As you say, the way how the game shows it, just makes the Thalmor into assholes. But that's really not enough in my opinion, exploring that more would have been very welcome, maybe actually showing what it means for the Thalmor that some people in a different corner of the world worsip a human as god. What was their motivation? Just humilation of the Empire? Or maybe something that had something to do with their own pantheon of god(s)? Morrowind was really good when it came to that part, like adding lore and backstory.

Infact I would have actually liked a game that was about the war between the Thalmor, the Empire and what roles Ulfrick and the others played here, that's what Skyrim should have been about! The few snippets of information about the war with the Thalmor the game throws at you was 10 times more engaging than this bland 'Alduin-the-super-Dragon!' plot.
 
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Eh, I was actually least impressed with Planescape: Torment's ending out of the entirety of the game. The game had a lot of wonderfully crazy bits like giving Morte to be buffed by the Prostitute, the Brothel of Intellectual Delights, the discovery your ghostly girlfriend was actually just a sucker to your manipulation, and the entirety of your conversations with Ravel Puzzleweaver in all of her guises.

Part of my issue with the ending is I have a personal bugbear in any video game ending which results in a "heroic sacrifice." Planescape: Torment is the least problematic example of this trope because it's set up the entirety of the game you're trying to die but it's still something which I found less emotional than I might have because of my dislike of the trope.

Then again, I've often wondered how much a good finale depends on having built up a relationship with existing characters. You're comparing, notably, the emotional climax of the game with all of the pre-established companions in the Bioware-esque model of your party to a fairly random set of characters you meet inside Sovangarde.

You'd probably do better to compare it to Skyrim's actual "emotional" moments.







Yeah, Planescape: Torment is better but I think the game's writing is better than many give it credit for.
 
Being the Dragonborn basically proves Talos' divinity. These fantasy settings can't have literal gods walking around and expect their religions to work the same way. What I hate about these fantasy settings is its stagnation in technology and mindset. They stay as medieval fantasy settings and magic is never used in a manner outside that mindset.

Fable tried to do that and it was disastrous to the setting. The stagnant setting in TES can at least be explained by the over-reliance on magic, and the fact that the premier steam punk race - Dwemer - got zapped into 'get-fucked-in-the-ass' land. Like, there's no reason to worry about technological advancements in medicine when you can drink a potion or cast a spell to literally bind your wounds.
 
Skyrim had actuall emotional moments? I kinda feel dirty now that you're comparing some of Skyrim with Planescape :/. I should have never brought that up ...

Yeah, Planescape: Torment is better but I think the game's writing is better than many give it credit for.
How? In which way is Skyrims writing touching you to speak so? How is it not like literally ALL the other fanatasy-hero-schlock out there that so many AAA games throw out these days? What seperates Skyrims writing from all the others?
 
Skyrim had actuall emotional moments? I kinda feel dirty now that you're comparing some of Skyrim with Planescape :/. I should have never brought that up ...

Yeah, it had a lot of them. :scratch:

How? In which way is Skyrims writing touching you to speak so? How is it not like literally ALL the other fanatasy-hero-schlock out there that so many AAA games throw out these days? What seperates Skyrims writing from all the others?

I really felt the characters, their motivations, and their troubles. I think a lot of the characters had very coherent arcs and the story enriched their personalities while their personalities weren't wholly reliant on stories. I really was interested in the character of Ulfric Stormcloak and his character from his past to his death with all the contradictions thereof.

Is there any specifics you want me to comment on?

Seriously, I could talk about my favorite characters and arcs from the game all day. Make a top ten list of favorite skyrim NPCs and stories and places if you want.
 
To think that Skyrim's writing and voice-acting is anywhere near that of Planescape: Torment is.... well, you're already not very credible to listen to when talking about what makes a game 'good', here you completely sealed your fate.

Seriously, with competent writers and competent voice-actors/actresses who NOT only voice-acted the characters but also act LIKE the character written to the letter, Planescape: Torment is just way miles above Skyrim. In Skyrim, not only the writing's inconsistent, but the voice-actor/actresses barely act like the characters they voice-acted, as if they were only reading/pronouncing the lines without putting the proper intonation to it, on top of having voice-actors/actresses rehashed across the gameworld. Serious, fuck Bethesda, they are the laziest developer ever. Even New Vegas got awfully corrupted by this laziness.

Part of my issue with the ending is I have a personal bugbear in any video game ending which results in a "heroic sacrifice." Planescape: Torment is the least problematic example of this trope because it's set up the entirety of the game you're trying to die but it's still something which I found less emotional than I might have because of my dislike of the trope
Planescape: Torment ended with 'heroic sacrifice'. You dislike the trope, but Fallout 3 get a pass because..... you liked Fallout 3, DESPITE it was also about 'heroic sacrifice'.

This is the second time you're doing this stupid shit. You love Skyrim for inaccurately represent settlements with mere two-streets populated by a handful NPCs, and then you turn around proclaiming your dislikes of the Witcher 3 because it 'felt' 'too big'. And now you proclaim how Planescape: Torment isn't as good for you because it used the 'heroic sacrifice' trope, but you liked Fallout 3 NO MATTER WHAT, despite the game had 'heroic sacrifice' written ALL OVER IT, whereas PS:T had 'heroic sacrifice' at the very end.

Fuck you, and fuck me for even bothering replying to you.

Then again, I've often wondered how much a good finale depends on having built up a relationship with existing characters. You're comparing, notably, the emotional climax of the game with all of the pre-established companions in the Bioware-esque model of your party to a fairly random set of characters you meet inside Sovangarde.
I think here is your problem (and also a 'problem' I had and just about the 'problem' with every human being ever): You proudly proclaim that you're a casual who would turn down the game's difficulty to the easiest setting possible. Because of that, when a game is less casual-friendly, you wouldn't want to even bother. What I mean with the problem I and every human being had, is that when you dislike something you wouldn't want to even bother, and because of that you missed all the good that there's.
Here's the extension of your problem, though, as I've said: you praised the game you REALLY love in an aspect they were extremely bad, and then also raised points for the game where non exist. You praised Skyrim for inaccurately represent settlements with mere two streets populated with a handful of NPCs, and you also read way, WAY TOO MUCH into everything, to the point of calling the game had 'emotional moments'. Here's an example of that:
I really felt the characters, their motivations, and their troubles. I think a lot of the characters had very coherent arcs and the story enriched their personalities while their personalities weren't wholly reliant on stories. I really was interested in the character of Ulfric Stormcloak and his character from his past to his death with all the contradictions thereof.
You're reading WAY too much into everything, basically playing pretending there is something where it's non exist. You're LARPing everything. All of it.

You felt stuff despite it's extremely lacking, and then turn around proclaiming your dislikes of stuff where it's JUST RIGHT with no lacking whatsoever.

But here's another problem that I've just realized: from what you've said, I guess you've played PS:T. But, since the game was actually less casual-friendly (e.g require much, MUCH reading AND putting your thoughts into everything), on top of you had to repeat the game to see ALL of the content (no, you can't complete the game in one sitting to get ALL the content in one playthrough), either:
  • You didn't enjoy the game AT ALL, therefore you didn't even bother and you didn't pay attention
  • You had somewhat low perception and/or low reading/listening comprehension, that you didn't properly pay attention
You're saying that Skyrim had moments that's comparable to that of Planescape: Torment. That...... that's too much, mate.

Yeah, Planescape: Torment is better but I think the game's writing is better than many give it credit for.
I think you're giving Skyrim way too much credit.
 
To think that Skyrim's writing and voice-acting is anywhere near that of Planescape: Torment is.... well, you're already not very credible to listen to when talking about what makes a game 'good', here you completely sealed your fate.

I don't think Planescape: Torment and Skyrim are any way comparable. Despite not being on my top-ten list, I think PS:T is probably the best written game of all time. Not the least because, despite being one of like six tabletop Planescape players who existed prior to the game, it really is amazingly original.

Seriously, with competent writers and competent voice-actors/actresses who NOT only voice-acted the characters but also act LIKE the character written to the letter, Planescape: Torment is just way miles above Skyrim. In Skyrim, not only the writing's inconsistent, but the voice-actor/actresses barely act like the characters they voice-acted, as if they were only reading/pronouncing the lines without putting the proper intonation to it, on top of having voice-actors/actresses rehashed across the gameworld. Serious, fuck Bethesda, they are the laziest developer ever. Even New Vegas got awfully corrupted by this laziness.

Oh no, I think only a few of the Skyrim characters were acted well. They had a bunch of repeating actresses and actors to populate the vast map. That's got to be wearing on even the best soul. Annah, Falls from Grace, Morte, and I'm totally blanking on the Githzerai (I could look it up but this is how much I remember even years later) were all extremely well-written despite not really being "acted."

Planescape: Torment ended with 'heroic sacrifice'. You dislike the trope, but Fallout 3 get a pass because..... you liked Fallout 3, DESPITE it was also about 'heroic sacrifice'.

Actually, I stated I thought Fallout 3's base game had one of the worst endings of all time. Second only to Mass Effect 3. I only like Fallout 3 with Broken Steel. There's no pass, actually, as those two are preeminent examples of what I consider to be the grossest mishandling of it. I feel similarly about the "Kill everyone" ending of Human Revolutions.

This is the second time you're doing this stupid shit. You love Skyrim for inaccurately represent settlements with mere two-streets populated by a handful NPCs, and then you turn around proclaiming your dislikes of the Witcher 3 because it 'felt' 'too big'. And now you proclaim how Planescape: Torment isn't as good for you because it used the 'heroic sacrifice' trope, but you liked Fallout 3 NO MATTER WHAT, despite the game had 'heroic sacrifice' written ALL OVER IT, whereas PS:T had 'heroic sacrifice' at the very end.

Fuck you, and fuck me for even bothering replying to you.

I hope this is clarifying as I think we've both misunderstood each other at times. But yes, in Skyrim, I think the holds may not be accurate but are nice little villages with a lot of personality that conveys the size and feel of the holds despite being inaccurate and I prefer them to Novigrad. I also felt the Witcher had serious travel time issues for the sake of being big. I have no problem with Planescape Torment, just problems with its ENDING. Fallout 3 is great--but the Broken Steel DLC is mandatory.

Otherwise, it has a far far worse ending than PS:T which isn't AWFUL by any means, just not to my taste. It's actually quite moving and one of the better examples of it even if I don't like it in general.

I think here is your problem (and also a 'problem' I had and just bout the 'problem' with every human being ever): You proudly proclaim that you're a casual who would turn down the game's difficulty to the easiest setting possible. Because of that, when a game is less casual-friendly, you wouldn't want to even bother. What I mean with the problem I and every human being had, is that when you dislike something you wouldn't want to even bother, and because of that you missed all the good that there's.

So noted.

You're reading WAY too much into everything, basically playing pretending there is something where it's non exist. You're LARPing everything. All of it.

You felt stuff despite it's extremely lacking, and then turn around proclaiming your dislikes of stuff where it's JUST RIGHT with no lacking whatsoever.

Eh, I think it's often there even when people say it isn't. Admittedly, I no longer do the Social Satire of games because I realized too few games really said anything.

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2012/03/social-satire-of-deus-ex-human.html

You're saying that Skyrim had moments that's comparable to that of Planescape: Torment. That...... that's too much, mate. I think you're giving Skyrim way too much credit.

Oh, I love PS:T and think it's much better written than Skyrim but I enjoyed Skyrim much much more.

I may write about Skyrim's Civil War and the underlying issues of politics and faith, though.
 
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Yeah, Planescape: Torment is better but I think the game's writing is better than many give it credit for.
Those emotional moments in Skyrim came across as cliched and typical of such stories. Even the deconstruction bits ring hollow due to how short and shallow it came across. PS:T, at least, was far more emotional and had greater impact due to how much more detailed those moments were explored.

Deionarra's longing, Morte's character, Ravel and her guises. Those moments are parts I will always remember due to how strong the writing was and how detailed those moments were. Even now, I still feel a twinge of sadness (along with a desire to strangle the Practical Incarnation to death) everytime I go through Deionarra's sensory stone due to the torment of Deionarra being fully explored and how monstrously cruel Practical was.

The ending of PS:T was, to me, satisfying due to how much the game had explored the ramifications of the Nameless One's immortality and that ending it would finally bring peace and penance to him. Plus, the whole being able to answer the overarcing question in the best ending route trumps any other boss resolution in any other game I've encountered so far.

Compare to Skyrim where those 'emotional' moments seem cliched and typical due to how shallow, short and optional those moments actually are. I'm sure you found those moments to be good but to me, those moments ring hollow when compared to other better RPGs like PS:T.
 
Yeah, it had a lot of them. :scratch:



I really felt the characters, their motivations, and their troubles. I think a lot of the characters had very coherent arcs and the story enriched their personalities while their personalities weren't wholly reliant on stories. I really was interested in the character of Ulfric Stormcloak and his character from his past to his death with all the contradictions thereof.

Is there any specifics you want me to comment on?

Seriously, I could talk about my favorite characters and arcs from the game all day. Make a top ten list of favorite skyrim NPCs and stories and places if you want.
You don't have to be specific, at least not for me, I played the game.

And I think most of the NPCs in the game are shallow, boring and replacable. Even the few things you can get with Ulfric and the handfull of other NPCs that actually have more than just 2 or 3 lines of interest, sadly do not show enough expression to really give me some kind of 'emotional' reaction, most of what they say is simply to formulaic, to much of a cliche.

The things that made games like Plansecape interesting for me, was that you could have ACTUALL conversations in the game, about the game-world, the NPCs, their beliefs and discussing a lot of topics that have zero to do with you or the quests, making the characters feel real and believable.

Mr.Btongue talks about this in great detail here, with the question of, "what do they eat?"


This is something that Mass Effect 1 did a lot better for example, it's simply the way how the game allows you to explore, like the lore, the world and the narrative trough the conversations that you can have. Skyrim has almost none of that, and the few times where you get it, are very small, to small. Ulfric and Balgruuf have potential, yes, but that's all they have, just potential. You simply never have a real conversation with them.

"As wide like an ocean as shallow like a puddle", this describes Skyrim, the NPCs and locations best, in my opinion.

I even would argue that Morrowind did a much better job, with its boring wiki-like dialog format when it comes to NPCs, but that doesn't seem to resonate very well with the current lead at Bethesda - and a lot of casuals, for the lack of better words. Admittedly, the text and its presentation was quite overwhelming in Morrowind, up the point where it becomes yeah, downright boring and the player would not have 'real' dialoges with the characters but enter in monologues. However, it still gave me more of a feeling that I was 'exploring' a narrative here compared to Skyrim, which was the other extreme if you want so, where you don't get enough exposure and chances to ACTUALLY engange in no clue, 'useless' chatter, back story, lore etc. Something that I also enjoyed a lot in the Witcher 1, which gave you a lot of oportunities to engage in lore, informations and NPCs that had not necessarily a purpose or advancing the story/narrative, their role was purely to make the world 'lively'. No character in Skyrim ever gave me the same feeling like Zoltan, Shani or Triss, just to name a few as there are plenty more.

Another issue I had with the NPCs of Skyrim, was consistency, like how we discussed a few pages back, you simply can't fail with any of the NPCs. The world is so sureal when it comes to this, like as it was made of plastic, and the same is true for ALL of the NPCs. And this goes way beyond the immortal NPCs that you can't kill, Skyrim isn't the first game that did this and it's definetly not the worst mechanic in my opinion. What is far worse if you ask me, is that you simply can't anger NPCs, to the point where they downright refuse to do ANY kind of business with you. And no matter how well a character is written or how great he his, if you don't have at least the 'choice' to seriously piss him off, they simply feel like unreal dolls, at least to me.

A big difference to Plansecape for example, or even Baldurs Gate, where characters would leave your party and even attack you, if you provoked them to much, making them feel much more believable and like an actuall part of the world.
 
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For me, I absolutely loved the background and story of Skyrim because it worked on so many layers.

You have the fundamental conflict between the Imperials and Stormcloaks which neither group had the moral high ground over as well as the fact neither group was really fighting their real enemy in the Thalmor. The Thalmor may also appear to be purely evil (and perhaps are) but they're not necessarily wrong, either, as the destruction of Mundus to create a new reality might be better for everyone.

I liked how you had a nice conflict between issues like cosmopolitanism versus local sovereignty as the central guiding issues of the battle without demonizing one side or the other. Too often games tend to go with the plucky Rebels being right with the fact national sovereignty tends to be ugly and xenophobic.

I also really liked how the Great War affected so many characters in the game. When you find out the Thalmor tortured Ulfric and let him think he let the Imperial City fall, you have a lot of insight into why he feels he has to atone for. It creates an interesting and complex character who is, ultimately, irrelevant to the march of history because someone much more important in the Dragonborn comes around.

My second favorite character after Ulfric Stormcloak was probably Balgruuf because he, too, was an interesting and complex character. You had a guy who wasn't nearly as straightforward or honorable as he claimed to be but still was a straight shooter and friend to you. For me, the hardest choice in the game wasn't whether to side with the Stormcloaks or Imperials but whether to betray Balgruuf to side with my cause.

The most in-depth conversation for me in the game was probably Paarthurnax as it was still an epic moment for me to travel up the side of the mountain and have conversations with said epic dragon. It was a poorly justified choice between him and the Blades but, at least it was a choice.

For me, I think it was a lot of the little moments which really brought the game to life for me. You couldn't have the same kind of conversations you did in other games but in Windhelm, you could listen in on the smith and his daughter as they debated what they were going to do with their lives. Things like how the innkeeper wants to leave her place to Ysolde and asking the Priestess of Diabella if you can get private lessons only to get shot down.

Skyrim felt like a world which existed beyond the purposes of being there for your amusement and I loved it for it.

Basically, I agree a lot with Angry Joe

 
Te complexity and debth you're talking about is just superficial though. Like I said, as wide like an ocean, as shallow like a puddle. But hey! If you had fun with the game, good. I won't argue about that. But I feel that you kinda like the game for the wrong reasons and for something that isn't actually there, like a form of cognitive dissonance. Again, what you describe is just scratching on the surface of things. What the game does, is that it allows you to fullfill power fantasies, which is OK I guess, but not necessarily something that makes a role playing game a great role playing game.
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Imagine if the Plansecape characters worked like in Skyrim, you would have zero chance to fail conversations and on top of it, someone like Daokkon or Morte would simply reveal EVERYTHING about them self like in the first 30 min. of playing, making a second playtrough or actuall role playing meaningless.
 
Te complexity and debth you're talking about is just superficial though. Like I said, as wide like an ocean, as shallow like a puddle. But hey! If you had fun with the game, good. I won't argue about that. But I feel that you kinda like the game for the wrong reasons and for something that isn't actually there, like a form of cognitive dissonance. Again, what you describe is just scratching on the surface of things.

Okay sure but I think Ulfric's story is every bit as deep as Deionarra's. After all she's ONLY a ghost manipulated by Practical. Which isn't an insult, it's me saying I am confused why you think one is deep and one isn't. But, yeah, I understand we disagree on this.

In any case, thanks for discussing this with me guys.

Now, I must decide between Dark Souls, Telltale's Batman, and Mankind Divided (the latter two I started but didn't finish).
 
Except, that when it comes to Planescape Deionarra is actually something that can be seen like a minor character(!) compared to the interaction you can have with your companions for example ... and in Skyrim Ulfric is a leading NPCs ... and doesn't even hold water to her if you ask me. Not even close to it. There isn't even nearly enough interaction between the player and Ulfric - or any other NPCs for that matter - to be on the same level like some of the more interesting NPCs of planescape. I am not sure where you would even get the idea to compare them.

You know, it feels a little bit right now, like you would be comparing the quality of the characters in Dune with Transformers, saying that they had the same amount of complexity and debth with the reasoning that Meggan Fox had nice tits and that Transformers is 'kinda' science fiction.
 
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Except, that when it comes to Planescape Deionarra is actually something that can be seen like a minor character(!) compared to the interaction you can have with your companions for example ... and in Skyrim Ulfric is a leading NPCs ... and doesn't even hold water to her if you ask me. Not even close to it. There isn't even nearly enough interaction between the player and Ulfric - or any other NPCs for that matter - to be on the same level like some of the more interesting NPCs of planescape. I am not sure where you would even get the idea to compare them.

Because at the end of the day, her character story is basically just that she was a mark for Practical. I find a lot of interesting storyline, though, with the concept of Ulfric trying to be the ultimate hero and all of his efforts to craft the image versus the actual mythology of the Dragonborn.

Clearly you don't.

But our arguments seem to be, "Skyrim is a shallow game with no depth."
"Skyrim has a lot of depth and intersting story."
"No it's not."
"Yes, it really is."

I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure how we could measure it.
 
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