R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
I've always felt this was unfair. Especially considering how oblivion clearly had a lot of love and care put into it and fallout 3 is practically slapped together in almost every aspect.
Why is Fallout 3 called "Oblivion with guns"?
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Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
It is the only requirement really. The rest of the game world need not include the West Coast at all, and could be entirely original content.
When Tim Cain began work on the game, he designed the combat engine.
Fallout's perspective, and its combat design are not arbitrary; as should be obvious—no?
The entire world setting was an afterthought; (though a brilliant one).
Its original impetus was to be the best available G.U.R.P.S. title on the PC, and they spent several years doing it—before having the rug pulled out from under them by Steve Jackson Games. Here is what Aimed shots looked like at a time before:
If you are writing an analysis of the Fallout series, then you are treading a path with some steep competition.
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mfkndggrfll
Still Mildly Glowing
Sorry for hijacking this thread with F2 stuff... But about calling it OwG I feel like people are saying it in a diminishing manner, Oblivion brought so much QoL and technical improvements for the genre, and F3 improved it further. To me Oblivion is a symbol of polish and content hand crafted by people who cared.
Also I am not writing any sort of analysis, I am just doing one.
@Gizmojunk Quoting the guy talking about F2 ''Its not exactly a true wasteland anymore, its more a fun-tier...'' He also mentions how fans of the series started bashing it before it even came out. Very interesting vid so far. Overall if you listen to him F3 isnt all that bad.
Also I am not writing any sort of analysis, I am just doing one.
@Gizmojunk Quoting the guy talking about F2 ''Its not exactly a true wasteland anymore, its more a fun-tier...'' He also mentions how fans of the series started bashing it before it even came out. Very interesting vid so far. Overall if you listen to him F3 isnt all that bad.
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Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
While i don't think Oblivion is nowhere as bad as Fallout 3, i kind of disagree with the "had a lot of love and care put into it". To me this game that started that Bethesda trend of dumbing down their games like having next to no consequences in their quests. Most quests having only one outcome (or all of them, can't remember). Being able to be the leader of major factions for no reason (becoming Archemage of Mages Guild with barely needing to cast any spell or none at all). The whole world feels very nonreactive to your character with the exception of maybe infamy. The whole infamy thing is so stupid, like guards knowing you killed and stolen stuff, even if you were never caught.
And even with that, i kind of like this game.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Hell yes they are; but I don't think that the point is to slight Oblivion per se, rather that it is seen as beneath the Fallout IP to copy Oblivion so. Both Oblivion and Skyrim have an earned reputation of being like "an inch deep Ocean".
Indeed. Not every example or suggestion is hostile—or will have a negative slant to it. It's just mentioning a great analysis.
mfkndggrfll
Still Mildly Glowing
Well Norzan I think its time for a small historical lesson because Oblivion is NOT the game that started the dumbing down trend.
If Oblivion is a 1 inch deep ocean then F3 is at least a 2-3 inches deep lake. Skyrim is just a wet surface.
The guy did a great analysis but it felt more like F1 vs F3, the others didnt get as much attention.
If Oblivion is a 1 inch deep ocean then F3 is at least a 2-3 inches deep lake. Skyrim is just a wet surface.
The guy did a great analysis but it felt more like F1 vs F3, the others didnt get as much attention.
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R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
While all true the game also features basic world building things such as farms and a taxation bureau and many of the quests are the most memorable in any bethesda game. Which ain't saying much but still.
Kohno
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
But there were signs that the dumbing down was starting. The retcon of Cyrodiil from a vast tropical jungle with the Imperial city bearing architecture reminiscent of China/Japan (making the Empire seem like a blend of Rome, Japan and China) to a simple medieval fantasy setting was the largest indicator (probably technical limitations but I'd rather they try (and probably fail) to follow established lore set in the previous games than to retcon it - Morrowind and Daggerfall had describe Cyrodiil as being a tropical jungle with unique non-medieval fantasy cultures). Plus the MMO made the retcon permanent. I could also argue that Oblivion should have had a Temple/Imperial Cult faction like Morrowind that made PCs go on pilgrimages, heal sick people, request alms from various groups and other work that showcases how a religious organization would operate.
Other things would be how straightforward the writing of the Main Quest becomes compared to the Rashomon styled and alternative character interpretation-filled Main Quest of Morrowind (or more accurately the lore surrounding the MQ), fast travel and map markers.
However, I do agree that Oblivion does have effort put into it compared to Skyrim or Bethesda's Fallout games. Their guild quests are long and numerous enough that it does not feel entirely unjustified for a PC to advance to higher ranks (though Morrowind did it best with the skill requirement and it is still ridiculous when a non-magic user becomes Archmage) plus there were decent quests every now and then (like the DB's Whodunit which if played the way it is meant to) plus their side quests were superior to the radiant quest bullshit from Skyrim and FO4. They also had sensible world building for the cities at leastl.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Ah, Daggerfall and Morrowind, I miss those days when Bethesda managed to put out quality works instead of pumping out generic fantasy for the bucks.
mfkndggrfll
Still Mildly Glowing
It breaks my heart when people point the finger at Oblivion for dumbing down TES... its the 2nd best TES game even if its dumber. Morrowind started the dumbing down trend... theres been more dumbing down with Morrowind than Oblivion....
Indeed, technically it started with Morrowind. But the dumbing down from Daggerfall to Morrowind was pretty reasonable and didn't take away too much, and Morrowind remained to be a pretty complex game. The step from Morrowind to Oblivion just felt more severe than the step from Daggerfall to Morrowind, even though Oblivion followed Morrowind closer in some design choices than Morrowind followed Daggerfall.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
It goes by many names. Streamlining, simplifying, efficiency, etc. At the end of the day however, its dumbing down, much like how new WoW is much more streamlined than old WoW.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Morrowind, even if dumbed down from Daggerfall, still felt like an actual RPG. There's still depth and complexity in its rpg elements, you know, the stuff that matters.
There's barely any RPG elements in Oblivion, unless you count the superficial ones. The world barely reacts to your choices, expect when the guards treat you like shit when you have high infamy (this one is also stupid). Quests with no different outcomes for different alignments. You become a Gary Stu/Mary Sue that is perfect at everything and being able to be the leader of major factions, even if it makes no sense (like Mages Guild without casting a spell).
The point is that the dumbing down from Morrowind to Oblivion is far more severe than the one from Daggerfall to Morrowind.
There's barely any RPG elements in Oblivion, unless you count the superficial ones. The world barely reacts to your choices, expect when the guards treat you like shit when you have high infamy (this one is also stupid). Quests with no different outcomes for different alignments. You become a Gary Stu/Mary Sue that is perfect at everything and being able to be the leader of major factions, even if it makes no sense (like Mages Guild without casting a spell).
The point is that the dumbing down from Morrowind to Oblivion is far more severe than the one from Daggerfall to Morrowind.
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mfkndggrfll
Still Mildly Glowing
Id love to see you try to prove that.
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Agree. The East BoS being different from West BoS is something that pleases me.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
What? It is now simpler than before!?
I once installed the demo for WoW; it gave me 10 free days to play. It was uninteresting, and I uninstalled it in less than an hour.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Hell yeah WoW was 'streamlined', the same way Diablo 3 was compared to 2.
For one example, we Warlocks used to have many builds and access to multiple abilities. We could have something like SS, or , soul link siphon life.
Same with the Paladins abilities and talents.
Simply google the difference between vanila WoW and current WoW.
Subsequent iterations cut down on the amount of abilities and talents available.
For one example, we Warlocks used to have many builds and access to multiple abilities. We could have something like SS, or , soul link siphon life.
Same with the Paladins abilities and talents.
Simply google the difference between vanila WoW and current WoW.
Subsequent iterations cut down on the amount of abilities and talents available.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Plus IIRC on the UESP section for Oblivion, there is or was a section to teach readers how to role-play. It's quite a telling sign that it is this game that provides a guide to role-play, in a supposed RPG...
EDIT: Found it! http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying and as a bonus, here is the one on Skyrim: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Roleplaying
To be fair, there is an entry for a deleted Morrowind roleplay page but again it's deleted.
As for RP value, Morrowind had that when compared to Oblivion to an extent and Skryim to a large extent. There was a proper sense of progression from early to late game, NPCs recognised the player's accomplishments (especially from completing the Main Quest), advancement in factions was locked up until the PC trains up properly among others. The streamlining may have started with Morrowind but it only became bad with Oblivion and Skyrim.
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"Proving" is a bit hard, but we can for example look at a few numbers.
Morrowind reduced the amount of usable skills from 35 to 27, which was reduced to 21 in Oblivion.
The reduction in Morrowind mostly involved the reduction of skills like languages (six skills already) and merging of some combat skills. Skills like Stealing was put into Sneak, other skills that were changed were stuff like turning Dodging into Unarmored.
Backstabbing was turned into a sneak attack bonus.
There is some definite streamlining here, but the combat skill complexity is still the same. In Morrowind you still have nine combat skills where Oblivion has seven, removing medium armor, spears, and axes from the game. There is some further shifting of categories, so the numbers don't say too much, actually.
I'd say Morrowind just streamlined some superfluous skills and combined a few others (I mean, creature language skills are nice and all, but kinda bloated). I do miss the climbing skill, though.
Oblivion removed a bit more substantial skills. Shoving the Axe skill into Blunt Weapons for example, removing spears as a skill and weapon and removing crossbows yet again...
Removing Enchanting, too. Where Morrowind retained a lot about the frankly annoying and hard spell system of Daggerfall (readying spells, being able to fail spells) Oblivion really streamlined and simplified it. You can never fail casting spells, and you can go into melee while doing so. The removal of a lot of different spell effects (on touch, on target, around target...) also came into effect. Being able to actively block is nice, and weapon hits no longer being dependent on dice rolls feels a bit better than the frankly ridiculously ineffective swinging you do in Morrowind from time to time, but all in all Oblivion is a game that is much simpler than Morrowind, and not just in a good way. Having to decipher your destination from your journal instead of just following quest markers around and having to plan your journey on your map instead of fast-traveling to the nearest available point was a big part of the roleplaying experience, and Oblivion did take quite a bit away from it.
And while the flora and fauna of Vvardenfell is unique, Oblivion did go needlessly generic with its style. The Ayleid ruins were just not as cool or unique as the dwemer ruins or even the ancient dunmer fortresses or the daedric temples. With Oblivion, TES went back to being mostly generic fantasy again. The previous installments weren't exactly very unique in terms of artistic direction, but the lore was certainly original. While Oblivion did well on the lore, the artistic direction was just... Kinda uninspired. At least compared to Morrowind, which went all out on the weirdness, which was great.