Why Mothership Zeta is awesome

[CT Phipps]

Well that's an unrealistic, shallow and rather childish approach to showcase humanity's traits in that case. I'd go so far as to say that it sounds like a very bad Power Rangers episode that only knows how to shove in platitudes on humanity being awesome without actually pointing out precisely why and how while not analysing the idea deeper.

Except that some seasons of Power Rangers are a lot more mature than that except for the bad seasons so I'll end my comparison there since it would be an insult to Power Rangers to compare it to the bad aspects of Mothership Zeta.

Can you explain....WHY you feel, "The idea of humanity being able to band together against threats but unable to build" is a shallow idea? You know, versus talking about the inability of humanity to overcome war is something the Power Rangers apparently talk about.

For me, the idea of Mothership Zeta is that there's an existential threat against a group of misfits who manage to overcome it but their immediate reaction thereafter is to split. They can't join together to make a permanent bond and immediately lose any benefit from it.

It's less important than the pew pew but nicely sticks with the setting's themes. It's also why I think NCR should break up.

 

[Atomkilla]

For me, the idea of Mothership Zeta is that there's an existential threat against a group of misfits who manage to overcome it but their immediate reaction thereafter is to split. They can't join together to make a permanent bond and immediately lose any benefit from it.

And this is supposed to be important or meaningful in any way?

 

[Jogre]

It's also why I think NCR should break up.

Wait, so it's been 200 years, and you want the only nation that's arisen out of the ashes to break up?

Mate, NCR is one of the only factions in the entire universe that actually shows a realistic level of rebuilding. To kill them off would make the entire world of Fallout no better than the shithole ruins Bethesda think we want.

 

[Throatpunch]

Wait, so it's been 200 years, and you want the only nation that's arisen out of the ashes to break up?

Mate, NCR is one of the only factions in the entire universe that actually shows a realistic level of rebuilding. To kill them off would make the entire world of Fallout no better than the shithole ruins Bethesda think we want.

NCR needs to go in my opinion. But in an awesome way.

Like Legion winning in FNV, and the Legion sacking most of California.

But the last veteran rangers die gloriously surrounded by piles of Legion dead. Fuck yeah.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

Wait, so it's been 200 years, and you want the only nation that's arisen out of the ashes to break up?

Mate, NCR is one of the only factions in the entire universe that actually shows a realistic level of rebuilding. To kill them off would make the entire world of Fallout no better than the shithole ruins Bethesda think we want.

But Fallout isn't about rebuilding. It's about the wasteland. That's why 3 and 4 are better than 1 and New Vegas.

f f f f f fact

 

[Throatpunch]

But Fallout isn't about rebuilding. It's about the wasteland. That's why 3 and 4 are better than 1 and New Vegas.

f f f f f fact

You shitpost too much

f f f f f fact

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

What would be the benefit of the NCR breaking up?. It would reset everything back to zero, it would basically be Bethesdas Fallout where everything is just anarchy,and raiders.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

You shitpost too much

f f f f f fact

One can never shitpost too much.

What would be the benefit of the NCR breaking up?. It would reset everything back to zero, it would basically be Bethesdas Fallout where everything is just anarchy,and raiders.

The whole of the Fallout US basically being a few little settlements surrounded by tons of raiders?

No thanks, I'd rather see what new factions have arisen from the nuclear ashes and how they interact with each other.

 

[CerberusGate]

Can you explain....WHY you feel, "The idea of humanity being able to band together against threats but unable to build" is a shallow idea? You know, versus talking about the inability of humanity to overcome war is something the Power Rangers apparently talk about.

Well, such an idea is rather condescending towards humanity in the Fallout setting. Such an idea in Fallout seems to suggest that all mankind can do is band together but never stick together to create and build something from the ashes. The fact that post-apocalyptic civilisation can emerge and persevere in the setting despite the odds is testament that humanity is capable of banding together when it is necessary and can build on that collaboration (even rebuilding some form of civilisation that we see in 1, 2 and New Vegas).

As for the Power Rangers analogy, they're still fighting evil despite all the evil villains they've defeated throughout the seasons so there is an inability to overcome war; though since it's a kid's show, humans generally are not the direct causes (and more in seasons where the writers actually puts in effort. Mind you, they even had a post-apocalyptic setting for one season and from what bits I've seen, there is good effort put into that season's writing).

Simply using such an idea at face value (in the context of Zeta) without allowing for deeper exploration of such an idea is shallow no matter how you look at it and the fact that you can acknowledge that the pew pew is more important in Zeta than your idea suggests that you're relying on the classic method of using head-canon to make a flawed and shallow product seem better than it actually is.

Also, the NCR falling apart immediately for the sake of your idea is a rather asinine option for the setting to take. I don't mind the NCR falling apart but if it does so, it should be a slow and drawn out to bring about new notions and ideas for the kind of nations that could arise in the post-NCR period, triggering debate over which approach and style of governance to take for these newly forming nations. It collapsing since it does not fit your idea is simply fanciful wishful thinking.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

You don't shitpost enough
f f f f f fact

fi4u

 

[CT Phipps]

Wait, so it's been 200 years, and you want the only nation that's arisen out of the ashes to break up?

Mate, NCR is one of the only factions in the entire universe that actually shows a realistic level of rebuilding. To kill them off would make the entire world of Fallout no better than the shithole ruins Bethesda think we want.

Oh absolutely, I love NCR but one hundred years of peace and prosperity is way too fucking long. Break it up into feuding balkanized states at the very least. As for it being a shithole, yeah, that's kind of the point.

The world is RUINED.

NCR needs to go in my opinion. But in an awesome way.

Like Legion winning in FNV, and the Legion sacking most of California.

But the last veteran rangers die gloriously surrounded by piles of Legion dead. Fuck yeah.

Yeah, I'm with you.

The whole point is humanity will never get its shit together.

What would be the benefit of the NCR breaking up?. It would reset everything back to zero, it would basically be Bethesdas Fallout where everything is just anarchy,and raiders.

Yeah, which is the way it should be.

I'm happy to explain why if people want to hear it but the short version is the world should be broken and unfixable. Humanity has to cope with the fact there's no bandaid for the nuclear apocalypse but they've condemned themselves to live in a life of struggle for the rest of existence.

 

[CerberusGate]

but the short version is the world should be broken and unfixable. Humanity has to cope with the fact there's no bandaid for the nuclear apocalypse but they've condemned themselves to live in a life of struggle for the rest of existence.

I'm seeing head-canon being mistaken as fact from you again.

The problem with that idea is that anarchy never lasts. At some point, a group of people will attempt to enforce order in their own ways and as the current setting in the West Coast shows, some form of order can exist. Sure it's doomed to fail but humanity will keep trying since humanity is persistent like that. The approach Black Isle and Obsidian took with the post-apocalyptic setting of Fallout (that humanity has some limited success in rebuilding) is a rather thought-provoking approach to take to me at least since most post-apocalyptic stories tend to be focused on how things are never gonna get better. It's more interesting to see how such a situation and process of recovery progresses naturally.

Bethesda's post-apocalyptic shithole idea for the setting should be scrapped entirely since the present setting happens to be many years after the bombs fell, giving normal rational people (which the East Coast seems to be lacking) the time to rebuild some form of order out of the chaos.

 

[CT Phipps]

I'm seeing head-canon being mistaken as fact from
you again.

I'm talking about what I think Fallout should be from my appreciation of the series and I agree with Chris Avellone on it. That's not headcanon, that's literary analysis and preference.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/intervie...s-and-dlc-post-mortem-interview-part-one.html
http://www.gamebanshee.com/intervie...s-and-dlc-post-mortem-interview-part-two.html

The problem with that idea is that anarchy never lasts. At some point, a group of people will attempt to enforce order in their own ways and as the current setting in the West Coast shows, some form of order can exist. Sure it's doomed to fail but humanity will keep trying since humanity is persistent like that. The approach Black Isle and Obsidian took with the post-apocalyptic setting of Fallout (that humanity has some limited success in rebuilding) is a rather thought-provoking approach to take to me at least since most post-apocalyptic stories tend to be focused on how things are never gonna get better. It's more interesting to see how such a situation and process of recovery progresses naturally.

I used to write for Permuted Press and reviewed post-apocalypse books for five years extensively. I don't actually know that many series where it was stated they were never going to get better. In fact, Fallout being a new and eternal life people have to get used to with the post-apocalyptic world as the status quo is one of the more interesting takes on the subject.

Bethesda's post-apocalyptic shithole idea for the setting should be scrapped entirely since the present setting happens to be many years after the bombs fell, giving normal rational people (which the East Coast seems to be lacking) the time to rebuild some form of order out of the chaos.

Again, Chris Avellone believes the world is getting too civilized and too tame so it should be nuked back to the Stone Age, I agree.

 

[Einhanderc7]

To the title of this thread. No, just no, you are incorrect and Mothership Zeta is just wrong. Aliens have no place in fallout other than in the case of "wild wasteland" type of encounter.

 

[CT Phipps]

To get back to Mothership Zeta,

I really enjoyed the characters, the setting, and the design. It was a nice break from the bleak browns and grim grime of the Capital Wasteland. I prefer to see Fallout not as a 100% serious setting but as a strange and bizarre one with a lot of humor as well as out there events. There's plenty of series which take themselves deadly serious and try to make everything grimdark (and I love me some grimdark on occassion) but I don't think Fallout is one of them.

For me, the purpose of the DLC is meant to give the players of Fallout 3 something new and different to play after hundreds of hours of exploring the ruins of D.C. For that, Mothership Zeta exceeded tremendously. I also felt it was a nice change of pace from the darkness of the Pitt and the relative emptiness of Point Lookout.

Is it something to take seriously? No, absolutely not. You'll probably hate it if you feel the desire to make Fallout into something as lore-focused as Game of Thrones. Instead, I generally prefer my writing to be more like The Dresden Files in there's ultra-serious stuff interspersed with crazines like an undead T-Rex or Bob the Skull.

 

[Jogre]

but one hundred years of peace and prosperity is way too fucking long

During the events of New Vegas its actually 92 years.

And they have never even been close to peace and prosperity. Like think about it this way.

In the most prosperous time of the NCRs history(Tandi's reign), shit was still kinda bad. Like, they ended up making an alliance with a powerful crime-family in order to establish greater control over the north, they were conflicting with Vault City, a neighboring city state, and conflict nearly got violent, they were being terrorised by a group of Raiders laying part of there territory under siege, and despite measures being taken to combat corruption, still Cattle Barons held a powerful vote. Plus far-right movements were threatening a dictatorship.

Note that said time was the most prosperous time in there history.

After Tandi's death, they've constantly been in conflict with Tribals, ended up having entire lakes occupied by bandits, lost all efforts to colonise Mexico to Raider Tribes, got themselves in to a brutal war with the Brotherhood of Steel(And after years of fighting one of the most powerful factions on the West Coast didn't even destroy them), They've practically been overtaken by corruption from cattle barons, they are overextended and struggling to hold on to any new territory they absorb.

Let's not mention that they are now in a state of total war against a fascist dictatorship that rivals them as a superpower.

IMHO, they have had enough of there fair of troubles for it to be realistic.

As for it being a shithole, yeah, that's kind of the point.

The world is RUINED.

If you think that's the point of Fallout is that everything is ruined, clearly you missed the point.

The point of Fallout isn't supposed to be that the world is ruined, the point is that it's a new world. When you see The Hub, or Shady Sands, or Junktown, your not supposed to think "Gee whiz, the world sure was ruined", you are supposed to accept that this is the way the world is, and that people are getting on by just by themselves. These places never gave me a feeling of desolation, and ruin, but rather just seemed to be getting by just fine. It wasn't so much pity towards them I felt, so much as acceptance that this is how the world is now.

And lets talk about the endings of Fallout. In the canonical ending, Shady Sands grows in to a republic and spreads across all of California, The Hub maintains its place as a trading giant, The Brotherhood thrive, Junktown becomes a far fairer place, and the gangs end up being cleared up.

That doesn't seem to me to be trying to say "The world will be ruined forever and ever", that seems to be telling me that times are changing, and that the world moves on, places grow and adapt.

 

[CT Phipps]

If you think that's the point of Fallout is that everything is ruined, clearly you missed the point.

I generally ascribe to the belief that "the point" is very much variable by its presentation. For example, I think Dumbledore was a manipulative asshole who doesn't deserve the respect he's given. But I'll address that particular element.

The point of Fallout isn't supposed to be that the world is ruined, the point is that it's a new world. When you see The Hub, or Shady Sands, or Junktown, your not supposed to think "Gee whiz, the world sure was ruined", you are supposed to accept that this is the way the world is, and that people are getting on by just by themselves. These places never gave me a feeling of desolation, and ruin, but rather just seemed to be getting by just fine. It wasn't so much pity towards them I felt, so much as acceptance that this is how the world is now.

I think the perspective I got from playing Fallout 1 is that the world is a dangerous and shattered place. I felt a great deal of sadness from the fact Los Angeles has been eradicated by nuclear weapons and the only people who seem to have any knowledge of the past world are the ones in The Followers of the Apocalypse. I also felt a certain level of sympathy with Richard Grey's opinion humanity probably wouldn't be able to survive on its own so the extreme measures of creating Super Mutants was necessary.

With them destroyed, humanity's future was uncertain.

And lets talk about the endings of Fallout. In the canonical ending, Shady Sands grows in to a republic and spreads across all of California, The Hub maintains its place as a trading giant, The Brotherhood thrive, Junktown becomes a far fairer place, and the gangs end up being cleared up. That doesn't seem to me to be trying to say "The world will be ruined forever and ever", that seems to be telling me that times are changing, and that the world moves on, places grow and adapt.

Certainly, there's the Happy EndingTM of the original games if you choose the right level of choices and work to solve all of the problems which were afflicting the towns. I've even argued with the posters on the forums I felt the first two games were very optimistic. Amusingly, btw, I got shouted down and told, "No, the First Two games are NOT OPTIMISTIC! How could you say that!?"



But for the continuing series past that, I believe the games need to restrict the growth and allow things to come crashing down to maintain the franchise as well as underscore its themes.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

But for the continuing series past that, I believe the games need to restrict the growth and allow things to come crashing down to maintain the franchise as well as underscore its themes.

Then set the next game somewhere else. America will eventually rebuild (in the proper timeline), there are how many states that haven't been visited? Over 40?
Rebuilding is a major theme in Fallout, there needs to be progress in each game.

 

[CT Phipps]

Then set the next game somewhere else. America will eventually rebuild (in the proper timeline), there are how many states that haven't been visited? Over 40?
Rebuilding is a major theme in Fallout, there needs to be progress in each game.

Nope. Nuke it.

NUKE IT BACK TO THE STONE AGE.

My only intention was I wanted the player to feel like they were traveling the road to The End. The proper "The End" feel for any Fallout game lies in seeing the wreckage of the world before, all its architecture twisted and cracked and flooded with invisible fires, radiation, and seeing the grave of the world that was.

Lastly, I wanted to nuke the Fallout world to reset things. NCR's getting a bit big, and it's making things too civilized. Lonesome Road was a way of resetting the culture clock.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

NUKE IT BACK TO THE STONE AGE.

Someone as intelligent as you must realise that the themes of the DLC directly contradict...

wait a minute. Was that sarcasm? Aww Phippy I'm so proud of you <3