Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity

[Apollyon]

SNIP

Ok. This is turning into one abomination of a discussion, and deciphering what points are being made is getting a real hassle. I'm going to do my best to make things orderly, but if it turns into a clusterfuck again I am going to stop beating the proverbial dead horse.



1. Does House have popular support?
Having 'popular support' means the general public supports your rule. Apart from perhaps a handful of Chairmen and White Gloves (essentially the elite of Vegas and both factions that have their own beef with House), people generally disapprove of Mr. House's rule, especially anywhere outside the Strip. Almost universally people express they're happy when House is dead.

1a. Why does this matter?
Because if House's underlings do not want to be ruled by him, he's a tyrant and a bad leader of Vegas.



2. Is House a narcissist?
I guess we've agreed on this point; Yes.

2a. Why does this matter?
Wiki: "driven by unyielding arrogance, self-absorption, and a personal egotistic need for power and admiration". This pretty much sums up Mr. House.
Narcissism is an inherently destructive trait in a leader, because to a narcissist ego is more important than the well-being of his underlings. The Mojave is a clear example of this. He willfully excludes people from wealth and energy to further his own ambitions, regardless of what his underlings want. House wants to go to the stars, but do any of the inhabitants of the Mojave care about that? One person's ambitions is not a sufficient basis to rule a nation.



3. Is Vegas a positive thing for the Mojave?
Okay, I do not think we are going to agree on this, but to clarify my stance: I do not think the pros outweigh the cons in this situation. I can see how Vegas facilitates some trade, but for every tradepost along the I-15 there's also a slum in New Vegas that's filled with chem addicts, thugs and beggars.

3a. Why does this matter?
When talking of House's post-war achievements people often point to Vegas. I do not see Vegas as a positive thing for the Mojave, so I do not see it as a valid reason why House should be allowed to rule Vegas/the Mojave. In fact, I see it as a reason why House shouldn't rule Vegas or the Mojave.



4. What does megalomania mean?
Wiki: "A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence."
Considering House's huge ambitions regarding mankind, I'd say this applies.



5. Does Caesar have popular support?
Ofcourse, he does. The fact that his legionaries are "conditioned" doesn't change that. Everybody is "conditioned" by their culture, their upbringing, their past, etc. If they support him, they support him. That's that.

5a. does Caesar have popular support in the Mojave?
No, but the subject of this discussion in Mr. House, not Caesar or his Legion.



6. Does House end up ruling more than Vegas?
Ok, this means going into speculation, but I'll say this: If we're going by the ending slides, any of House's ambitions should be kept out of the discussion. If you do want to use Mr. House's ambitions as part of your argument, we have to assume he extends his rule beyond Vegas and the Mojave, considering he wants to revive the high-tech sectors and put people into space. He may even have to conquer all of the U.S. to furfill those ambitions. So, what's it going to be?



7. Did Robert House help the U.S. military develop weapons?
The short answer is yes, but the details of what he developed are unclear. Could it have been rockets? I argue yes, because he owned REPCONN. But I admit this is speculation on my part and I think we should keep this out of the discussion.




Please try to stick to these points as much as possible (unless I missed something important). If we can keep things orderly, it just makes the discussion a lot more pleasant.

 

[President_Peaches]

Anyway, from his sentence he doesn't really imply of completely abandoning earth behind; it's just that sending colony ships away from earth is his grand plan of a solution to prevent anything like the Great War from happening ever again. We know that famine and starvation is still a problem in the post-apocalyptic world, at least in NCR, and I would assume House has the knowledge of it, hence his plan of sending people to the orbit and colony ships to other planets as a part of his solution to those problems.

California is faced with a potential Malthusian crisis in the future due to population growth, poor soils and depletion of its fresh water reserves. The population growth is typical of a nation becoming industrialised, and combined with the hot, dry climate, this is a problem faced by many African countries today. For the NCR, the short term solution has been to seize more land and resources, but in the long term they need to improve their farming technology (that's why Dr Hildern sends you to Vault 22) and to curb population growth (family planning, controls on immigration etc.)

Shipping a bunch of people to the moon might temporarily decrease the population, but ultimately does nothing to help the wastelanders and Californians left on Earth.

Also how would a space colony prevent another Great War? What would stop the colonists eventually splitting into factions and having a conflict themselves?

 

[Risewild]

Shipping a bunch of people to the moon might temporarily decrease the population, but ultimately does nothing to help the wastelanders and Californians left on Earth.

It can help if the colonies are made in other planets and can grow food faster and more efficiently than on Earth. Then they can ship food back.

It also helps that other planets can have resources that are now depleted on Earth, so they can be extracted and sent back if needed.

It is not like House would make space colonies and planetary colonies and never look back to Earth. He is a businessman, so he wouldn't be abandoning anyone that is his customer/consumer.
He would probably make a chain of space stations and planetary/moon colonies and transport goods, manpower, resources and merchandise all between each other.

 

[Black Angel]

Ok. This is turning into one abomination of a discussion, and deciphering what points are being made is getting a real hassle. I'm going to do my best to make things orderly, but if it turns into a clusterfuck again I am going to stop beating the proverbial dead horse.

Oh my sweet summer child. This thread has been this way ever since the beginning of it. Just look at couple of old pages, you will see me discussing with another fellow Legion supporter @Dr Fallout (fuck I miss that guy).

1. Does House have popular support?
Having 'popular support' means the general public supports your rule. Apart from perhaps a handful of Chairmen and White Gloves (essentially the elite of Vegas and both factions that have their own beef with House), people generally disapprove of Mr. House's rule, especially anywhere outside the Strip. Almost universally people express they're happy when House is dead.

1a. Why does this matter?
Because if House's underlings do not want to be ruled by him, he's a tyrant and a bad leader of Vegas.

Spoiler

1. If you pay attention to these people who's anywhere outside the Strip, you'll notice the only ones who disapprove of Mr. House's rule are actually those from the NCR. Yes, even NCR citizens who's currently visiting the Strip, since some of them expressed their happiness regarding House's death with dialogues saying how it's going to be easier for the Mojave Campaign to reach its conclusion now: https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Generic_NCR_civilian_dialogue

"I always knew House would give in! Sixth state of the union, here we come!"
"With Mr. House dead and gone, Vegas can finally join the NCR!"
"House was the only thing keeping Vegas from joining the NCR!"

Other than the NCR, there are people like Arcade Gannon, who's a member of the Followers of the Apocalypse, and obviously the Legion would express their happiness with the death of such formidable opponent.

Meanwhile, the native inhabitants of the Mojave doesn't really care, but they're not exactly opposed to being ruled by Mr. House. Goodsprings? No comment. Primm? Nah ah. Novac? 188 Trading Post? Grub N' Gulp? The Boomers? Even those who resides in Freeside and Outer Vegas? They couldn't care less. But what's assured of their opinions is that they're tired of being pushed to join the NCR, and they're sure as hell will oppose the Legion to death.

1a. So now, if you think House not having popular support means he's a bad leader and mustn't be allowed to rule New Vegas, when the reality is speaking of something much more than letting someone with popular support to come out on top of the ongoing conflict, then you haven't really been paying attention to what's going on in the game.

2. Is House a narcissist?
I guess we've agreed on this point; Yes.

2a. Why does this matter?
Wiki: "driven by unyielding arrogance, self-absorption, and a personal egotistic need for power and admiration". This pretty much sums up Mr. House.
Narcissism is an inherently destructive trait in a leader, because to a narcissist ego is more important than the well-being of his underlings. The Mojave is a clear example of this. He willfully excludes people from wealth and energy to further his own ambitions, regardless of what his underlings want. House wants to go to the stars, but do any of the inhabitants of the Mojave care about that? One person's ambitions is not a sufficient basis to rule a nation.

Spoiler

By the start of New Vegas, his underlings consisted of the Three Families, and if you think their well-being aren't satisfied from working under Mr. House, then you must be blind. Meanwhile, the people you see in Freeside and Outer Vegas were either the other groups of tribal who decided not to join Mr. House (like the Great Khans), or were just bystanders when House came out of Lucky 38 to begin his recruitment of officers to run the Strip. What's happening to them in the game is their own fault because they refused to join Mr. House.... or not. It's too late for them to join him because when House signed that treaty with the NCR, he only get to keep the Strip independent, while letting them establishing an embassy there and set up a headquarter in McCarran. It's also why there's a relief effort meant to sway the inhabitants to support the NCR is possible in Freeside. Not to mention that since the conflict with the Legion weren't truly resolved, with only a handful of Securitrons fully occupied to keep order on the Strip, and the Three Families busy with catering to the tourists like NCR citizens and off-duty military personnel, House couldn't do much for the people outside the Strip.... for the time being. With the conflict resolved and the endings we see in the slides, I assure you Mr. House would begin assigning more and more native inhabitants of the Mojave who resides outside the Strip, at least the capable ones, of course.

So, once again I have to ask you, do people of the Mojave would really care about House being a narcissist? Especially since he's pretty much reclusive, keeping interaction with an average wastelander to the minimum, and had only let literally one person (the Courier) into the Lucky 38 after 200 years? And now, once again, I ask you, is House as a leader looks like he's affected by his narcissism, if we are going by his past achievements and the ending slides, in any meaningful degree?

3. Is Vegas a positive thing for the Mojave?
Okay, I do not think we are going to agree on this, but to clarify my stance: I do not think the pros outweigh the cons in this situation. I can see how Vegas facilitates some trade, but for every tradepost along the I-15 there's also a slum in New Vegas that's filled with chem addicts, thugs and beggars.

3a. Why does this matter?
When talking of House's post-war achievements people often point to Vegas. I do not see Vegas as a positive thing for the Mojave, so I do not see it as a valid reason why House should be allowed to rule Vegas/the Mojave. In fact, I see it as a reason why House shouldn't rule Vegas or the Mojave.

Spoiler

3. How does having a tradepost along the Mojave Outpost-New Vegas routes has anything to do with a slum in New Vegas getting filled with chem addicts, thugs, and beggars? Look man, it's a post-(post-post-)apocalyptic world, for fuck sake! Entertainment industry-oriented city like New Vegas would bound to have chem addicts, thugs, and beggars! But focusing on that isn't fair, don't you think? Because there are shitload of works to do in a post-(post-post-)apocalyptic world like the setting of Fallout. Rebuilding civilization from providing primary and secondary needs (like farming food and gathering clean, drinkable water) to maintaining tertiary needs (like establishing residential areas to house citizens and workers) to expanding and maintaining infrastructure like Hoover Dam.... and obviously all the tradings that played the major, if not THE most important role to rebuilding a New World. So, a bunch of chem addicts, thugs, and beggars filling slums of a city isn't really a bad point to keep hammering on simply because you don't think a man like Mr. House should rule New Vegas.

3a. Once again, it's a post-(post-post-)apocalyptic, mate. Like I said before, an infrastructure as seen in a city like New Vegas is a high-profile one (especially considering he set up the Strip in a relatively short time with the help of only a bunch of (reformed) tribal). Of course people are going to point towards Vegas! And House should definitely be allowed to rule even the Mojave, because all of what we see in the game (like good soil that allows a farmland as vast as NCR Sharecropper Farm, and clean water from Colorado River and Lake Mead, AND the Hoover Dam) wouldn't really possible if not for Mr. House's effort of stopping most of the nuclear missiles from hitting the Mojave Landscape. The NCR, and especially the inhabitants of the Mojave, practically owed Mr. House a lot.

4. What does megalomania mean?
Wiki: "A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence."
Considering House's huge ambitions regarding mankind, I'd say this applies.

Spoiler

So? What do you mean with my previous reply has nothing to do with this?

Because I'm sure as hell if he's actually one, he would completely assert his hold on power and domination. For example, no matter what the Kings do, he would completely wipe them out and take full control of Freeside, right? Turns out that is untrue, because if you escalate the conflict between the Kings and the NCR, House would see it as an act of loyalty by the Kings, so he leave them alone to, surprise surprise, control Freeside. If he's really a megalomaniac, he would assert complete control on Goodsprings instead of sending only Victor (who's now pretty familiar with the folks of Goodspring), or even assert complete control on Primm no matter if you assign Sheriff Meyers or Primm Slim to enforce the law in the town. And to finish off why House isn't a megalomaniac you think he is, I will quote a snippet of @Ragemage's old post from an old thread:

Show me where in this post of mine that has nothing to do with megalomania.

5. Does Caesar have popular support?
Ofcourse, he does. The fact that his legionaries are "conditioned" doesn't change that. Everybody is "conditioned" by their culture, their upbringing, their past, etc. If they support him, they support him. That's that.

5a. does Caesar have popular support in the Mojave?
No, but the subject of this discussion in Mr. House, not Caesar or his Legion.

Spoiler

5. What a load of complete horseshit.

5a. Look, you're trying to say that House aren't a good leader because he doesn't have popular support, hence why I'm bringing Caesar and Kimball as a direct comparison because they're the leaders of factions directly in opposition to Mr. House regarding authority over New Vegas and Mojave, and then I pointed out that the circumstances surrounding Mr. House's person means we can't judge House's leadership in the same manner as we judge Caesar and Kimball (or even any other real-life leaders, as a matter of fact. Especially, once again, it's a post-(post-post)apocalyptic world). So if you're just going to claim that House is a bad leader due to zero public support, and then not wanting to directly compare him to other leaders in the context of the game, then all I'm going to say to this part of the discussion you brought upon by yourself is that it's a load of complete horseshit.

6. Does House end up ruling more than Vegas?
Ok, this means going into speculation, but I'll say this: If we're going by the ending slides, any of House's ambitions should be kept out of the discussion. If you do want to use Mr. House's ambitions as part of your argument, we have to assume he extends his rule beyond Vegas and the Mojave, considering he wants to revive the high-tech sectors and put people into space. He may even have to conquer all of the U.S. to furfill those ambitions. So, what's it going to be?

Spoiler

You stated that House is a megalomaniac because he has huge ambitions regarding mankind, and then you want House's ambitions to be kept out of the discussion? Do you realize how fucking obnoxious that sounded?

And yes, I've already assumed he's going to extends his rule beyond New Vegas and the Mojave, especially since his dialogue lines confirmed it, like wanting to put people in orbit and sending colony ships into outer space, and also this:
starting from 3:51

Mr. House: "Back to Vegas, shall we? I really should do something about that monorail - with all the new resources at hand... I can make sure it not only runs, but runs on time. Always bothered me, the imprecision.

7. Did Robert House help the U.S. military develop weapons?
The short answer is yes, but the details of what he developed are unclear. Could it have been rockets? I argue yes, because he owned REPCONN. But I admit this is speculation on my part and I think we should keep this out of the discussion.

Spoiler

Could you at least actually read my posts? Because I've already mentioned, twice in two replies, that the developed weapons from the research program for the U.S. Military upon acquiring REPCONN is actually Q-35 Matter Modulator, a new model of plasma rifles! And to think it has anything to do with the Great War is just absurd! And once again, he's not making techs specifically for the U.S. Government and Military. Even then, the closest thing that can be said as a weapon specifically developed by RobCo for the military would be the Liberty Prime. And if there's anything else we would have seen it in the fucking game!

Edit: And yes, I agree this should be kept out of this discussion, since it's been proven as a tin-foil hat tier conspiracy theory.

California is faced with a potential Malthusian crisis in the future due to population growth, poor soils and depletion of its fresh water reserves. The population growth is typical of a nation becoming industrialised, and combined with the hot, dry climate, this is a problem faced by many African countries today. For the NCR, the short term solution has been to seize more land and resources, but in the long term they need to improve their farming technology (that's why Dr Hildern sends you to Vault 22) and to curb population growth (family planning, controls on immigration etc.)

Uhh, I'm not sure if curbing population growth in a post-(post-post-)apocalyptic world is a viable solution.... in fact, I'm not sure if it's a solution in the context of the setting at all.

Shipping a bunch of people to the moon might temporarily decrease the population, but ultimately does nothing to help the wastelanders and Californians left on Earth.

Once again, you're implying that House is just going to abandon earth altogether and only have cherrypicked groups of human to go to the orbit and boarding the colony ships.

Also how would a space colony prevent another Great War? What would stop the colonists eventually splitting into factions and having a conflict themselves?

You do know what caused the Great War in the first place, right? There are a lot of problems, but the main reason as shown in the intro of Fallout 1 is the energy crisis. Like Risewild said above, space colony can gather resources that is no longer available on Earth, letting those colony to thrives on its own and shipping the surplus back to Earth.

 

[Apollyon]

snip

1. This is false.
Mick: {Amused}People say Mr. House hasn't been heard from in a while. Good riddance.
Francine Garret: {Cheery}People are saying the Securitrons are acting funny. {Cold}I hope that old Geezer, House, is dead. Might give the locals a chance to take control.
Julie Farkas: If House is out of the picture, maybe we'll be able to get our hands on some of his technology. It would help our scientists greatly.
Rotface: When he first showed up, he gave the local tribes the choice of working with him or getting the hell out of his way. Given how things turned out, I know which way I'd have gone, but hindsight's twenty-twenty, right?
Local (in Freeside): House dead? Good riddance.
North Vegas Resident: We should reclaim the rest of the city, if the rumours about House are true.
North Vegas Resident: New Vegas... Paradise, my ass.
North Vegas Resident: That Mr. House that lorded over the Strip is dead. Good riddance, I say.

As for the rest of the Mojave; the majority of factions in the Mojave dislike Mr. House (NCR, Caesar's Legion, the Great Khans, BoS, the Followers, the Powder Gangers) and there's not a single faction that expresses a desire to be lorded over by him.
The ending slides also show (in endings that favour House) that his rule is seen as tyrannical (Primm and Goodsprings).

1a. Make a concise point.



2. Most of this post is irrelevant to what was being discussed. As for the last part: Should people care? Yes, clearly they should care. A person whose ego is more important than the well-being of his underlings should never be allowed to power. If you think otherwise, we have to agree to disagree, since I doubt either of us will change their mind.



3. It doesn't matter whether or not poverty is part of a post-apocalyptic world. The question is: is Vegas a positive thing for the Mojave? My answer is no. Using gambling and addiction to rob people of money is not a positive thing for the Mojave, and that's the majority of what Vegas does. Poverty in Vegas isn't a product of the post-apocalyptic world, it's a product of the way Mr. House chooses to run Vegas.

3a. What House did pre-war turned the Mojave in a more hospitable place. However, given his actions post-war, I believe those resources would be better off in the hands of the other factions. It's clear from the quests you do in F:NV to the ending slides that House's intention is to hoard everything for himself or use it to extort the population, instead of using it to fight the poverty and suffering that surrounds Vegas. He has the power to do a lot of good, but he refuses to do so. When House gets hold over the Dam he doesn't distribute the water to the Mojave. He hoards it for Vegas and sells it at exorbitant prices. In other words, his achievements pre-war do not weigh up to his behavior post-war.



4. Nothing in your post, or the post you quoted has to do with megalomania. If I understand your point correctly, you think House cannot be a megalomaniac because he doesn't assert his rule over everybody he can. First of all, asserting control over everything is not necessarily connected to megalomania. It can be, but it certainly doesn't have to be. Secondly, it's not clear whether towns like Goodsprings do not end up under his control because he doesn't want to control them, or because he simply can't. For example, choosing the NCR to rule over Primm is the weakest of all options. It could be that because of this weak defense House can afford to take it over, whereas if you had gone with the other options there'd be resistance. Goodsprings lies outside of House's reach and he cannot directly control securitrons there. That may very well be the reason he doesn't try to control it.



5. Eloquently worded.

5a. You're discussing a different point all together. The question is whether or not the citizens of the factions support their government or not. This is the case for Caesar's Legion and the NCR, but not for Mr. House. It's proven by the fact that Mr. House's underlings are actively trying to overthrow him.



6. You misinterpret my point, but I will elaborate. You said:

"If what you're saying is true, and a House-ruled Vegas means condemning *all* of the Mojave (if not larger parts of the US), then shouldn't these endings slides speaks of it?"

This, to me, means you are arguing Mr. House's ambitions do not cover the whole of the Mojave, because the ending slides do not show him owning it all. I say, fair enough, but if you are willing to argue that Mr. House would not extend his rule outside of Vegas, you cannot argue that he is going to put people into space, because clearly that wouldn't be possible whilst only ruling Vegas.

Anyhow, you've already made clear that you do believe Mr. House would end up ruling the Mojave and possibly larger parts of the U.S., so we're in agreement here.



7. It's not a conspiracy theory. House developed weapons for the U.S. government thus, coming back to my original argument, he's not some kind of saint. He's a businessman who cares about money. Perhaps I wasn't clear initially, but to me this proves that pre-war and post-war he cared about money, not about humanity, further discrediting him as "the best hope for the wasteland and humanity."



Might I suggest we stop discussing points: 2 and 6.
I highly doubt we will come to any conclusion on 2, because our views of what a good and legitimate leader is are widely different.
6 because we are in agreement, as far as I can tell.

 

[Black Angel]

1. This is false.

Mick: {Amused}People say Mr. House hasn't been heard from in a while. Good riddance.
Francine Garret: {Cheery}People are saying the Securitrons are acting funny. {Cold}I hope that old Geezer, House, is dead. Might give the locals a chance to take control.

Both Mick and the Garrets are coming from a background of entrepreneurs, so such comments coming from them is no surprise. Especially not to mention that, due to their background, it also means their interest are not in line of other people's welfare.

Julie Farkas: If House is out of the picture, maybe we'll be able to get our hands on some of his technology. It would help our scientists greatly.
Rotface: When he first showed up, he gave the local tribes the choice of working with him or getting the hell out of his way. Given how things turned out, I know which way I'd have gone, but hindsight's twenty-twenty, right?

Julie Farkas is a member of the Followers of the Apocalypse. Not exactly a native inhabitant of the Mojave, and people like her are a bit on the naive side, don't you think? Meanwhile, Rotface pretty much expressed neutrality towards the idea of House being in charge.

Local (in Freeside): House dead? Good riddance.
North Vegas Resident: We should reclaim the rest of the city, if the rumours about House are true.
North Vegas Resident: New Vegas... Paradise, my ass.
North Vegas Resident: That Mr. House that lorded over the Strip is dead. Good riddance, I say.

I stand corrected, but

As for the rest of the Mojave; the majority of factions in the Mojave dislike Mr. House (NCR, Caesar's Legion, the Great Khans, BoS, the Followers, the Powder Gangers) and there's not a single faction that expresses a desire to be lorded over by him.

Spoiler

Of course those factions are bound to dislike House.

• NCR's government has been desperate to annex New Vegas and Mojave, so 7 years of being delayed would piss them off.
• Caesar's Legion sees House as an enemy because he allied with the NCR. The Great Khans disliked House because he drive them out of the ruins of Las Vegas.
• BoS would covet House's technologies, the Followers because they're a bunch of naives, etc etc

The Chairmen and the White Gloves Society are pretty much comfortable working under Mr. House, the Omertas was always a bunch of backstabbers but they will fall in line thanks to the Courier's intervention, or House will beat them to submission should the Courier failed. And just because not a single factions expresses a desire to be ruled over by him, doesn't mean they won't be okay when it comes down it. Again, you're completely ignoring the fact that House has been reclusive throughout the events that transpired, so it's hard for people to judge him based on his person. Because of that, they only have the events around them as a measure to judge him, and even then I'm sure none of them actually connected the dots between the Mojave being pretty much clean and spared from the fires of nuclear war and House single-handedly prevented most of the warheads from even touching the landscape. You're also completely ignoring what the folks at Goodspring, Primm, and Novac has to say about Mr. House (which is literally zero or just nothing of significance), but addressing the glaring difference between their opinion and those of the Freeside and Outer Vegas residents, you have to consider the fact that Goodspring, Primm, and Novac are far, far away from New Vegas, while the residents of Freeside and Outer Vegas are directly exposed to the life on the Strip, so they're bound to be envious and covet the welfare that the Strip has to offer.

The ending slides also show (in endings that favour House) that his rule is seen as tyrannical (Primm and Goodsprings).

*sigh* why couldn't you at least reread my previous replies so you don't make me repeat myself?

Spoiler

After Mr. House gained control of New Vegas, he sent a Securitron to Goodsprings as a token of appreciation for helping the Courier. Victor was a mixed blessing, however, as he continually monitored the town for Mr. House.

After Hoover Dam, Sheriff Meyers runs Primm with his own style of frontier justice. He deals with most folks fairly, but now and then someone winds up dead with little to no evidence against them. *or* Primm Slim proves to be an able-minded, if not able-bodied, sheriff for Primm. Due to his slow speed, some crooks get away without a scratch, but Primm continues to prosper under his watchful robotic eye. *or* Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Mr. House. As repayment for their NCR loyalty, Mr. House sends Securitrons to Primm to "protect" it and collect heavy taxes from its citizens.

Primm getting heavily monitored and taxed by Mr. House only happens if you let the NCR to enforce the law in the town, but NOT if you assign Meyers or Primm Slim to do the job. Meanwhile, the ending slide for Goodspring doesn't explicitly stated or even implying that House took control of the town and rule it tyrannically. You have to consider that, aside from Mr. House being out of the picture or not, there's practically no difference between House and Independent ending, so we can safely assume that, aside from getting monitored by one Securitron (Victor, of which the people of Goodspring has already been familiar with), "... Goodspring thrived. More travelers stopped by Goodsprings on their way to and from the Strip, and the locals grew prosperous from the traffic."

1a. Make a concise point.

What you're saying about what's happened/happening/will happen in the game = A.
What's actually happened/happening/will happen in the game = B.

2. Most of this post is irrelevant to what was being discussed. As for the last part: Should people care? Yes, clearly they should care. A person whose ego is more important than the well-being of his underlings should never be allowed to power. If you think otherwise, we have to agree to disagree, since I doubt either of us will change their mind.

Look at that. First, you're bringing up House isn't concerned with his underlings's well-being, I then replied to that part of your point, and then you said my reply was irrelevant to what was being discussed AND once again bringing up that House isn't concerned with his underlings's well-being.

Fine, so now I'll just ask you: who would you consider as Mr. House's underlings at the time when the game first started, if there's any? And then, how's their well-being as you see in the game?

3. It doesn't matter whether or not poverty is part of a post-apocalyptic world. The question is: is Vegas a positive thing for the Mojave? My answer is no. Using gambling and addiction to rob people of money is not a positive thing for the Mojave, and that's the majority of what Vegas does. Poverty in Vegas isn't a product of the post-apocalyptic world, it's a product of the way Mr. House chooses to run Vegas.

Holy fucking shit, you really are trying to change the fact that it wasn't just Outer Vegas suffering from poverty, but also the whole fucking Mojave, eh? Let me ask you, if I haven't already: are Goodspring, Primm, and Novac suffered from poverty BECAUSE of the Strip?
Oh, and also you're ignoring the fact that the entire Mojave Landscape is a fucking war-zone at that point.

3a. What House did pre-war turned the Mojave in a more hospitable place. However, given his actions post-war, I believe those resources would be better off in the hands of the other factions. It's clear from the quests you do in F:NV to the ending slides that House's intention is to hoard everything for himself or use it to extort the population, instead of using it to fight the poverty and suffering that surrounds Vegas.

Show me.

He has the power to do a lot of good, but he refuses to do so. When House gets hold over the Dam he doesn't distribute the water to the Mojave.

Why do he need to distribute the water when it's readily available in the Colorado River and Lake Mead? Not to mention Goodspring also have their own source of clean water. It's not fucking Fallout 3 where they made it seems like they have severe need for clean water, and do remember that the way bottlecaps work (considering they haven't change how it worked from Fallout 1 to New Vegas) means water is still an object of trading.

He hoards it for Vegas and sells it at exorbitant prices. In other words, his achievements pre-war do not weigh up to his behavior post-war.

Define exorbitant, unless you're also trying to say a nation as huge as the NCR is a third-world country?

4. Nothing in your post, or the post you quoted has to do with megalomania. If I understand your point correctly, you think House cannot be a megalomaniac because he doesn't assert his rule over everybody he can. First of all, asserting control over everything is not necessarily connected to megalomania. It can be, but it certainly doesn't have to be. Secondly, it's not clear whether towns like Goodsprings do not end up under his control because he doesn't want to control them, or because he simply can't. For example, choosing the NCR to rule over Primm is the weakest of all options. It could be that because of this weak defense House can afford to take it over, whereas if you had gone with the other options there'd be resistance. Goodsprings lies outside of House's reach and he cannot directly control securitrons there. That may very well be the reason he doesn't try to control it.

Spoiler

Then how do you actually define House being a megalomaniac in context of a post-(post-post-)apocalyptic world like New Vegas? No matter how you twist the definition, wouldn't it ends up just like the Big Brother in Orwell's 1984 (possessing power for the sake of possessing it)?
Towns like Goodsprings do not end up under his control, but he sends a Securitron (Victor) there anyway, simply because Goodsprings wasn't totally involved in the on-going conflict. And since it's on one of the major trade route, House still needs to monitor it, even though it kinds of annoys the townfolks comfort. Also, if you think Goodsprings lies outside of House's reach and that he cannot directly control securitrons there, how do you explain House taking over Primm?
And why do you think choosing NCR as law enforcer of Primm is the 'weakest' option? Unless you think one personnel like Sheriff Meyers and Primm Slim can single-handedly prevent House's upgraded Securitrons from taking the town by force, then I don't see how the NCR is the weakest option for law enforcers in Primm. No, just like for the reason regarding why House eliminate the Kings, House actually take over Primm because, in his eyes, they're "lying with a foreign invader" when they willingly get annexed by the NCR. House sees Primm's annexation as their betrayal to the independence of the Mojave, hence why the ending slide specifically worded is as, "As repayment for their NCR loyalty, Mr. House sends Securitrons to Primm to "protect" it and collect heavy taxes from its citizens."

5. Eloquently worded.

5a. You're discussing a different point all together. The question is whether or not the citizens of the factions support their government or not. This is the case for Caesar's Legion and the NCR, but not for Mr. House. It's proven by the fact that Mr. House's underlings are actively trying to overthrow him.

Spoiler

5. Indeed. There's just no better way to reply to such an obnoxious argument.

On a more serious note, I didn't mean saying those to the fact that Caesar has public support, but to your argument about how the Legion being conditioned or not 'doesn't change it'. To me, the support gained by a leader must be genuine, as in it must come from the public wholeheartedly. You would agree House actually have support from the Three Families (once the Courier solved the Omertas problem, that is), no? The difference between the Three Families and the Legion is that, the Three Families were once given the freedom to choose to whether or not to work for Mr. House, while the Legion are not. Hence why I say your notion of Caesar having genuine public support is a complete horseshit.

5a. Well, the Strip faction supported Mr. House. Benny is but one man among the Chairmen, the Omertas wouldn't even dare if they don't have the Legion backing them, and the White Glove Society aren't even participating with the politics outside their circle. And aside from few individuals commenting how they hated House, the rest of Freeside and Outer Vegas, and the Mojave Wasteland as a whole, doesn't really have a strong opinion of whether they're for or against House.

6. You misinterpret my point, but I will elaborate. You said:

"If what you're saying is true, and a House-ruled Vegas means condemning *all* of the Mojave (if not larger parts of the US), then shouldn't these endings slides speaks of it?"

This, to me, means you are arguing Mr. House's ambitions do not cover the whole of the Mojave, because the ending slides do not show him owning it all. I say, fair enough, but if you are willing to argue that Mr. House would not extend his rule outside of Vegas, you cannot argue that he is going to put people into space, because clearly that wouldn't be possible whilst only ruling Vegas.

Anyhow, you've already made clear that you do believe Mr. House would end up ruling the Mojave and possibly larger parts of the U.S., so we're in agreement here.

No. In fact, YOU are the one who's misinterpreted my point. When I said, "If what you're saying is true, and a House-ruled Vegas means condemning *all* of the Mojave (if not larger parts of the US), then shouldn't these endings slides speaks of it?", I was objecting to your argument about how House-ruled Vegas will *condemn all* of the Mojave. In fact, I was objecting to the notion that House's rule will *condemn* anything or anyone at all! And also, I say you're being obnoxious when you said we have to keep House's ambitions out of this discussion when, at the same time, you defined House's being a megalomaniac based on his ambitions.

But yeah, other than that, I think we are on the same page that Mr. House would end up ruling the Mojave and larger parts of the U.S., but to elaborate further I think Mr. House wouldn't actually *directly* rule anything else other than New Vegas, unless they give him a reason to (like Freeside because the Kings reconciled with the NCR, and Primm).

7. It's not a conspiracy theory. House developed weapons for the U.S. government thus, coming back to my original argument, he's not some kind of saint. He's a businessman who cares about money. Perhaps I wasn't clear initially, but to me this proves that pre-war and post-war he cared about money, not about humanity, further discrediting him as "the best hope for the wasteland and humanity."

Look, I've already made it clear that U.S. Government and Military aren't RobCo's only customer, and if there's any weapons House developed specifically for them, it would be Liberty Prime, and that's it. The weapon research program initiated for the Military upon REPCONN's acquisition is to replace the aging designs of old plasma rifles models, hence why the notion that House contributed anything meaningful or even at all to the Great War is absurd! Oh yes, that's also part of your original argument, and I quote:

He's a businessman, only interested in making money (reinforced by the way he uses the Strip to drain money out of the population of the Mojave). RobCo made military equipment (hell, he probably contributed to the nukes that destroyed humanity) and household robots. Why would this person suddenly care about the fate of humanity more than filling his own pockets?

As for House being a businessman who only cares about money, I think @Cobra Commander already made a counter-argument to that, which is:

House is a captain of the Industry. And as such, it only thrives if mankind also thrives, money needs to flow. Does it really matter if it's for his own benefit? It clearly matters to you.

Might I suggest we stop discussing points: 2 and 6.

I highly doubt we will come to any conclusion on 2, because our views of what a good and legitimate leader is are widely different.

6 because we are in agreement, as far as I can tell.

Not really. I'm sure we actually have pretty much same views of what a good and legitimate leader in real-life truly is. It's just that I have different view about this when placed in context of a world like Fallout.
Meanwhile, for point 6 I'm sure we can still have room for discussion after I elaborated further, as shown above.

 

[Apollyon]

Snip

1. Those are all very good reasons why people would dislike Mr. House, but that doesn't change the fact that they dislike Mr. House, which is exactly my point.
The indifference of towns like Primm, Goodsprings and Novac doesn't change much. (I get back to Primm/Goodsprings endings at point 4.)

1a. That's not making a point. Write down a sentence with a premise.



2 & 3. I consider all of New Vegas a responsibility of Mr. House, except those parts ruled by the NCR. Firstly, because he created most of the situation as we see it when F:NV starts. Secondly, because he has the power to change this situation but refuses to do so on numerous occasions. I don't consider the situations of, for example, Novac, Primm, etc. as a direct responsibility of his, however one cannot deny that he influences these settlements because people from these settlements visit Vegas and lose their money (possibly more) there.



3a. Ending slides: "Mr. House's Securitron army took control of Hoover Dam and the Strip, pushing both the Legion and the exhausted NCR out of New Vegas. Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, a despotic vision of pre-War glory. The streets were orderly, efficient, cold. New Vegas continued to be the sole place in the wasteland where fortunes were won and lost in the blink of an eye."

From the ending dialogue: "Vegas might see a dip in revenue for a few months, half a year - but soon enough the tourists - and their money - will be pouring in."

I can't find the exact dialogue in-game, but when Mr. House gains control over Hoover Dam he hoards all the water and power for Vegas, and sells it to those outside for exorbitant prices.


6:40.

In addition, think of all the access to technology Mr. House has, and then realise that he shared any of it with those who needed it most. This is witnessed in-game by the quest "The Moon Comes Over the Tower". He chooses to keep that information for himself. His desire to hoard technology is probably also the reason he hates the Brotherhood. Destroying them is non-negotiable.

None of this shows an intention to do good with the power he has gained. Instead, an intention to keep it for himself. House is a businessman. Any promises of a future are merely that; promises. Nothing concrete.



4. How do I define House's megalomania in the context of New Vegas: He thinks he can colonize space, yet he's the ruler of an overgrown post-apocalyptic gambling den. That's megalomania for you. Delusions of grandeur. The way he speaks about virtually every other person and faction like they are below him. Wanting to control people may be a part of it, but that doesn't mean he wants to control everything for no reason. Maybe Goodsprings and Primm are irrelevant to him, or maybe he simply doesn't need to put securitrons there to have them serve his purpose.

On the topic of Primm/Goodsprings: If one chooses the NCR to protect Primm in the House-ending, it's clear that House can easily capture it because the NCR abandons it. There's no telling how efficiently Primm's defenses are ran under Meyers or the robot, nor is there any way to tell how much capacity House can spare to capture it if they resisted. For example, Meyers states "Me and the boys will take good care of Primm," implying there's some form of militia in place. In short, you're jumping to conclusions here.

However, your response raises a new, interesting question. House wreaks vengeance upon the people of Primm, simply for accepting the NCR to help them. Did House give them alternatives? Was the NCR really such a bad choice given the other options were an ex-convict and a robot? Does that strike you as a reasonable and benevolent ruler who has the interests of his underlings high on his priority list? It strikes me as a petty tyrant who makes the weak suffer his wrath just because he can. Wasn't there also something about House not being interested in revenge? This proves the contrary.



5. There's no need to be condescending. If you want to discuss, we can discuss. If you're going to respond with things like "that's just bull****", I can't be bothered to spend time writing a response.

Anyhow, Caesar's Legion isn't the subject of this discussion and we've side-tracked enough. If you insist on discussing this, I would discuss it with you in a new thread or in a private conversation.

5a. Alright, the score is as follows;
1/3 of the Strip supports House. The Chairmen. -> But the leader actively tries to overthrow him.
1/3 of the Strip is indifferent to House. The White Glove Society. -> But they secretly scheme their return to cannibalism, which would be incompatible with House's rule.
1/3 of the Strip tries to overthrow House. The Omertas.
The rest of New Vegas, as the previously-quoted sources have indicated, do not like House.
Even if we, for the sake of argument, leave the rest of Vegas out of the discussion, that still leaves us with House not having public support. At most one could argue 1/3 against 1/3, with the other 1/3 being indifferent.



6. Okay, msinterpretations aside, if we take the scenario that House does not want to rule beyond Vegas, we should agree upon the fact that ambitions like space travel are outside of the realm of possibilities. Such a thing would be impossible out of a single post-apocalyptic settlement. In that case, we can already scrap House from being "humanity's best hope", since most of humanity will never have anything to do with him. If space travel is off the table, I'll stop calling him a megalomaniac.



7. As for the argument that when industry thrives, mankind thrives; This is only true in a situation where a government is willing to protect it's citizens from the greed of the industrialists. In the case of House, he is the industrialist, and I highly doubt that he would ever take the plight of the poor to heart. In fact, everything in-game indicates that he wouldn't. Vegas in the hands of a businessman is one thing, but if House were to go industrial it would bring suffering of a whole new level. We can look to history to see just how miserable existence can get when industrialists are in charge.

 

[Black Angel]

1. Those are all very good reasons why people would dislike Mr. House, but that doesn't change the fact that they dislike Mr. House, which is exactly my point.
The indifference of towns like Primm, Goodsprings and Novac doesn't change much. (I get back to Primm/Goodsprings endings at point 4.)

1a. That's not making a point. Write down a sentence with a premise.

1. Your point is that everybody hates Mr. House and doesn't expresses desire to be ruled by him, and then you presented in-game evidences from people like Mick, the Garrets, Julie Farkas, Rotface, and various generic NPCs around Freeside and Outer Vegas. I've already said all that's needed to be said about them, and I will not repeat it again. And no, indifference changes ALOT, because indifference means not only do they doesn't expresses willingness to be ruled by House, they ALSO doesn't expresses their unwillingness to be ruled by House.

1a. You're saying that everybody hates Mr. House and doesn't expresses desire to be ruled by him; that's not really the case because, like I said, they also doesn't express if they're unwilling to be ruled by him.

2 & 3. I consider all of New Vegas a responsibility of Mr. House, except those parts ruled by the NCR. Firstly, because he created most of the situation as we see it when F:NV starts. Secondly, because he has the power to change this situation but refuses to do so on numerous occasions. I don't consider the situations of, for example, Novac, Primm, etc. as a direct responsibility of his, however one cannot deny that he influences these settlements because people from these settlements visit Vegas and lose their money (possibly more) there.

Spoiler

Look, how many Securitrons does House has at the start of New Vegas, and how efficient are they at enforcing laws in a scale of a whole city like New Vegas? House's hands are full at handling the Strip, otherwise you wouldn't see the Kings acting like a form of authority in Freeside nor the NCR attempting to sway the locals to support them through their relief effort. Especially since House already made an agreement with the NCR as evidenced here: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/New_Vegas_Treaty, House can only make the NCR recognizes the Strip's independence at the time. Anymore than that, and the NCR just won't agree to sign the treaty.

And it's false to say he has the power to change such situation at the time; again, you're completely ignoring the fact that House severely needs the Platinum Chip to become completely independent of NCR's military force to enforce the law in not only New Vegas, but also the Mojave. And even if you think he should still try and change the situation, do you think the NCR would just sit around with their thumbs up their asses? Obviously they won't, and instead they will try to sabotage House's attempt at expanding the Strip's infrastructure. Oh, and not to mention the Legion aren't completely out of the picture, too, and they've been infiltrating nearly every nooks and cranny of NCR's presence on the Mojave and also the city of New Vegas itself.

And once again, do you have any evidence where the folks at Novac, Primm, and even bloody Goodsprings ever complained how the Strip drained their money? Because in-game evidence (that I've also shared) suggest only NCR's citizens are losing their money to the Strip.

Also, to your answer about how all of New Vegas counts as his underlings, I'm just gonna repeat my previous point, which is

By the start of New Vegas, his underlings consisted of the Three Families, and if you think their well-being aren't satisfied from working under Mr. House, then you must be blind. Meanwhile, the people you see in Freeside and Outer Vegas were either the other groups of tribal who decided not to join Mr. House (like the Great Khans), or were just bystanders when House came out of Lucky 38 to begin his recruitment of officers to run the Strip.

And you need to also remember the argument you've been repeating before; that House is a businessman. His work ethics as a businessman is to sign contracts, and if you haven't know already, working with House is indeed like an employer-employee relationship. This is confirmed by the fact that House signed contracts with the Chairmen, the Omertas, and the White Glove Society. And if that's not enough for you, do remember many of his dialogue lines with the Courier is him repeating how it's the Courier's job to deliver the Platinum Chip to him as written in the contracts (that you got at the very start of the game, too), and House offering the Courier more jobs concerning the Platinum Chip and the political moves he's going to make is just basically House offering the Courier a contract to sign an agreement with.

Basically, if you don't sign a contract with Mr. House, then you are not his underlings (or rather, not his employee).

3a. Ending slides: "Mr. House's Securitron army took control of Hoover Dam and the Strip, pushing both the Legion and the exhausted NCR out of New Vegas. Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, a despotic vision of pre-War glory. The streets were orderly, efficient, cold. New Vegas continued to be the sole place in the wasteland where fortunes were won and lost in the blink of an eye."

From the ending dialogue: "Vegas might see a dip in revenue for a few months, half a year - but soon enough the tourists - and their money - will be pouring in."

Spoiler

None of those words in the ending slide is suggesting that House is going to "hoard everything for himself or use it to extort the population, instead of using it to fight the poverty and suffering that surrounds Vegas." Instead, it suggest that House is going to rule the city of New Vegas - his despotic way - BUT it resembles the vision of pre-War glory. I'm not sure how bad poverty actually is in the real-life version of Las Vegas, though, so I can't say how glorious it would be when translated to a version of House's New Vegas, and even then the city continuing to be a place where fortunes are won and lost in the blink of an eye doesn't suggest he won't fight the poverty and suffering around New Vegas. Remember, New Vegas's target audiences, its main and major customers ARE NCR's citizens, no matter how badly you want to deny it and twist and turn it into the "people of the Mojave". Like that piece of dialogue you quoted, with the conflict resolved at the end of Second Battle of Hoover Dam, lots of tourists from the NCR will start to pour into New Vegas, and the Mojave, in an even greater number than ever before. Do you think with only the Strip, with its three casinos ran by the Three Families, will be enough to welcome tourists from such a gigantic nation like the NCR? Obviously not, hence why I think, even if House is inclined to leave the Kings alone, I'd assume House would want to expand the Strip's infrastructure into Freeside, and Outer Vegas, letting the Kings and basically the locals to work for him as law enforcers in this expanded area of the Strip. So, contrary to what you think, that House is just going to hoard all the money for himself, I think he's actually going to start expanding his workforce so it isn't just the Three Families, but also the locals once he's going to expand the Strip's infrastructure.

Also, maybe we should just quote the whole dialogue, instead of quoting part of it out of context. Once again, it's in a video I've shared, so here it is
:

You know, I've had thousands of employees in my time. Few met my expectations, fewer still surpassed them.
Your performance has been nothing short of spectacular. If I have need for a "specialist" of your stripe again, I'll know just where to turn.
Back to Vegas, shall we? I really should do something about that monorail - with all the new resources at hand... I can make sure it not only runs, but runs on time. Always bothered me, the imprecision.
No need to worry about the General, by the way. He'll be held responsible, publicly disgraced... 36.5% probability of suicide, by my estimate...
Kimball won't be able to save him - he'll too busy getting thrown out of office. But less than a 3% chance of suicide, mind you.
Vegas might see a dip in revenue for a few months, half a year - but soon enough the tourists - and their money - will be pouring in.
Vegas will be a shining jewel in the middle of the desert, an oasis of light, a beacon to show mankind the way to the stars.
This is just the start, you see. This is where it all begins.

TL;DR, he praised you (the Courier) for your performance. And then, he basically proclaimed his very first act of office is to get the monorail (probably the one connecting Camp McCarran with the Strip) to run optimally. He then talked about his prediction regarding Kimball and Oliver (his scapegoat for NCR's failure to annex the Mojave). Then he talked about how Vegas is gonna lose some income, but after that it's all good and even better. And finally, he once again brought up his plans to explore the stars.

See, I won't deny the fact that House is a businessman. But the argument that he's just going to hoard all those money really baffles me. What is he going to buy with all those caps, huh? I mean, he experienced one of the most luxurious, richest life years before the Great War, so I doubt anything in the post-(post-post-)apocalyptic world can ever tickle his greed. He's also already spent exactly 812,545 caps in a year prior to the start of the game - imagine just how much more he spent 2, 3, 4 years before that! And now that he got what he wanted from the chip AND the conflict resolved, once again, I'm inclined to believe that he WILL be able achieve his long-term goals, at the very least even to reignite the hi-tech sectors in 20 years time would need a lot of money, he gotta pay all the workers who's going to be involved in such project and he's gotta pay for the much needed materials, too.

I can't find the exact dialogue in-game, but when Mr. House gains control over Hoover Dam he hoards all the water and power for Vegas, and sells it to those outside for exorbitant prices.

There are no dialogues, and the only relevant piece of evidence that's related to what you're talking about is the Order of Withdrawal that the Courier presented to General Oliver at the end of the game http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_Withdrawal

Spoiler

Spoiler

TO GENERAL OLIVER (or highest-ranking survivor)

TO THE NCR PRESIDENT

TO THE NCR COUNCIL

FROM ROBERT EDWIN HOUSE

As Chief Executive of the Free Economic Zone of New Vegas, I hereby demand the IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWAL of all NCR military personnel from New Vegas and its surrounding territories.

a) Yes, "all military personnel" includes NCR Rangers.

b) "New Vegas and its surrounding territories" includes (but is not limited to) Hoover Dam, McCarran International Airport, HELIOS One, and the El Dorado substation.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE that my vast army of heavily-armed Securitrons has been rather inflexibly programmed to respond to acts of aggression with overwhelming force.

a) For examples of "heavily-armed" and "overwhelming force," I will refer you to the pitiless campaign of extermination my Securitrons will have visited upon Caesar's Legion by the time you are reading this document.

b) Any NCR military personnel who do not withdraw from New Vegas and its territories will be seen as committing an "act of aggression."

NCR civilians are NOT subject to this order of withdrawal! They may visit New Vegas freely, enjoying all that the Vegas Strip has to offer!

So long as NCR military personnel comply with this order to withdraw, electricity and water will continue to flow from Hoover Dam to the NCR.

a) Electricity: 5 caps per kilowatt hour.

b) Water: 5 caps per gallon

The NCR Council's Office of Budget will receive invoices bi-weekly. Prices are subject to change without notice.

Cordially,

Robert Edwin House
Chief Executive
Free Economic Zone of New Vegas

So, contrary to what you said about this, House doesn't actually hoard the electricity and water to Vegas, because he's including - but not limited to - Hoover Dam, McCarran, HELIOS One, and El Dorado in the Free Economic Zone of New Vegas. Basically the entire Mojave Wasteland has been claimed as independent from NCR's military and government interference, and the 'outside' you're referring to is actually the NCR.

You also haven't addressed my point about why should House distribute the water around the wasteland when the water are readily available in the Colorado River and Lake Mead, not to mention Goodsprings also have their own source of clean water, and it's also not fucking Fallout 3 where water is problem, and also the way bottlecaps works in Fallout universe means water is still a commodity. And you also haven't defined exorbitant, unless...

6:40.

Oh. This video again. Well, I'm just going to quote @Unorthodox Outlander's brutal rebuttal to it, which is

Spoiler

Right, my thoughts on Oxhorn's points.

1. Taking out the local BOS is, in my opinion, a public service. There's no place for a bunch of self righteous bunker-dwellers--who are a shrinking minority at best--to decide what everybody else gets to have technology-wise. You don't even have to butcher them either--I usually just stick to setting off the self-destruct, imagining that anybody with a shred of competence will get the hell out while I quietly leave with a stealth-boy equipped.

2. His claim that the Kings are always killed by Mr. House no matter which route you take is either ignorant or an outright lie, as this depends on your decision to either bridge relations between the Kings and the NCR or escalate the existing tensions (in which they will drive the NCR out of Freeside and even be rewarded by House afterwards).

3. While the seizure of Vault 31 does have a rather... unpleasant air about it, there isn't anything that necessarily points to foul play. Mr. House won the bet, and the vault ownership was thus fairly-won collateral. As for shifting people out of the vault... It's not exactly pleasant, but I wouldn't exactly call it a terrible crime. It's not like House simply barged in and killed off the residents or threw them out without even bothering with any sort of negotiation. It's certainly a lot better than what happened to nearby Vault 3, at least.

4. Okay, a bunch of drivel about how other people were using Vegas territory while House was recovering from system failures. Said people were tribals--and given their backgrounds, hardly the gentle and just sort. The fact that said tribals were then whipped into shape and given ownership of the premier casinos of the Strip, with quite a bit of prestige and fortune along with it... More than a fair trade, I reckon. While the Kings are also one of the tribal groups that were impacted, they seem to be doing well enough for themselves in Freeside--hell, they wouldn't even have a city if it weren't for House's efforts before the Great War!

5. Regarding the "Invasion" of Freeside, House essentially ruled Vegas. The only real competitors were the NCR and the Legion--who both ALSO annexed Vegas in their respective endings, including Freeside. So... what the hell is he getting at? Also, good grief. The man plays it up like the securitrons are just massacring people on a whim. Greater injustice? Nonsense...

6. So... Fussing about House taking over Hoover Dam? The argument that he didn't build it or doesn't own if falls flat when it's not exactly "owned" in the most proper way by the NCR. Furthermore, taking the Dam gives him a guarantee against annexation. It is a massive bargaining chip meant to keep a retaliatory army from simply besieging Vegas once the Legion is driven off. As for charging for selling power and water?

Trade. Do you even know what it is, Oxhorn? You know about how for thousands of years nations haven't just shipped off their own resources to their neighbors for free, but in return for something else of value? The little tidbit on the whole conversion rate is also a bunch of guesswork with little actually backing it up. Emotional appeal fails in the face of logic, NEXT.

7. While I'm not exactly onboard with the whole autocrat bit, it's not exactly enough to condemn house when there isn't much else in the way of governance aside from local leaders and the notably corrupt/overextended NCR. More drivel about how "power corrupts."

8. The "human angle" of the Brotherhood of Steel doesn't matter. The current leader isn't going to live forever, and the massacre of the Follower's outpost by the rail-lines means that there is certainly a sub-faction of radicals that are plenty capable of influencing future decisions. Furthermore, their obsession with controlling technology is an overall detriment to the advancement of the Mojave. Again, it's not exactly a massacre if you just set off the self-destruct. Those that choose to stay..? They heard the warning well enough that their own deaths will be a byproduct of stubbornness or idiocy.

9. The BOS aren't civilians. The entire group is an isolated military "order", with some capable of doing more damage than others and a sizeable armory.


In short, I see a lot of "moral" and emotional reasoning, but even that falls flat when there isn't as much of a factual or logical nature to back it up.

I put his relevant counter-argument to your direction to aforementioned 6:40 in bold. Also, a comment nicely countered that point about the water charging being 'exorbitant', by pointing out that 5 caps per gallon of water is more than fair considering the default caps value for a bottle of purified water per New Vegas is bloody 20 caps (!) http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Purified_water_(Fallout:_New_Vegas).

So, what shall it be? Unless you're also gonna argue that NCR counts as a third world country, 5 caps per gallon of water for NCR is basically a steal.

In addition, think of all the access to technology Mr. House has, and then realise that he shared any of it with those who needed it most. This is witnessed in-game by the quest "The Moon Comes Over the Tower". He chooses to keep that information for himself. His desire to hoard technology is probably also the reason he hates the Brotherhood. Destroying them is non-negotiable.

Spoiler

The only medical information that Emily Ortal is going to get from Mr. House is the one that's going to put people into a cryostasis http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hibernation_chamber. While House hoped, with the help of the Courier, to use the same piece of technology for some important individuals in the future, I doubt the Followers of the Apocalypse have any proper use for such technology, let alone the resources to manufacture it. Remember, the history of cryogenics in this series hasn't been kind to those subjected into the stasis (see: Sierra Army Depot), and why are the Followers looking to get a data on House's medical information when there's bloody Vault City who have literally the most advanced medical techs in all of NCR!
As for the Mojave Chapter of the BoS, my response would be more or less the same with Unorthodox Outlander's, and I'm also gonna put House's quote regarding them:

They're a terrorist group, basically. Militant, quasi-religious fanatics obsessed with hoarding Pre-War technology. Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs. No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo.

4. How do I define House's megalomania in the context of New Vegas: He thinks he can colonize space, yet he's the ruler of an overgrown post-apocalyptic gambling den. That's megalomania for you. Delusions of grandeur. The way he speaks about virtually every other person and faction like they are below him. Wanting to control people may be a part of it, but that doesn't mean he wants to control everything for no reason.

Spoiler

I don't see it. Most of the time, he talked about every other person and factions as what they really are. For example, despite of the Omertas being a bunch of backstabber they are and are plotting against him, Mr. House only really talked about them and described their previous way of life in neutral tone. He even said how the Omertas reminded him of certain criminal element Vegas used to attract. He described the Chairmen used to be called the "Mojave Boot Rider" as unfortunate, and he even respect his contract with the White Glove Society to not reveal their real names (and even praised them by saying they've put up one hell of a resort hotel and even wanted to eat there based on what he heard), despite the fact that he and the Courier are having private conversation in the Lucky 38! The only times he would be speaking with disdain about someone is when he came to know bad things they're doing, like with Benny, the Omertas, when the Courier brought up that some among the White Glove Society wanted to revert back to cannibalism, and of course the BoS, and that's it! Does that sounds megalomaniac to you? Because it sounds like he's just as human as you and me there.

Maybe Goodsprings and Primm are irrelevant to him, or maybe he simply doesn't need to put securitrons there to have them serve his purpose.
On the topic of Primm/Goodsprings: If one chooses the NCR to protect Primm in the House-ending, it's clear that House can easily capture it because the NCR abandons it. There's no telling how efficiently Primm's defenses are ran under Meyers or the robot, nor is there any way to tell how much capacity House can spare to capture it if they resisted. For example, Meyers states "Me and the boys will take good care of Primm," implying there's some form of militia in place. In short, you're jumping to conclusions here.

Spoiler

That's some maybes you put on your first sentence here. Goodsprings and Primm are as relevant to him as any other places that dots the route from Mojave Outpost to New Vegas, hence why he even bothered to send at least one Securitron to Goodsprings, and why he actually take full control of Primm when they willingly get annexed by the NCR.
I've forgotten where I heard it, probably from one of the generic NPCs on the Strip, but there are comments saying one of Mark II Securitron is worth more than a platoon of NCR soldiers, so.... if you think Meyers and his boys can actually hold off a full-fledged force of Mark II Securitrons hell-bent on taking Primm no matter what it takes, then.... I'm not sure what to say to that. Probably the only thing I'm gonna say to you is, "You're the one who's jumping to conclusions here." No, House doesn't 'capture' Primm when NCR abandons it, he takes it because he's seeing Primm's willingness to get annexed by NCR is a betrayal to the idea of an independent Mojave, and it's explicitly stated in the ending slide, for fuck sake.

However, your response raises a new, interesting question. House wreaks vengeance upon the people of Primm, simply for accepting the NCR to help them. Did House give them alternatives? Was the NCR really such a bad choice given the other options were an ex-convict and a robot? Does that strike you as a reasonable and benevolent ruler who has the interests of his underlings high on his priority list? It strikes me as a petty tyrant who makes the weak suffer his wrath just because he can. Wasn't there also something about House not being interested in revenge? This proves the contrary.

If Primm was willing to get annexed like that, there's no guarantee they won't accept another annexation again. You're also exaggerating here, House doesn't 'wreaks vengeance', he's merely asserting control upon the town as law enforcer, especially since with the NCR leaving it means the slot for the law in town is vacant. And yes, considering the heavy taxes they impose upon Primm (which can immediately be felt by the Courier when you try to buy something from Johnson Nash), how bad and corrupt their government is, AND how they are the one who even let the situation where the Powder Gangers invade the town in the first place, yes I think the NCR IS the worst choice here (unless you're pro-NCR, of course).

5. There's no need to be condescending. If you want to discuss, we can discuss. If you're going to respond with things like "that's just bull****", I can't be bothered to spend time writing a response.

I mean, you've already dismissed some of my arguments by saying how this doesn't matter, that doesn't change the fact of that, this isn't relevant to the subject being discussed (without even explaining why it isn't relevant) yadda yadda. Not to mention you've also completely ignored the many points I've made before, and here you are making an entirely new post, simply because you feel like you don't want to read wall of texts (in a fucking forum, for that matter). Of course I'm bound to be condescending after I feel like you've wasted so much of my time, especially when I come to read a piece of pure, unadulterated bullshit.

Anyhow, Caesar's Legion isn't the subject of this discussion and we've side-tracked enough. If you insist on discussing this, I would discuss it with you in a new thread or in a private conversation.

Of course Caesar's Legion isn't the subject of discussion. The subject is whether or not House is a fitting leader for the Mojave and humanity, and because you're against that idea, I'm bringing other faction leaders for comparison. It's as much relevant piece of argument as (if not actually more relevant than) you trying to say that House is somehow involved with the Great War. We can still discuss here, because you're saying that House doesn't have public support, and I'm saying that other leaders like Caesar doesn't really have (genuine) public support.

5a. Alright, the score is as follows;
1/3 of the Strip supports House. The Chairmen. -> But the leader actively tries to overthrow him.
1/3 of the Strip is indifferent to House. The White Glove Society. -> But they secretly scheme their return to cannibalism, which would be incompatible with House's rule.
1/3 of the Strip tries to overthrow House. The Omertas.
The rest of New Vegas, as the previously-quoted sources have indicated, do not like House.
Even if we, for the sake of argument, leave the rest of Vegas out of the discussion, that still leaves us with House not having public support. At most one could argue 1/3 against 1/3, with the other 1/3 being indifferent.

Spoiler

- And when Benny got exposed, many in the Tops actually expressed that they've never sees Benny as a rat, so the moment Benny interrupted the Chip's delivery, he and he alone is fucked.
- Like I said, the White Glove Society aren't participating in the politics outside of their circle at all. Reverting to cannibalism is indeed a direct violation to the contract they've signed with Mr. House, but even then not ALL of the White Glove Society wants to return to their old way. Aside from Mortimer, the WGS have another leader, which is Marjorie. Marjorie doesn't like being accused of cannibalism, she would show disgust upon the Courier who expressed that they may be a cannibal, and she (with half of the WGS who wants to stay clean) genuinely wants to stay clean, as evidenced by them showing disgust at the possibility of consuming human flesh once again, when the Courier exposed Mortimer during Beyond the Beef quest.
- And once again, the Omertas just wouldn't dare if they don't have the Legion backing them, so they're going to fall in line, one way or another.

And in the end, the Three Families still had something that the Legion doesn't have: freedom to choose to either work for Mr. House, or not.

6. Okay, msinterpretations aside, if we take the scenario that House does not want to rule beyond Vegas, we should agree upon the fact that ambitions like space travel are outside of the realm of possibilities. Such a thing would be impossible out of a single post-apocalyptic settlement. In that case, we can already scrap House from being "humanity's best hope", since most of humanity will never have anything to do with him. If space travel is off the table, I'll stop calling him a megalomaniac.

Spoiler

So basically, you are saying that if Mr. House doesn't directly assert control upon anywhere other than Vegas, he wouldn't be able to achieve space travel? Is that it? What kind of logic is that?
Dude, ever heard of trading? Have you forgotten that, aside from lots and lots of potential workforce in the Mojave alone, House still allowed NCR's civilians to visit the Mojave? With the conflict resolved, House just isn't going to run out of resources soon. It's not like he's outright banning the NCR from ever trading with him. And if you're still not convinced about the resources, since his first act of office is to improve the monorail, it's not hard to see that he's going to do something about the train tracks that trails across the Mojave soon, and it's not hard to assume those train tracks would, at one point, reach the Pitts, and the cargo would return with the products from its Steel Mill. Another example of a project where House is going to build a space rocket would be to sign a trading contract (you're the one who keep repeating the fact that House is a businessman, remember?) with folks at Novac since they have been salvaging stuff at REPCONN Test Site for who knows how long. He can assign workers like scientists and engineers from NCR, or even a native like Chris Haversam since he proved able to help the Bright Followers to launch the rocket and fly with it safely.
Does he really need to actually assert direct control on Novac to ensure the project is up and going? Not really. If you've forgotten my previous argument, or perhaps you actually ignored it, the way House ending works is something akin to a dual-dictatorship, where the Courier has almost always pretty much a say in everything House do (as evidenced by the ending slides, and the quests you do for him). House has been looking for a protege, he needed someone to perform *certain* tasks for him, and we can assume he also needed someone to act as his 'face' in public while he worked behind the scene. Basically, House - the brain, Courier - the brawn.
And just like that, House doesn't really need to assert direct control upon anywhere other than New Vegas (unless he have a *reason* to, like the Kings reconciling with the NCR and Primm willingly getting annexed by them), and instead have the Courier take care of signing the contracts, establishing relationships, and allocate resources where it's needed, while House give directives, enforcing laws and establish security, etc etc etc.

7. As for the argument that when industry thrives, mankind thrives; This is only true in a situation where a government is willing to protect it's citizens from the greed of the industrialists. In the case of House, he is the industrialist, and I highly doubt that he would ever take the plight of the poor to heart. In fact, everything in-game indicates that he wouldn't. Vegas in the hands of a businessman is one thing, but if House were to go industrial it would bring suffering of a whole new level. We can look to history to see just how miserable existence can get when industrialists are in charge.

Aw yiss. A new speculation without elaboration of any kind. Not to mention comparison to real life history, instead of comparison to the history within the context of the setting. Would you kindly try to describe a scenario of Mr. House going full industrialist that bring suffering of a whole new level within the context of the world of Fallout?

 

[Unorthodox Outlander]

Oh. This video again. Well, I'm just going to quote @Unorthodox Outlander's brutal rebuttal to it, which is

Uhhh, I think you stuck the wrong bit in there.

 

[Black Angel]

Uhhh, I think you stuck the wrong bit in there.

Huh? What wrong bit? Aren't you the one who posted your thoughts on that Oxhorn's video posted in page 21? I even put your point #6 in bold as a counter-argument to Apollyon's argument about House's charging for water and electricity being 'exorbitant'.

 

[Unorthodox Outlander]

Huh? What wrong bit? Aren't you the one who posted your thoughts on that Oxhorn's video posted in page 21? I even put your point #6 in bold as a counter-argument to Apollyon's argument about House's charging for water and electricity being 'exorbitant'.

It may just be me, but when I look in the spoiler, I see my 1st point regarding the BOS. Everything else is... kinda hidden. A limitation of the quotes within spoilers, or maybe just an accident?

 

[Black Angel]

It may just be me, but when I look in the spoiler, I see my 1st point regarding the BOS. Everything else is... kinda hidden. A limitation of the quotes within spoilers, or maybe just an accident?

Oh that can happen sometimes. Happened a lot to me, too, no matter if I was browsing on mobile or on PC. The solution would be to just refresh the page until you every quote have 'Click to Expand'.

 

[KingArthur]

Ok. So my thoughts are a bit jumbled at times, but I'll go down the list of factions and explain why I like and dislike each of them, respectively.

1. Independent/Yes Man: I enjoy the idea of Vegas being a free state, and I feel that with a good karma courier at the helm the independent ending offers the best chance to make a difference for those in the wastes, and outside of Vegas (Freeside, other small communities like Goodsprings, etc.). The securitrons could theoretically serve as a police force, and as a result could offer, well, security to those in Outer Vegas who normally wouldn't have it. On the downside, however, both the Legion and NCR are likely going to be pissed about being shafted, and that could lead to problems (with the Legion more so than the NCR; should Kimball die the unpopular Mojave campaign will likely be abandoned entirely, and there won't be much support for attacking the New Vegas overlord. Caesar or his successors, on the other hand, would likely be more than happy to launch a campaign of terror along the lines of the current situation in the Mojave).

2. NCR: I think that while the Republic's ideals are sound, corruption and inefficiency undermine what they're trying to do. As Ulysses says, "The Bear is diseased... barely clings to life..."; while they have the best capacity for managing trade routes, history has shown that they can't protect those caravans efficiently enough to garner the kind of support that they have. I like to think that the citizens of the NCR are following its ideals, not its leadership. If we go by the leadership in the Mojave alone, Hanlon and Oliver go in different directions, dividing the NCR and going nowhere ("A two-headed bear, pulling in different directions...").

3. House: I like the idea of House (gods I'm saying that a lot), and yes he dug the courier out of their grave, and yes his (far fetched) plan offers a brighter future for mankind; the only problem is his short sightedness. What I mean by that is that House only cares about Vegas. Outside of that, you're on your own buddy. And I personally prefer a solution for the entire Mojave over just the chosen few. Because you know that if he does succeed in colonizing the moon, the opportunity is only going to be there for a chosen few.

4. Caesar's Legion: First off, I know the Legion gets a bad rap for its use of slavery and crucifixion; but look at the Enclave. Extreme times call for extreme measures. And I'm not at all saying that slavery is right or that brutal ancient methods of torturous death are the way to go; but maybe the wasteland needs that kick in the balls. Look at places under NCR rule: the fiends run wild right outside their doorstep, and caravans face raider problems daily. In Legion territory, raiding does nothing more than earn you a place on the neo-Appian Way. Beyond that, I recognize that Caesar can act childish and vengeful; and I honestly have no excuse for that. However, speaking to Caesar reveals his plans for the wasteland, and I personally find them pretty convincing. Characters like Marcus say the Legion is following Caesar, not his ideals, but what Caesar plans to do puts his ideals at the forefront: he wishes to recreate Rome in its glory, with citizens living free lives under his rule while he recreates ancient institutions and standard-of-living. He's still a Follower at heart, and wants to make life better for those under his rule. There's also the argument that after Caesar the Legion will collapse; but he's a smart enough man that he'll appoint a viable Octavian (i.e. not that prick Lanius). As for problems should the Legion win the Battle of Hoover Dam, they don't have much support due to their admittedly barbaric tactics and should they take over rebellions and uprisings are almost assured. Whether or not they'd be quashed quickly or drag on like the Spartacus War I've no clue.

 

[Black Angel]

snip

1. Actually, Kimball dying would actually resulted in him being seen as a martyr of the campaign. It might put a pressure on the NCR's military for a time being, but if they managed to win at the Second Battle, only to be kicked out by the Courier, they would actually begin taking steps on exacting vengeance upon the Courier and Independent Vegas. What they'll do should this scenario occurs is to completely boycott the Mojave, resulting in the region dying because of no trades flowing in and out. The Mojave itself might be self-sufficient thanks to all the clean water and good soil, but with no money flowing into the Strip itself? I think it's not hard to imagine the Three Families turning upon one another, or that all three of them might actually turn upon the Courier, which is the best pretext for NCR to move in and annex the region completely.
Meanwhile, I don't see how the Legion would be more eager than the NCR to start taking upon Independent Vegas in the long run. Maybe to test the strength of a newfound nation, but other than that, based on how the Courier dealt with Lanius, I don't see the Legion coming back for a long time. Besides, words would definitely spread quickly, so if the Legion DID begin launching campaign of terror upon the Mojave, that would have been yet another pretext for the NCR to come barking upon Mojave's doors and convince them to join the NCR instead of getting enslaved by the Legion.

2. Indeed, I agree with all of what you said about the NCR here.

3. How does he cared only for Vegas? He definitely cared for everyone else. If not, then why should he even bother of annexing Freeside from the Kings and Primm should they be reconciled with the NCR? Why should he bother trying to re-ignite hi-tech sectors, putting people in orbit, and searching for other planets to populate if he only cared for Vegas? Also, why do you think colonizing the moon means he's only selecting chosen few? Do you mean it that he's just going to abandon earth completely? Also, why does chosing selected few to colonize moon/put in orbit/colonizing other planets is a bad thing? Wouldn't you agree that not everyone has what it takes to be assigned task in colonizing moon/orbit/other planets? Besides, if those moon/orbital/planetary colony managed to produce some surplus, they can ship it back to Earth.

4. I think it's not right trying to justify Legion's method by comparing to the Enclave. That will be extremely horrible, since the Enclave is a definitive comic-book villain that has no redemption whatsoever, except maybe a select few individuals like the Remnants, those guys who happen to help The Chosen One fighting Horrigan, and that scientist guy you can convince to wipe out the Oil Rig. As for Fiends running wild in front of NCR's base of operation, you need to remember that the whole region is a war zone, and they're in a middle of indefinite state of stalemate with the Legion. Taking upon the Fiends would need more than a platoon of their (mostly incompetent) soldiers, not to mention the Fiends at the time have not one, not two, but four strong leaders, so if the NCR would actually need to wipe out the Fiends, they might leave themselves vulnerable for a surprise Legion attack (especially considering Camp McCarran has a Legion spy on it). Other than that, I think I can agree with the rest of what you said about the Legion.

 

[KingArthur]

I agree with your points; I actually didn't consider that surplus could be sent back to Earth. But this is also taking for granted that the technology exists. For every 100 incompetent NCR soldiers there's one reliable courier who could be trusted to help colonize other planets. In my opinion the Mojave isn't a lost cause; and House stargazing while the world burns around him makes him as guilty as the raiders in my eyes (though I do recognize how harsh a judgement that may seem).

As for the Enclave, I didn't mean that the Enclave was good, per se. They are definitely evil, but are the only Post-War faction, in my opinion, with the tech and training to tame the Hobbesian wasteland. I should have specified, sorry. I wasn't trying to defend the Enclave, simply give a perspective for what I meant by the Legion's atrocities being Caesar's own attempt to tame the savage world in which he lives.

 

[The Man From Nowhere]

Just thought I'd add - it is rather interesting that House himself is categorized as an abomination along with the Tunnelers, Deathclaws, Dead Money Ghost People, Spore Plants and Centaurs.....

 

[Lone Cat]

Did Robert House ever aware of Big Empty and how they encroaches his sphere of influence around Vegas? did he ever mentions their existence or aware that BMT scientists did similar things to him... life elongations through the use of cybernetics.

even though none in Big Empty ever appreciates House, either out of a plane rivalty of being science and tech organizations. or how arrogance/narcisstic Robert House is.

In the end, no matter what Courier do with Mr. House (continue serving him or betray him in favor of different political ideology/factions (NCR, Legion or Benny/Yes Man), Courier did NOT spend his days in Vegas. rather he/she ruled over the Big Empty. (and his / her Karma did change or maintain the BigMT previous policy)... if Courier chose a new brain over a previous one, neither will outlive natural lifetime like what Mr. House and The Think Tank (and many others in Fallout 4) did, nor will prolong their life beyond what the two normally should live. (Courier will never be Robert House II)

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

Just thought I'd add - it is rather interesting that House himself is categorized as an abomination along with the Tunnelers, Deathclaws, Dead Money Ghost People, Spore Plants and Centaurs.....

I assumed it was some kind of "well, there's no other category he fits into neatly, so toss him into the catch-all category" thing. That's actually the thing about the Abomination category, is that there is little commonality between its elements. Best I can come up with for Abominations is that most of them seem to be the result of manmade scientific exploits gone haywire?

 

[tgawt]

reminder that house gets his shriveled rocks off to robot girls based off people who have been dead for over 200 years

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

reminder that house gets his shriveled rocks off to robot girls based off people who have been dead for over 200 years

I don't generally question people's fetishes unless they're really harmful