Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity

Well that's just rude as hell. It's not that hard to observe themes and tropes on fallout. That's what makes it interesting. Is it that hard to imagine that fallout would make a parralel to Greek myths of Icarus and Daedalus? Is having skepticism towards a man who you mostly ever hear about from his own mouth and things built by him just me being crazy? That shit is uncalled for. This is a discussion. You don't need to use ad hominem. Sorry if I follow my instincts.

 

Oh don't cry that 'ad hominem' nonsense. And if you think I'm being rude then maybe NMA is not the place for you. I'm being benevolent by comparison to what you can experiemce here sometimes.

 

1. Let's all just calm down
2. I agree that the old world (at least in Fallout) is a tale of disaster. But then again, the most successful people in the wasteland (the NCR's government, Caesar, House) are simply regurgitating the ideas of the past; but this inevitably leads to war. Again. Imo it's not a choice of "who furthers humanity?" at this point (humanity is too far gone), it's "who do you believe can hold onto order for the time being?".

 

"Who do you believe can hold onto order for the time being?"
House with a few thousand super-duper killbots has the ability to do so. House with a few thousand super-duper killbots and a talented apprentice ABSOLUTELY has the ability to do so.

 

Won’t argue with that. But House’s megalomania combined with no real plan of succession I just can’t bring myself to support him. I can definitely see why people DO, don’t get me wrong, but I personally would rather have the Courier at the helm in the Independent ending if we’re arguing for killbots, if only because the way I play my courier would at least have a fucking successor.

 

The Courier's apprenticeship seems to imply that House is at least starting to become open to the idea of a successor. I wanted to like the Independent ending but the ending slides left a sour taste in my mouth frankly. It seems like the Courier pretty much left New Vegas to itself rather than actually step up and lead and get something done with all those resources. I dunno, it feels terribly unambitious. Also, the Followers slide is pretty bad IMO.

 

Anyone as idealistic as the Followers is gonna suffer in the Fallout world.

As for the rest've the slides sucking, yeah I will actually concede that perhaps it's only my own headcanon that makes the Independent ending do-able. If we go only by the slides, even with good Karma the Courier seems to only run Vegas, and even then simply as its overseer of sorts. I like to think that the reason Obsidian did that was to allow the player to make up their own mind about how their Courier would "run" the wasteland, but it is all admittedly pretty bleak.

 

It probably goes back to them having the Independent Vegas ending as a "default" ending that you could get even if you managed to burn every other bridge, so to speak. I would like to see the Courier's karma, choices, reputation etc all matter a bit more (though the karma system inherited from FO3 is pretty dumb) in the Independent ending but it ends up feeling like the "consolation prize" ending to me.

 

the issue w/ house is that he underestimates the power of the misc. raiders n shit and while there not the strongest threat in the wasteland for the downtime b4 caesar or NCR strike for hoover damn again theyll b annoying as fuck (even though the player can handle the fiends and great khans). also house leaves a lot of problems unresolved. like, NCR isnt dead. they can still come back and probably will. realistically the eventual death of Caesar, possible death of the legate and defeat at hoover dam would probably cripple the legion into nothing but the NCR is still fully capable w/out hoover dam

 

I like to think some of the stuff in the Independence ending slides is probably just the initial events that happened during the Courier's early years ruling over Vegas before he/she gets things settled.

Rome wasn't built in a day you know. : P

Granted, I do like how preventing anyone from taking over Vegas has consequences just like anything else. Makes it so that no ending truly is the "best one".

 

Neither does saying, "They return to Novac with their tails between their legs". In fact, that statement is a much more bullshit than the conclusion I made based on the ending slides and the facts present in-game. Since I've already done a bit of summary on the ending slides, why don't you do it yourself? Try interpreting the 2 ending slides I shared before with honesty.

Where was it said that the Far Beyond was within walking distance? Because the Bright Followers managed to return to Novac in time to evacuate the townsfolk upon the commencing of the Second Battle? Please remember that the scale of New Vegas's worldspace is toned down compared to real-life Mojave landscape. We can assume that the Legion took their time to attack Novac, since the town doesn't have that much significance. We can confirm this through going by the ending slide where the Bright Followers returned to help the town rebuild, because considering the towns defense they somehow managed to repel the Legion even though it left the town ruined and many of the folks died during its defense. Cross-reference this assumption and connect it to the ending slide where the rocket's navigation were improved, we can assume the Bright Followers settled in the Far Beyond much faster than they would've been without the navigation improvement, and so they managed to get to Novac before the Legion could begin their invasion of the town.

You're reading far too much into it, and use that to conclude that they failed or whatever. If anything, it could be something akin to the Glow, but somewhere else. Should we also not stop there and question where the fuck Sierra Madre was actually located, how the fuck Dog managed to reach our unconscious body and bring it from the hidden BoS bunker to there? Or even fucking Big MT, where is it located, really? And why do we need to use the Transportalponder when those Cazadors and Nightstalkers managed to reach the Mojave on foot just fine? Could it all be in the Courier's head because, you know, he was shot in the head twice, so there's no fucking way for the Courier to ever reach either Sierra Madre or Big MT?

Actually, ALL of them CAN hold onto order for the time being. That is, however, relative to this 'time being'. The NCR, the Legion, and House all managed to put together a fully-functioning society that was rebuilt from the ashes of the Old World. If that's not the case, then how the hell the NCR and the Legion both managed to expand into the post-nuclear American superpower they are, and House managed to put together a huge establishment in form of the Strip with the help of the Three Families, as we see in New Vegas?

Hence why the question shifted to 'Who can further humanity, and why should we give them Hoover Dam?'.

I really don't understand from where does the impression of House being a megalomaniac came from. If we play his route, and go all out in exhausting his dialogue options, he's just as human as all of us. I will understand it if you only interacted with him on surface level, then abandon him before you exhaust his dialogue options and then see the narcissistic side of him as evidenced by his obituary, but man...

Even before the Courier, House is already looking to appoint a successor, or in his words, a 'protege'. Remember Benny? He was supposed to fill in the shoes that's now worn by the Courier. Even House admitted that he should've groomed Benny much sooner so he didn't fuck around behind his back and steal the Platinum Chip just as it draws nearer to Vegas.

This. Headcanons and preference aside, I really, REALLY love what Obsidian did with the shandification of New Vegas. Pretty much all of the ending slides can be canon, and a sequel to follow up will be just as exciting, if not more.

Too bad it's confirmed we won't have anymore proper sequel to Fallout 1-2-NV, and that's not just because Todd Howard confirmed it, but also because present-day Obsidian will have no way to pull it off at all.

 

True but you also have to take into account the fact that NCR is also fighting another war back in California against the BoS. It'll take them years, maybe more than a decade, to get their resources high enough again to go back to Vegas for a war with Mr. House/The Courier and even then, after all the nightmare stories from the Mojave that survivors would have spread, I just don't see the public supporting it.

It's like the Mojave is Vietnam and the NCR is the USA. They got their asses kicked by what the public considers a backwards place and people. Lots of NCR citizens died, soldiers and resources depleted fighting a war they ended up losing and now they're forced to pay this unknown force headquartered there for electrical power. That's a hell of a morale decreasing conflict that nobody would be insane enough to try any time soon.

Add to that saving Kimball's useless ass for the citizens to blame him instead of you or Mr. House and also sparing Oliver so he can also share the blame.

There is also the cut scene after the El Dorado Substation quest which reveals that the Lucky 38's reactor is powerful enough to power Vegas. This is huge. Coyote Wild did a video showcasing the deleted scene and my comment there just happens to be the highest rated one. Here's what I wrote; "Now I see why they cut it, it's pretty lackluster. But that bit of information from Yes Man is invaluable. So the Lucky 38's reactor that House had to turn off or it would melt down is powerful enough to power all of Vegas? That changes everything! This is dialog that is NOT in the vanilla game. This makes the Independent/House ending that much more powerful because the NCR relies on the Hoover Dam to power all of the west so they would never go to war with House/The Courier or else they would lose that power. House/The Courier only has to turn off the dam and he can beat the NCR without firing a shot and without the Mojave suffering for it. Genius! The NCR is effectively made into a permanent client nation forced to obey whatever laws House/The Courier throws at them. That's wild."

With all of these variables in effect, there is no way I can see the NCR motivated enough to go to war with the Mojave. My personal headcanon of my Courier/Lone Wanderer absorbing the NCR into a supernation and then going on to conquer the rest of the world isn't that unrealistic. Also, the Courier is immortal after Old World Blues. Just saying, not unrealistic for him to take over the world at all.

Not to mention the tech from the Sierra Madre and Big M.T. which alone can make anyone into a technological powerhouse to rival Mr. House.

I just don't get them returning after all their talk about how great it is and how bad the Wasteland can be. They seemed like brainwashed dolts before but now they come back to the very place they started because reasons?

Again - why return at all? There is no reason for them to do so. Never are we given an indication as to why they would but here they are all of a sudden. Maybe the improved navigation data allowed them to survive the crash because that's how those rockets work!

They're both real and their locations have been more-or-less tracked down over the years. We are also given ample information as to why only Dog can reach the Sierra Madre (he uses a combibation of smell and super-hearing to track his way to it using the radio waves and odor of the Cloud).

As for Big M.T. we are told by Ulysses that it is basically an unclimbable structure with no indication there is anything at the top and that it's just simpler to go around it. He made the climb and so did Christine and Elijah so it is possible, but incredibly impractical I would assume.

As for their locations...

The Sierra Madre could be anywhere. It's small and built inside a miniature canyon. It could be anywhere on the other side of the Colorado. Likely in Arizona territory.

And Big Mountain is most likely an exaggerated version of Kingston Peak by the information Ulysses says about the 127 route; "Not all of them. But they couldn't take 127 north to get around the mountains. As if Death Valley weren't enough, they had the Divide and Big Empty to deal with. From what the Legion's explorers reported, the Big Empty may as well have been a wall to any living thing approaching it."

 

Haven't I mentioned it to you? It could've been a gesture made out of gratitude towards the folks at Novac. Not only it was the folks at Novac who sent the Courier to help them, but it was ALSO Novac who agreed to take care of Chris Haversam, of whom the Bright Followers owed so much to.

Also, they don't even need the navigation improvement, they still survive the crash. Why would the ending slides mentioning them returning at all if they didn't survive? Why are you assuming the rockets crash landing would result in the Bright Followers all dying and, thus, 'return to Novac with their tails between their legs' when the ending slides suggested nothing close to that?

Fine, but look at it this way: they saw the wasteland as places full of bigots, right? Obviously they wouldn't want just about anyone to know where exactly the Far Beyond is located, or any place near there. Hence why even we, the Courier, and even Chris Haversam who they have taken as one of their own but couldn't take because he's not truly a ghoul (they were concerned of his well-being, he's still a human and will die horribly from not only the radiation in the Far Beyond, but also from the radiation in the rocket launch pad), are not privy to such information, despite them being such great help to even let the Brights realized their goal.

 

I just cannot wrap my head around them returning. There is absolutely no reason to do so. Gratitude? That makes no sense. You're just justifying a reason you came up with. Hell, why would they thank or help the people Jason knows are killing their ferals? Yeah, they're ferals, but it's like someone killing your violent retarded family members. They need help in Jason's eyes, not a bullet.

Bright's group have been getting themselfs killed by Deathclaws, Powder Gangers, Legion soldiers and who-knows-what-else. You find their corpses all over the south area of the map. What makes you think this latest venture wasn't going to kill half the group outright? We are not given a reason for them returning or evidence the "Far Beyond" exists. Common sense dictates the trip was a failure.

The secrecy of this fictional "Far Beyond" has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

And how does dismissing them returning to Novac as them 'returning with their tails between their legs' anymore justifiable than the conclusion I came up with? There's literally zero evidence or implications of what you're saying based on the ending slides and the facts present in-game. Couldn't the fact that it was Novac who sent the Courier AND letting Chris Haversam stayed there a reason for them to return as a way to thank the folks at Novac? Also, let's turn your question around and ask, "Why wouldn't they thank or help the people of Novac"? Because you and I know, the folks at Novac didn't actually went out of their way to slaughter and kill the feral ghouls at the Test Site, only those who wandered too far away and threaten the safety of the town. The Brights hands were full with trying to get the rockets work AND fending off the Nightstalkers, so they can't help but let a group of ferals strayed from their protection. Meanwhile, the folks at Novac have all the reasons to defend themselves should the ferals happen to attack them. Jason Brights saw the wasteland as a place full of bigots, no? So based on the fact that neither the Brights nor Novac could help it, Jason understand that the ferals being killed at the outskirts of Novac is a form of self-defense. If Jason do or say anything else, he would came out as a hypocrite.

Now, let's turn your second question around and ask, "What makes you think this journey would kill half of the group outright?", because again, the ending slides suggested otherwise. There's no such thing as the Bright Followers dying from the rocket landing nor their journey failing as evidenced by the ending slides, only that one ending suggested some of them returning to help the folks at Novac rebuilding, and the other suggested that they returned just in time to help Novac evacuate before the Legion's invasion of the town.

If you still can't accept my conclusion that the Brights returned to Novac as a gesture of gratitude towards the townfolks, for at least taking care of Chris Haversam, then it's time to just agree to disagree.

It has everything to do with the discussion. You're the one who's been asking why they are using the rockets if the Far Beyond is 'within the walking distance', when there's no evidence in the game or the Brights suggesting anything close to that. And mind you, throwing some buzzwords like 'fictional' when places like the Glow and even Gecko existing in the series is mindboggling. Couldn't the fact that places like the Glow and Gecko existing gives you any hint as to what this 'Far Beyond' really is?

The ending slides doesn't suggest that they're returning with their tails between their legs, nor were they ever give any implications as to how far the 'Far Beyond' is located or if it even exists. The ending slides only stated that the Brights returned to Novac, ending slide 1 suggested that only several of them returned, while ending slide 2 suggested they returned just in time before the Legion begins their attack. THOSE are the fact, couldn't you admit that much?

I'll admit, though, that ending slide 2 weren't clear whether ALL of the Brights returned or not, so I'm now seeing from where you're coming from . But they don't give any implications as to whether the 'Far Beyond' even exists, or not.

 

i see what ur saying but also "more than a decade" is nothing. mr. house is trying to grow a society and thats going to take a while, like, probably longer than 50 years, which is probably how long it'll take for the NCR to recuperate. the NCR probably doesnt give a shit about if the public support them or not esp. since the dam is an amazing source of power (this is literaly what happens in nv [not a lot of ncr citizens like the war]) and it'll be a while after nv and oliver and kimball will probably be out of power (retired or other wise). 50 years of growing on an already established 100+ year society with an army vs 50 years and some robots (and the courier i guess) isnt a good outlook

 

That's a hell of a long time. Half a century of just sitting around doing nothing? I roleplay as a genetically superior supergenius descended from the Vault Dweller, Chosen One and freaking Jack Ryan from Bioshock. My character would never be suicidal enough to stand around doing nothing for decades. He'd have the NCR eating out of his hand in ten. The whole of the U.S. under his control in twenty. Overseas exploration on airships in thirty. He'd have conquered the whole of Europe, Russia, China and Africa by forty and finally by the time you say the NCR would retaliate my character would have named himself emperor of the world and would be looking for ways to restore the Earth to its former pre-war green lush glory. Probably by creating an uber version of the GECK.

How can all of this be possible in such a short timeframe? Well, by the end of New Vegas, if you play your cards right, you gain access to; New Vegas's moneymaking casinos, the Hoover Dam, Sierra Madre's weaponized holograms and matter replicators (infinite resources), Big MT's cybernetics and upgraded Securitrons, an army of securitrons to upgrade to Mark IV+, a giant robot scorpion, the near-indestructible Saturnite alloy developed in Big MT. And so much more.

The NCR does not stand a chance against all of this. Manpower only gets you so far. I also do not mention the Cloud developed in Big MT because it's impractical and chemical warfare can go to hell.

 

So is there any way to resolve the G.I. Blues quests peacefully so the Kings aren't exterminated in Mr. House's ending (which is exactly what happens if you resolve the King and NCR conflict peacefully), and where I'm also not forced to gun down half a dozen NCR troopers in the shootout with Pacer to complete the quest?

It's an issue I'm running into right now with a very good karma Mr. House play through. Perhaps there's just something super obvious I'm missing, but it seems like you can either tell The King the truth about the envoy attack with NCR and make relations peaceful, or ignore that evidence in order to incite war and gun down NCR troops in the process (which gives them Mr. Houses approval to stay in freeside)

 

There is a tie-in quest related to that given by the NCR ambasador, where he sends you to resolve the NCR/ Kings conflict.
That can be done by klling Pacer (framing the Van Graffs if energy weapons are used or spiking his jet with psycho) or using Kings favour to put an end to it.

Though Im not sure if it would affect Houses ending in any way.

 

Making peace between The Kings and NCR makes Mr. House exterminate The Kings after the battle of Hoover Dam. Inciting a war makes Mr. House look upon The Kings favorably and lets them stay.

The only thing I can do for the good ending for The Kings is deliberately withhold evidence from Pacers and Co.'s attack on the supplies, then shoot up a bunch of NCR troopers.