Dr Fallout
Centurion
I never said there wasn't any choice, I just meant that Mr House went to the strongest groups (like the Boot Riders) and asked them, rather then waste time on small fry, dig?
Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity
- Thread starter Throatpunch
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Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
Yeah, my meaning wasn't really made clear with that post. What I meant to say was that the Boot Riders, being nomadic and having a lame name, would have been small fry; they didn't even have a clubhouse like the Kings! The Boot Riders were the lowest of the low (presumptuously) and Mr. House made them one of the biggest powers on the strip.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Having a lame name meant they're weak? Umm great logic I guess. Also the Kings got their clubhouse when they were KICKED off the strip, not before. So actually your assumption has no basis.
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
Fine let me rework that logic: They were nomadic, meaning they must have been a manageable group, they wouldn't have considered taking on 20 securitrons, meaning they didn't have any fancy weapons, they decided who their chief was based on combat rituals, meaning they were stupid as shit. There is no proof that they were a large group, fuck aside from them the White Gloves were literally cannibals, they couldn't have been that large of a group considering that.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
Ah, but the Khans are actually very strong and a badass group! In Fallout 1, they were wiped out, with only one survivor. This very survivor, Darion, rebuild the New Khans in Fallout 2, only to be wiped out in 2241. And then, under the leadership of Papa Khans, they moved out of NCR's territory and settled in Mojave, specifically in the ruins of Las Vegas in 2267, and they thrived there. They stayed in there for 7 years, and it's enough for them to regrow and I can safely assume they are the biggest tribe in the Mojave at the time, that is until they were exiled by Mr. House. Heck, even after Bitter Springs, you still see them in Red Rock Canyon, going strong and a potential powerhouse to still be reckoned in the Mojave. So, while they did came to Mojave as a weak migrants, they had a time to thrive in the Mojave. They got big, that even after a bloody battle with Mr. House + the Three Families and Bitter Springs Massacre, they are still a bigger faction in the Mojave, whose involvement has to be calculated in the coming Second Battle for Hoover Dam. Although, it's weird Mr. House didn't even talk about them or give us quests to deal with them, but I can see why, since an army of Mark II Securitrons were more than enough and another great tribe in the Legion's part won't really make a difference. And the Kings, they were once just a small gang. Since they refused, they where shoved to Freeside. If Mr. House really just want to wipe out the small fry, we wouldn't see the Kings as it is now, wouldn't we?
The NCR, like has been said again and again, were thinly stretched across the Mojave that they barely manage to hold themselves together, hence you only see a handful of them concentrated around the NCR's embassy in the Strip, and Mr. House's Securitrons too busy policing the entirety of the Strip, guarding the Lucky 38, and guarding the entrance to the Strip.
Like I said, he didn't choose the strongest groups whatsoever. He approached every tribes in the surrounding ruins of Las Vegas. The Boot Riders, they ain't even famous. Did you hear anyone around the Mojave talked about how the Chairmen was once known as the Boot Riders? You don't. They were small, and the Boot Riders was nomadic tribes. Back then, when just one Securitron approached them with Mr. House's offer, they thought it was a joke and they destroyed the Securitron. It wasn't until Mr. House approach them with 20 Securitrons that the Boot Riders finally decided to listen. Since, like I always said again and again, that they actually had a choice: join, leave, or die, the current leader of the Boot Riders wanted to stay nomadic, despite that the rest of his tribe wanted to join. Note that he wanted to stay nomadic, so they would be leaving. But Benny challenged the leader, and he won. So there's that.
Seriously, casinos business alone already have him drown in caps. And like I said, part of agreement in New Vegas Treaty is that no NCR military personnel are allowed possession of weapons while in the Strip, with an exception of Military Police, who possess cattle prod which was meant to be a knockout weapon and nonlethal. Letting arms-trade along the Strip proper just scream, "Hey guys we sell weapons here too! You can always buy it here on the Strip, but please don't use that weapons, okay? Umm, guys, please don't aim that on me." Seriously.
And there's evidence that the Vault 21 dweller were divided on the matter, dammit! I've just played the game, I've just talked to Sarah Weintraub, the Vault 21 dweller were divided into Pro-House and Anti-House, period.
Oh, please! Tell me why Mr. House is far from genius. Or, how about I tell you why he's a genius. Should I? A military robot might be some sort of agreement with the government so that House can expand his pre-war influence but, eh, yeah it's pretty stupid, especially that Bethesda is handling Liberty Prime.
1. Yeah, Sierra Madre Vending Machine is really controversial topic.
2. While Hologram Armies stemmed from Big MT's research, it wasn't the Big MT that decided to make Hologram Armies. It was N.E who signed the contract with Sierra Madre, since the cost for invincible Hologram Army is far too high, even the Big MT refused to make Hologram Armies for Sinclair.
3. They didn't have the ability to tame and redirect those beast for their own personal gain (except maybe with Animal Friend perk). If anything, these beasts is detrimental to humanity, that it would be absolutely scrapped.
4. With only one fully upgraded suit. Imagine the cost to make more. For only one suit, even Big MT has to go through such length of research. The ending slides doesn't even give any implication for a possibility to mass-produce the suit. Of course, it's still a possibility, but imagine the cost, and what actual use it can for the betterment of humanity.
5. I concur.
6. With what we've seen in Vault 22, it's failed experiment and detrimental to humanity's future.
7. Securitrons are super robots in their own right, and from what we can see even Big MT can't compete with Mr. House in robotics, so is there something wrong with that?
From there I can say that while the combined effort of Dr. Mobius and Think Tank to make better future for humanity (IF THEY WEREN'T INSANE) beats Mr. House's goal, the reality speaks otherwise.
But your theory is weaker and the game presented otherwise. So here's a quick point-per-point on what is in the game and why your theory is false.
1. If he actually choose to wipe out the smaller groups without even giving the choices, why did the Kings were just shoved to Freeside?
2. The Great Khans actually had a time to get big, heck very big when they stay in the ruins of Las Vegas. If House really chose the big and bad, why did he exiled the Great Khans?
3. Like I said above, the Boot Riders doesn't even make a name for themselves to be remembered across the Mojave as 'Boot Riders'. We only know them as the Chairmen, and none of the people in the Mojave speak of them as the Boot Riders. The same may not be applied to the Omertas, who were once known as Slither Kin and actually somewhat made a name for themselves for being so vicious, but the White Glove Society, wasn't actually famous, despite being cannibals. Most of the Strip folks talked about the WGS as being creepy and hiding something in the basement, means they recognized the bad air around them but can't quite grasp it, so they actually didn't know about their cannibalism.
4. The agreement to work with him is there, because even the Great Khans spoke of it. The Great Khans were exiled, not outright wiped out, most likely because they were the biggest and baddest tribe at the time.
So your argument that Mr. House only offered the big time, that's false. It's in the game. If anything, none of the locals actually talk about this whole 'Mr. House wiped out smaller groups' thing you are saying.
And there's no evidence that situation gets worse. The Followers finding it increasingly difficult to take care of Freeside is due to an increase in tourism toward New Vegas. In time, when Freeside finally annexed to the Strip since he now has an army and resources no longer directed to finding Platinum Chip, those problems would be gone.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Actually they were a weak offshoot from the Great Khan territories up north, and wouldn't be stronger then the other tribes in the area. Also the Great Khans were fiercely independent, so it's safe to assume Mr House did ask them, but they refused. They refused integration with the NCR, even against greater military power. Remember, they speak very vaguely on the matter, and don't really disclose much. They thrived on the drug trade, not on military prowess or intelligence. The Drug trade alone sustained them, so it's not like they're a great powerhouse. They're not thriving, they're doing okay. I doubt starving in a canyon is called success. Not really, they were only involved as an extra group of mercenaries. Otherwise they're not really that impressive. Because MAYBE Mr House and the Khans have bad relations due to them fighting? Yeah, you're right, the NCR wasn't there at all! He probably didn't even ask them, because they were small. Why would he? Actually it makes more sense if he ignored them and shoved them away, that would explain their survival. He couldn't be bothered.
Yeah, because they had the shitty job of protecting most installations while the rest thought and died against the Legion. However there are guards that keep the peace when they can. They protect the Ultra Lux to the Embassy area, with Mr House's robots. Except the securitrons could easily police at least Freeside, due to being nearby.
He did, it makes far more sense if he did. It explains why the Kings are alive, why the Fireside locals are alive and why the Khans were kicked out rather then destroyed. So? The majority of the Mojave is NCR or locals on other towns, they haven't even heard of the Kings or anything else about the tribes that aren't their current version, so not a big point. Evidence that they were small? Nomadic tribes do not equal=small groups. Genghis Khan's army was nomadic, and yet his force was extremely powerful. Yeah they had choice, but the choice was only asked to the local powers rather then every small group of bozos. So the leader is an idiot, the tribe are smart. So what?
A businessman that doesn't want more money! Is this a utopia? And again, the Van Graffs are not part of the NCR military in any way. Umm you realise you can carry weapons onto the strip already and that it's only banned INSIDE the casinos? So no problem!
Example (though this isn't such a problem, so you don't have to prove it, I take your word)?
Hahahaha! I would love to! But if you want... who do you want to go first? It is, but even then the government should be looking for common weapons not a single super weapon. They rarely work due to limitations in range. What do you expect?
1. Exactly, it turns resources into such a minor limitation.
2. Sinclair never asked for hologram armies, no one did due to being limited to the projector. However it's possible that further research could make them mobile and hence create a really powerful force.
3. Except that with further science (remember all their efforts were flawed due to insanity) it's not dumb to assume it could happen.
4. Betterment? No this it for power and control, which House needs to better Humanity.
5. Yeah.
6. Again, the base idea of tough and resilient plants is there.
7. Actually Big MT made better securitrons.
Not really, Mr House has done NOTHING to better Humanity yet, and can't because of a severe lack of resources.
Let's see!
1. 'facepalm' I never said he would wipe them out, he SIDELINED them and IGNORED them, just shoving them away. Different things you know?
2. By selling drugs? That's how the thrived in the area, they didn't beat the rest. But I concur. Also the Khans refused, they were too independent. That explains why they were exiled yet the kings were shoved aside now I think about it! They got the attention of Mr House in a negative way.
3. No one else did. Slither Kin? Yeah... who else talked about? Oh, thanks for providing an example! Exactly, no one talks about their early versions.
4. Yes I don't dispute that. I dispute that he asked that to everyone and they were kicked out because they refused directly. They were exiled because Mr House asked them particularly but they refused.
So actually it makes much more sense as I have explained. Your problem is that you didn't read what I said in the paragraph you quoted. Example is right here.
'After the Courier ensured New Vegas remain free, the Followers found that independent Vegas was even more unstable and violent than before. Old Mormon Fort became excessively burdened by the influx of patients, struggling to provide even the most basic of services.'
Really man, really?
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
The Followers shouldn't be mentioned anymore, they get fucked over in every ending except for NCR and then you have to jump through hoops to get the good Follower-NCR ending.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
From where did you get that? There are no other Khans/Great Khans by the time of New Vegas. The Great Khans we encountered in the game is the very same Khans/New Khans from Fallout 1/2 and that's that. There are no other Great Khans. I won't disagree with you when you said they came to the Mojave as weaklings, but they had 7 years to live in the ruins of Las Vegas and they thrived there. The way we see them in the game, battered and (nearly) broken, indicates they were pretty big before they were exiled from the ruins of Las Vegas by Mr. House and gets slaughtered in Bitter Springs by the NCR. I said they thrived back in the ruins of Las Vegas, not in Red Rock Canyon. So, yeah, me saying them going strong is an overstatement, so being okay in the Red Rock Canyon is truer. But still! They always come back, "like a phoenix".
You saying him just ignoring the small fry or outright wipe them out, without giving them any choices, is a baseless assumption, no matter how you try to justify it. I've already said, if he really didn't care for the smaller gangs, then we wouldn't see the Kings becoming big and literally reign over Freeside. The Kings were once a small gang and they were approached by Mr. House, and they refused. This is not something I made up, this is right there, in the game.
Freeside is BIG. But, the Kings don't really have a problem keeping peace in Freeside. With currently a handful of Securitrons only enough to watch the Strip, Mr. House know his limits. Unlike the NCR who insisted to thinly stretch their forces across the Mojave, Mr. House focused his forces on the Strip, which, again, a part of his agreement (which didn't include Freeside). On top of that, the Kings can deal with most of Freeside thugs without much problem (or otherwise we would hear about it and maybe get a quest to deal with it). Most problems we encounter in Freeside, however, mostly stem from the locals relationship with the NCR's squatters. Not from the thugs, and certainly not from the absence of Mr. House's Securitrons.
For evidence they are small, I'm going to counter you with asking for any evidence they were big? I've already asked you if you heard about how the Chairmen was once the Boot Riders from anyone else in the Mojave but, nope, you won't find any evidence that the Boot Riders were once a well-known gang in the Mojave. They are famous as the Chairmen, not the Boot Riders, certainly means they were not big tribe. And me saying they were nomadic are not me saying it means they were small. What do you think 'nomadic' means? It certainly means that the Boot Riders, being nomadic, will be constantly moving around, not settling in one place. It was a coincidence that they were staying around the ruins of Las Vegas when Mr. House decided to come out of hiding. Should Benny didn't challenged the tribe's chief, they would certainly decide to leave when offered an agreement by Mr. House.
The leader might be an idiot, but he's still the leader. He's the one who decide what will happen to the tribe. Him deciding to stay nomadic means they don't want to settle in the ruins of Las Vegas, and he choose to leave.
Did you even read what I've said? I'm going to rephrase it, and I'm going to say it again, and again, until it knocks some sense into your head regarding arms-trade in the Strip. Allowing any form of arms-trade in the Strip proper will only signal to anyone, the NCR, undercover Legion, whoever they are, with a message that sounds like,
"Hey, guys, maybe we didn't allow any possession of weapons by NCR's military personnel, but we're selling weapons here, in the Strip, anyway! Please don't use the weapons while you're in the Strip proper, okay? Umm, guys, why are you aiming that weapon at me?".
This is something that Mr. House would most likely come up with if you were to ask him why he didn't allow any other kind of trades in the Strip, like arms-trade. This is similar when you ask him why not assign better armed and more guards to the Platinum Chip, instead getting a single Courier carrying it. He replies,
"Had I used an armed caravan to transport the Chip, I might as well have been announcing to the world "this is important. Attack this!"
When the Courier came to the Strip, is he even recognized as an NCR's military personnel? I've already said that a part of New Vegas Treaty between Mr. House and the NCR is that, no NCR's military personnel are allowed possession of any kind of weapons in the Strip proper, with an exception of NCR's military police possessing nonlethal cattle prods. Very specific, did you missed that? And since he specifically wrote that in his contract with the NCR, allowing arms-trade in the Strip proper will only render the Treaty obsolete and made him look like a fool. Let's say he did allow arms-trade, now what will prevent, like, multiple NCR's unarmed personnel, from deciding to buy a weapon at a same time? Or stopping any of the arms-trader from conspiring with anyone who can enter the Strip from letting an easy access to weaponry on the Strip proper? Or stopping just about anyone crazy enough to bring a number to buy weapons at the same time, and begin shooting on the street of the Strip? Would be bad for business, no?
Well, proof that Mr. House is a genius is already all over the place, so maybe you go first? I'm curious. If you go saying Mr. House as being deranged or just a dreamer, I can understand. But not a genius?
2. Actually, Sinclair did. He did wanted to develop a use for holograms as a means of defense. And the Big MT refused! That speak of something. While it is possible, the cost is too high.
3. Oh, that can happen. And when that do happen, what is it for humanity?
4. See why it's irrelevant to bring up the Stealth Suit while talking about how it's possible to utilize the Big MT for humanity?
6. Hmm, now that I think about it, tough and resilient plant when brought into space. Why is it bad? Why is it OP?
7. If 'crazy', defect, uncontrollable Securitrons are 'better' than the ones that can be keep under control, then I think I can see why you think the Big MT are better than Mr. House's RobCo at robotics.
Look, as much as wacky and silly the content of OWB's DLC is, both the opening and the ending slides of OWB indicates that the Big MT was once a serious business in science, with a sole purpose of betterment of humanity. They got insane because the bombs fall first and they most probably fell into despair that there's no more humanity to be improved out there. From this despair, they fell into madness and started to make all these crazy experiments, where they were too busy thinking whether if they can or can not, that they forgot to ask themselves if they should or should not.
And Mr. House actually did something to better humanity. The Three Families? They won't be possible, if not for Mr. House helping them reform themselves. If Mr. House can reform the three tribes into the Three Families, then he can do it with humanity at large.
1. Ah, my mistake. BUT! He didn't! He didn't just 'sideline' and 'ignore' smaller gangs. Remember, the Kings were offered a chance to reform and they refused. So does the Great Khans (if you insist the Great Khans were still weak and small when they were approached by Mr. House).
2. Eh, I think they don't just refused to reform; they also refused to leave. Remember, Mr. House specifically offered 3 choices: Join, Leave, or Die. The Kings specifically refused and decided to leave, so they were simply shoved to Freeside. The Great Khans, tho, I insist they were pretty big at the time, on top of being too independent, that they decided to not only refuse to join, but they also refused to leave. A fight broke out between them and Mr. House + the Three Families. Hence, why they were exiled as far as Bitter Springs.
3. Ah, now you agreed with me when I say that the Three Families, in the past, were actually quite small! So where's the evidence that they were big and Mr. House only approached the big and bad, while sidelining and ignoring the small fry?
4. But he did asked everyone. The Kings were offered the choices, too, you know? Despite them being a small, nameless gang at the time. Like I said above, not only the Great Khans were too independent to join, but they were also too big to just get persuaded to leave the ruins of Las Vegas, so a fight actually happened between Mr. House + the Three Families and the rest of the tribes that refused to leave.
And where in that it implies the situation gets 'worse'? That happens not just when we support Mr. House, that also happens when we go Independent. That's inevitable when New Vegas potential were realized to its' fullest, to the point of a significant increase to tourism and visits upon New Vegas.
@Izak is right. We should stop talking about what the Followers has to say about New Vegas and the surrounding area, since they were kind of such a bitch like Daniel is in Honest Hearts endings.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
You know, I might actually benefit if I point out my theory rather then cringe at your interpretation and amalgamation of my old one and new one. Basically I believe that Mr House came to New Vegas and used his robots to get the lay of the land, working out the big shots of the area. He then approached them with his robots, offering them the contract as it were. He ignored all the random gangs living in the sewers (why would he ask them? You've never explained that). They were simply kicked out, unless they resisted, in which case they were killed. The Great Khans refused, leaving the Omertas to fight them and then exile them, the Kings weren't really influential (as in they didn't warrant being beaten but they were powerful enough to be asked) so they were then shoved to Freeside and then became a power there. The kings became powerful out of their own accord, and Mr House ignored them as long as they didn't mess with him and the Strip. It explains why he let them grow. It also explains why Mr House attacked the Khans but not anyone else, or what did he look to fight the bigger groups rather then hobos hunkering down in a run down apartment? I know, but they weren't small in comparison to the Freeside locals. They were sidelined, does that make sense to you? Or did House run after every small group of survivors?
Oh god... actually the Kings have lots of problems. There's drugs, there's crime, there's inequality (they're discriminating against NCR citizens) and more. Stop fucking ignoring basic shit the game tells you. Yet he freely spends millions on a long lost chip... I don't know about limits there. Without the NCR the strip would have been lost long ago. They're the only wall that protects Vegas from the Legion. So they have a very good reason in being spread thin. Not really, especially as the Kings don't generally care about the Freeside. Have you seen them help anyone? Well? They ruin things with the squatters and don't solve problems. So let me get this straight? You require a quest just to be serious? How can you deal with independent and random criminals? They're not part of some big gang. Actually thugs are a big problem. The Kings fail to stamp them out, which is why they attack you all the time.
That's the best you can do? That's a fall back argument that allows me to counter with the same thing. But remember, by size I meant they were big in VEGAS not the Mojave. All you had to be was someone in New Vegas to be asked, that was the criteria. So? Most people you speak weren't even there when the event happened. The only reason people know of New Vegas is because it was renovated and found by the NCR. Not at all, the Legion is made up of massive tribes and yet no one but they know about it. Does that mean they were small? Wait what? Nomadic doesn't mean they don't stay in a certain vicinity. The Mongols stayed in Mongolia, only spreading when totally necessary. The Boot riders could have travelled near New Vegas to pick up resources, using the city as a sort of meeting ground. And Mr House saw how big they were and asked them. So?
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY! And again.
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY! And again.
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY!
So all the problems you said can happen anyway. Hence the problem isn't the stores, but House's own security system. If he did ban guns then you would have a point, but as he didn't then it means that what you say is valid but it's also no really a good point against the shops. I was saying examples for the Vault 21 divide.
1. He runs his city no better then the Legion, basically he extorts successful businesses for money with intimidation and fear. There's no intelligence or financial acumen, just some powerful force. Hence he runs his city like a simplistic tyrant, and as of such I fail to see how he could improve it when he already failed to do so in simple ways.
2. His goal is impossible due to the heavy lack of resources in the Mojave. As we can see his army isn't strong enough to beat the Legion head on (remember the NCR? Yeah they were there) without military help. He was able to beat the weakened NCR military, but from this it's seen that he lacks enough robots to fight both head on. So he can't expand and can't commit to his dreams of industry and space travel.
3. Spends millions on what could be on the bottom of the ocean. Then fails to protect it for secrecy, when having an armed caravan is a better idea. The only group that could be able to fight a caravan the size that House would be able to buy is the Legion, and House can use his wealth to buy rare materials as a smokescreen.
4. Limits the trades inside New Vegas for as you put it safety concerns, even when that doesn't make sense because those concerns would be there anyway (how else do I go on a massacre inside the Strip? How else did the Omerta's get the guns?). This makes banning gun merchants pointless and bad for business.
5. Fails in securing Freeside and Westside, hence relying heavily on trade and tourism. Simply put Vegas is not self sufficient and relies on NCR run farms and merchants. Without these the city would fall into depression and starvation very quickly.
6. Ignores the fact that Vegas could easily fall with NCR economic blockade. Without tourists there's no business, without business there's no Vegas.
And that's all for now. I might do some more actually...
2. Where? A means of defence does not equal=an army. When I get a dog for a means of defence do I want to breed some large force of a thousand pit bulls?
3. Who knows?
4. I was talking about how Big MT made the 'owner' extremely powerful. You changed the goal posts for the betterment of humanity bullshit.
6. Or farming. Because it means you can farm anywhere, making deserts a good use of territory and allowing factions held in mountains to thrive and be self sufficient.
7. They became defect due to a lack of control and working on, some more engineering can make them really shine.
No one gets Big MT. Okay? No one gets it. Otherwise the Legion could become some futuristic cyber punk mega force.
2. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree to all this.
3. They were big in Vegas only, different thing. Where's the evidence he asked everyone?
4. Even Billy, Bobby and Barty in the sewers? Agreed. They were influential in the area, which means something. Agreed.
See how much my new version agrees to you? The only difference is that I believe Mr House didn't ask everyone.
Hahahahahaha!!! 'even more unstable and violent than before' Yeah that doesn't say it got worse. So Vegas becomes worse without the NCR or Legion. And you were saying?
What why? What makes you be able to ignore certain endings?
Oh god... actually the Kings have lots of problems. There's drugs, there's crime, there's inequality (they're discriminating against NCR citizens) and more. Stop fucking ignoring basic shit the game tells you. Yet he freely spends millions on a long lost chip... I don't know about limits there. Without the NCR the strip would have been lost long ago. They're the only wall that protects Vegas from the Legion. So they have a very good reason in being spread thin. Not really, especially as the Kings don't generally care about the Freeside. Have you seen them help anyone? Well? They ruin things with the squatters and don't solve problems. So let me get this straight? You require a quest just to be serious? How can you deal with independent and random criminals? They're not part of some big gang. Actually thugs are a big problem. The Kings fail to stamp them out, which is why they attack you all the time.
That's the best you can do? That's a fall back argument that allows me to counter with the same thing. But remember, by size I meant they were big in VEGAS not the Mojave. All you had to be was someone in New Vegas to be asked, that was the criteria. So? Most people you speak weren't even there when the event happened. The only reason people know of New Vegas is because it was renovated and found by the NCR. Not at all, the Legion is made up of massive tribes and yet no one but they know about it. Does that mean they were small? Wait what? Nomadic doesn't mean they don't stay in a certain vicinity. The Mongols stayed in Mongolia, only spreading when totally necessary. The Boot riders could have travelled near New Vegas to pick up resources, using the city as a sort of meeting ground. And Mr House saw how big they were and asked them. So?
Ugghhhh, let m say it nice and slow here. Those weapon shops wouldn't be able to sell guns to the NCR and if they go undercover then it doesn't change anything. Why? BECAUSE YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY! Let me say that again.
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY! And again.
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY! And again.
YOU CAN TAKE WEAPONS ONTO THE STRIP ANYWAY!
So all the problems you said can happen anyway. Hence the problem isn't the stores, but House's own security system. If he did ban guns then you would have a point, but as he didn't then it means that what you say is valid but it's also no really a good point against the shops. I was saying examples for the Vault 21 divide.
Not really. Okay sure let me see...
1. He runs his city no better then the Legion, basically he extorts successful businesses for money with intimidation and fear. There's no intelligence or financial acumen, just some powerful force. Hence he runs his city like a simplistic tyrant, and as of such I fail to see how he could improve it when he already failed to do so in simple ways.
2. His goal is impossible due to the heavy lack of resources in the Mojave. As we can see his army isn't strong enough to beat the Legion head on (remember the NCR? Yeah they were there) without military help. He was able to beat the weakened NCR military, but from this it's seen that he lacks enough robots to fight both head on. So he can't expand and can't commit to his dreams of industry and space travel.
3. Spends millions on what could be on the bottom of the ocean. Then fails to protect it for secrecy, when having an armed caravan is a better idea. The only group that could be able to fight a caravan the size that House would be able to buy is the Legion, and House can use his wealth to buy rare materials as a smokescreen.
4. Limits the trades inside New Vegas for as you put it safety concerns, even when that doesn't make sense because those concerns would be there anyway (how else do I go on a massacre inside the Strip? How else did the Omerta's get the guns?). This makes banning gun merchants pointless and bad for business.
5. Fails in securing Freeside and Westside, hence relying heavily on trade and tourism. Simply put Vegas is not self sufficient and relies on NCR run farms and merchants. Without these the city would fall into depression and starvation very quickly.
6. Ignores the fact that Vegas could easily fall with NCR economic blockade. Without tourists there's no business, without business there's no Vegas.
And that's all for now. I might do some more actually...
2. Where? A means of defence does not equal=an army. When I get a dog for a means of defence do I want to breed some large force of a thousand pit bulls?
3. Who knows?
4. I was talking about how Big MT made the 'owner' extremely powerful. You changed the goal posts for the betterment of humanity bullshit.
6. Or farming. Because it means you can farm anywhere, making deserts a good use of territory and allowing factions held in mountains to thrive and be self sufficient.
7. They became defect due to a lack of control and working on, some more engineering can make them really shine.
No one gets Big MT. Okay? No one gets it. Otherwise the Legion could become some futuristic cyber punk mega force.
1. I explained on this one.
2. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree to all this.
3. They were big in Vegas only, different thing. Where's the evidence he asked everyone?
4. Even Billy, Bobby and Barty in the sewers? Agreed. They were influential in the area, which means something. Agreed.
See how much my new version agrees to you? The only difference is that I believe Mr House didn't ask everyone.
Hahahahahaha!!! 'even more unstable and violent than before' Yeah that doesn't say it got worse. So Vegas becomes worse without the NCR or Legion. And you were saying?
What why? What makes you be able to ignore certain endings?
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
I'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare House to the Legion and NCR, House compared to Independence is a fucking god. Sure, the Legion bring order and NCR bring stability but they also bring barbarity and bureaucracy, respectively, House is Independence with additional stability, nothing comparable to NCR/Legion but still a better alternative to anarchy.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
It's not, but there are comparisons. Mr House pretends to be better then the Legion, but when it comes to government... they're very close, except one has murder, rape and slavery. Stability? Go to Freeside.
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
Stability relative to Independence. With House Freeside continues to suck, with Independence it becomes worse, same applies to just about every important settlement, better off with House but with less freedom.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Actually Freeside becomes worse with both no matter what. Even more so with House because he allows the Kings to attack migrants or destroys them.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
Correction, Mr. House didn't 'came to New Vegas'. In fact, he was already there, hidden in the Lucky 38 among the ruins of Las Vegas (which was mostly preserved in its' physical form thanks to his effort of taking down 68 out of 77 nuclear warheads targeted upon Vegas and the rest of the Mojave). He waited for many years before finally emerge from the Lucky 38, represented by his Securitrons. Your theory that Mr. House only go for the biggest tribe, I can understand that. But, he didn't just ignore the smaller gangs, like I've explained with the Boot Riders not really a big tribe when they were the Boot Riders, and the Kings weren't also ignored, but the Kings refused. I can't speak much of the gangs living in the sewers, since I'm yet to get there in my second playthrough to pay more attention but, all I remembered about the gangs in the sewers beneath New Vegas (especially that of North Vegas Square) are that they are actually bunch of troublemakers, so....
Anyway, it's not fair to say Mr. House only attacked the Khans. Remember, he offered the tribes dwelling the Las Vegas ruins (no matter they were big or small) three specific choices: Join, Leave, or Die. From what we see in the game, not only the Great Khans refused to join, they also refused to leave. But, if there's any other smaller tribes/gangs that also do the same like Great Khans, they were probably actually wiped out since they weren't as big as the Great Khans to survive the onslaught. Remember, none of the tribes who dwelt in the Las Vegas Ruins were just ignored and/or sidelined like you think there is. As for those who dwelt beneath, in the sewers..... eh, I guess Mr. House did ignored those in the sewers, since there was no underground system beneath the Strip, so I'll give you that. But there is a possibility that those we find in the sewers are probably those shoved away from the Strip area and didn't find any place in Freeside and Westside (or chose not to).
NCR. Citizens. Or, should I say, Squatters. There is a reason why they were called Squatters, mate. They weren't locals by birth, and there was no formal/legal proofs that they can just occupy Freeside and live there, hence why we see the Kings (and actually the rest of the locals) were being hostile to the Squatters by default. Like I said, his contract with the Three Families were specific and exclusive to the Strip proper. And yes, without the NCR, the Strip would have been lost; but that's not the reality, isn't it? The NCR came in, anyway. Instead of finding ruins of Las Vegas infested by raiders and tribal, they found it as an ordered, civilized society under the rule of this mysterious Mr. House, backed by the Three Families. However, if the NCR really wanted to annex the Strip there and then, without even listening to Mr. House offer to make the New Vegas Treaty, they can do it. But there's another threat, more terrifying, looming from the East, hence why the NCR signed that Treaty.
The NCR has no reason to thinly spread their forces, tho. Cass (and maybe Boone) speaks of how it was a grave mistake, and you can see why. Nipton was burnt, Ranger Station south of Novac was lost, Nelson was captured by the Legion, and Powder Gangers easily ambush NCR's caravans traversing the Mojave. The NCR's part in the New Vegas Treaty was that they were supposed to police and guard the Mojave landscape, but their tactics of thinly stretching their forces is what also gave the Caesar's Legion a chance to regrow. This is a mistake made by the NCR, and Mr. House learned from that, hence why you don't see him just spreading his Securitrons around New Vegas, and instead, focused them in the Strip proper.
If the Kings actually doesn't care about Freeside, you wouldn't see them giving you gifts for helping people around, or actually genuinely care about the locals (specifically Roy and Wayne, who you can find in the Old Mormon Fort) and ask you to see to what happened to them. Heck, they were in pretty good relationship with the Followers also. The problems that we see when you arrive in Freeside, however, stemmed from the Squatters starting to flood the Freeside and taking up spaces meant for the locals. They were called 'Squatters' for a good reason, mate. Heck, you even get to see that people living in North Vegas Square also disliked the Squatters coming into their territory. The Kings were already made an effort to solve the problems with the Squatters, which is by charging for water. Not very bright, yes, but they are still a force to be reckoned in the Freeside. Seriously, if you think the Kings failed to stamp out the thugs, I see otherwise because a single Kings member were more than enough to fend off, like 3 thugs charging at any of them. And like I said, if the thugs were really a problem in Freeside, there should be a quest to deal with them, or at least you should hear it from the locals as if it was really such a big problem that they constantly talk about it or whatever.
Considering Las Vegas was physically preserved, and so does Goodsprings, and also (to a lesser extent) Primm, Novac, and Nipton, all survived the Great War, I'm sure they the people across the Mojave would actually explored what remains of the Las Vegas ruins. Because of that, they should've heard about the tribes and gangs infesting the ruins. It's not like for 200 years the inhabitants of the Mojave were just oblivious to a 'ruin' not really ruined. They must be really dumb to not notice the Las Vegas 'ruin' still there, standing. And then, they investigated the ruins. They found out there were raiders, tribal, and gangs dwelling in the ruins. And then the word started to spread. See where I'm going? The Great Khans were well known because, while they came to the Mojave as weaklings, they were still pretty strong and badass for traversing the land from the NCR's territory to the east towards Mojave. And then they thrived there. Hence you hear about them as the Great Khans. If the Boot Riders were really big, and since they were also nomadic, shouldn't you hear about them somewhere in the Mojave? And yes, nomadic doesn't mean they stay in a certain vicinity, hence why I said it was a coincidence they were staying around the ruins of Las Vegas when Mr. House approached them.
Good God, did you even actually read what I wrote regarding the allowance of arms-trade in the Strip proper? Let me tell you why you, the Courier, can take weapons onto the Strip.
YOU ARE NOT AN NCR'S MILITARY PERSONNEL! And again.
YOU ARE NOT AN NCR'S MILITARY PERSONNEL! And again.
YOU ARE NOT AN NCR'S MILITARY PERSONNEL! And again.
YOU ARE NOT AN NCR'S MILITARY PERSONNEL! And again.
Mr. House didn't ban guns. He specifically banned the possession of weapons by NCR's military personnel who wanted to enter the Strip. And since he do that, allowing an open-wide arms-trade in the Strip proper will make a problem. And hence, also why all the problems I said can happen anyway, because Mr. House realized his limits on keeping peace in the Strip. Now that I think about it, there was actually a small time arms-trade in the Strip: Mr. Holdout. The shady guy is selling holdout weapons right outside Gomorrah, but the guy won't sell you anything if your reputation is positive in the Strip. Hell, now that I mentioned Gomorrah, I forgot to mention to you about the Omertas! Those people are hoarding weapons in their casino, right under Mr. House's nose! Now, imagine what will happen if Mr. House actually allowed an open arms-trade right in the Strip? Like I said, bad business, mate.
You want example of Vault 21 divide? Play the game, go to Vault 21, see the guest terminal, read about the history of Vault 21. Besides, due to the nature of Vault 21, where everything were settled by gambling, I see nothing wrong with Mr. House winning the gamble if he's actually the one who challenged the Vault 21 dwellers to settle the dispute between him and them.
1. This is just plain wrong. Anybody working with Mr. House will always be in an employer-employee relationship. If he really rule with intimidation and fear, you would hear it from the Three Families working for him. Heck, YOU who get a chance to see him face-to-face would see it. I didn't see intimidation and fear. If there's no intelligence and financial acumen, how could he manage to reform the Three Families and actually run the Strip so successfully, that he, and essentially anybody working for him, get to drown in caps? People walking down the Strip, heck even the NCR's citizens and military personnel, were all so carefree and happy, how could you think of his rule as that of a tyrant?
2. His army weren't strong enough, because of the absence of the Platinum Chip! Besides, he actually admitted that his army, together with the Three Families, aren't even enough to stop the NCR from forcefully annexing the Strip. But if a fight happen between him + the Three Families and the NCR, the NCR would win but left vulnerable and wide open for the Legion to finish the job. Playing with the NCR's fear for the Legion, he get them to sign the New Vegas Treaty. This, is an intelligence acumen. Cunning, maybe, but intelligent move nonetheless. Give him the Platinum Chip, and he will have an army more than enough to replace NCR's military forces patrolling the Mojave.
3. 'What could be on bottom of the ocean' seriously? Enough with the 'what ifs'. The reality speaks otherwise. Mr. House is right, and he found the Platinum Chip where he want it to be found. I can see why you were pissed off, since it was a LOT of money spent just to look for it. But remember, the Platinum Chip kick ass, and it was necessary for Mr. House if he were to achieve his goals.
Like Mr. House said, guarding the Chip with an armed caravan will only increase the risk of it being attacked. Benny was a miscalculation in Mr. House's part, and he admitted it. Heck, Benny was to be made Mr. House's protege, and with Yes Man, Benny gets to sidetrack Mr. House to the Chip. If anything, Mr. House making this mistake is a proof that he's still a human being after all, since he can't read what's in Benny's heart.
You have to admit, the secrecy with having a single Courier carrying the Chip, with other five Couriers as dummies, worked perfectly to the point of the Courier made it so close to New Vegas, as far as Goodsprings. Benny had the advantage as the former Mr. House's most trusted individual and having Yes Man. If anything, the situation with Benny taking the Chip for himself is the exact same as the situation where Mr. House assigned you to go to the Fort to activate Securitrons factory, only to have you betray him and you destroyed it.
Like I said, employer-employee relationship. Nothing is stopping the employee from betraying the employer when it can happen, and when that happens doesn't necessarily means the employer is an idiot.
4. I've already explained above, again and again, that allowing arms-trade in the Strip will only hurts the business and make him look like a fool for allowing arms-trade in the Strip proper after banning the NCR's military personnel's possession of weaponry in the Strip. The problem with the Omertas hoarding weapons to conspire with the Legion is also another thing that actually happened. He didn't outright banning guns or other kind merchants. The Gun Runners, the Van Graffs, and the Crimson Caravans are doing fine by themselves, right outside the Strip. You know, everything has its' place. It's like saying not placing a huge garbage dump right next to estate of houses is a bad business because you didn't allow the residents to throw their own trash right into the garbage dump, when the truth is it can lead to health and hygiene problems.
5. Again, his Securitrons are only enough to watch the Strip, and he needed to focus his resources into looking for the Platinum Chip, which is essential for his goals, and would actually let him have an army enough to not only police the Freeside and Westside, but also the entirety of the Mojave Wasteland. Even without the NCR, there was still Goodsprings, Primm, Nipton, and Novac. If the NCR don't help them, they would let the Legion easily take over New Vegas-- wait.
6. By doing that, the NCR would be leaving New Vegas wide open for the Legion. Knowing the NCR, they don't want that. See why Mr. House is actually a genius? He took NCR's fear of the Legion into consideration, and confidently signed that Treaty with the NCR.
2. I think I need to play Dead Money again to find the specific terminal or proof that Sinclair wanted to turn the Holograms into a mean of defense. One thing for sure, he did fell into despair and madness to the point of making his vault a trap, instead of a proper vault. Thus, him wanting to make Hologram into a mean of defense is plausible.
But you did say things about 'Hologram Armies'! Now you're taking down your own arguments as to why Big MT is OP. You said 'Hologram Armies', I said making Hologram into a mean of defense, which the Big MT even refused to do. Remind me why 'Invincible Hologram Armies' made the Big MT OP, even when the Big MT themselves refused to do it for Sinclair, and instead have the National Electric fill in their place?
4. That was more of how you and I see the Big MT. You see Big MT making the 'owner' OP, I see the Big MT making humanity's future better, just as stated in the opening and the ending slides to Old World Blues.
6. Yeah, that too.
7. And? That doesn't make the Think Tank any better than Mr. House in robotics.
I'm not saying the Big MT will mean that any faction to get the Courier support will get an immediate access to the Big MT's tech. The ending slides indicates that when they are actually needed, the Courier will bring the tech from Big MT to humanity, and most especially the faction supported by the Courier.
3. Same thing. Vegas was pretty eye-catching in comparison to the Mojave, I've explained that if there's any gang to roam the ruins of Vegas, words should still spread across the Mojave. Well, he did asked the Kings and the Great Khans, maybe not including anyone in the sewers since he didn't have any means to access the underground except his personal bunker.
4. I still need to check on the sewers to see what they feel about Mr. House.
I can see where you're coming from. There wasn't much tribal and gangs to be found in the vicinity of New Vegas. I will be exploring the entirety of New Vegas proper to see and hear more of what the locals has to say about Mr. House.
Like I said, that was an inevitable effect of increased tourism and visits upon New Vegas. If anything, the Followers are an idiot to not see that. Is it necessarily bad? Heck, the more we talk about this, the more I'm disappointed with the fact that all those help, all those efforts we do for the Followers, helping Jacob Hoff and Bill Ronte, dropping medical supplies, establishing a trade relationship between them and the Garrets, recruiting Jerry (and possibly Veronica), all wasted with no closure on the effect it has on the Freeside. With that much Securitrons, Mr. House should now be ready to annex Freeside into the Strip but there was no closure on that *sighs*
Migrants. Or should I say, Squatters. Squatters led by a military official, nonetheless. You give all this talk about Mr. House being unfair toward the locals, and now you're defending NCR's Squatters? Seriously?
I'm not saying we should ignore them. I'm saying we should stop talking about it, since it gets nowhere. The Followers has no interest in seizing power and thus, they couldn't get to see what potential does New Vegas has as a money dump.
Conflict in the Mojave were resolved -> more people coming into New Vegas -> more people broke themselves in process -> more people getting addicted to drugs and alcohol.
Heck, drugs shouldn't really be a problem anymore if we helped the Great Khans learn to make useful medicine and persuade them to leave the Mojave. It's confusing
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Throatpunch
Banned
FREESIDE
So in freeside most people showed deference to the kings, as the top dogs in the area. After their annihilation from the securitrons, people will be shocked, in awe and terrified. I think it will be a good deterrent, making freeside a safe place, and he can destroy any gangs that pop up in the bat of an eye. Also the Followers will not be inundated by crime victims, allowing them to focus on healthcare and medical research more.
STABILITY
Think of this, Caesar might conquer the wasteland, but after he dies/is done conquering the Legion will collapse in one hell of a shit storm.
NCR is already experiencing food shortages, there scientists scrambling to find an agricultural boosting technology, and their military is becoming ineffective in a Mojave Vietnam scenario.
Yes Man would be a chaotic farce.
Mr House will stabilise the New Vegas area, get Hoover Dam working perfectly, and research space travel, eventually reaching the moon.
SPACE TRAVEL
So the last time I mentioned this all you did was moan about me citing the moon battle and ignored everything else. This time don't complain about the moon battle, treat it as canon and a piece of evidence supporting what I am saying, don't get some angry anti Fallout 4 hard on.
Launch faculties, rocket launching areas, (like JFK space centre) with data, fuel, tech and maybe rockets.
He is able to find fuel for the rockets he constructs. To be honest, he would probably use nuclear power not fossil fuels, fossil fuels went outta fashion in Fallout and was replaced by nuclear power.
I am going to talk about Repconn, and I know you think Repconn is irrelevant and didn't get into rocket development, but I disagree.
With all the money from the casinos and manpower clogging up Freeside, and the Followers of the ApocalypsHouse can effectively build up a workforce of technical specialists.
House can produce a lunar colony that is viable and self-sufficient in most concerns. He'd still need salvage, but that is assuming he loses Vegas in the process of taking hold of the Moon.
We have undeniable evidence of a moon conflict from Fallout 4
The battle at the sea of Tranquility? Generally people dont tend to have battles, unless there is something there of strategic value.
Perhaps what it was about was just who can take control and colonise the moon first.
People in space suits fighting implies that there are military base camps on the moon. In fact, it would only make sense that there are landing camps and beachhead on there.
Considering this, they more than likely had lunar facilities to deploy troops/fighters to attack one another. If there are any leftover facilities, House wouldn't even need to start from scratch on Earth.
Spaceflight technology was a good deal more advanced than in our own world, they have SSTO craft, nuclear propulsion, and continued going to the moon well into the 21st century from the first touchdowns in the 1960's.
House tends not to promise unless he can deliver, and I doubt that has changed here.
He would not talk about taking rockets to the stars unless he knew there was a feasible way to do it.
You cannot deny House is able to get to the moon.
We managed it in the 60's with technology vastly inferior to what House has
So in freeside most people showed deference to the kings, as the top dogs in the area. After their annihilation from the securitrons, people will be shocked, in awe and terrified. I think it will be a good deterrent, making freeside a safe place, and he can destroy any gangs that pop up in the bat of an eye. Also the Followers will not be inundated by crime victims, allowing them to focus on healthcare and medical research more.
STABILITY
Think of this, Caesar might conquer the wasteland, but after he dies/is done conquering the Legion will collapse in one hell of a shit storm.
NCR is already experiencing food shortages, there scientists scrambling to find an agricultural boosting technology, and their military is becoming ineffective in a Mojave Vietnam scenario.
Yes Man would be a chaotic farce.
Mr House will stabilise the New Vegas area, get Hoover Dam working perfectly, and research space travel, eventually reaching the moon.
SPACE TRAVEL
So the last time I mentioned this all you did was moan about me citing the moon battle and ignored everything else. This time don't complain about the moon battle, treat it as canon and a piece of evidence supporting what I am saying, don't get some angry anti Fallout 4 hard on.
Launch faculties, rocket launching areas, (like JFK space centre) with data, fuel, tech and maybe rockets.
He is able to find fuel for the rockets he constructs. To be honest, he would probably use nuclear power not fossil fuels, fossil fuels went outta fashion in Fallout and was replaced by nuclear power.
I am going to talk about Repconn, and I know you think Repconn is irrelevant and didn't get into rocket development, but I disagree.
With all the money from the casinos and manpower clogging up Freeside, and the Followers of the ApocalypsHouse can effectively build up a workforce of technical specialists.
Access to the moon is certainly a key factor given:
House can produce a lunar colony that is viable and self-sufficient in most concerns. He'd still need salvage, but that is assuming he loses Vegas in the process of taking hold of the Moon.
We have undeniable evidence of a moon conflict from Fallout 4
The battle at the sea of Tranquility? Generally people dont tend to have battles, unless there is something there of strategic value.
Perhaps what it was about was just who can take control and colonise the moon first.
People in space suits fighting implies that there are military base camps on the moon. In fact, it would only make sense that there are landing camps and beachhead on there.
Considering this, they more than likely had lunar facilities to deploy troops/fighters to attack one another. If there are any leftover facilities, House wouldn't even need to start from scratch on Earth.
Spaceflight technology was a good deal more advanced than in our own world, they have SSTO craft, nuclear propulsion, and continued going to the moon well into the 21st century from the first touchdowns in the 1960's.
House tends not to promise unless he can deliver, and I doubt that has changed here.
He would not talk about taking rockets to the stars unless he knew there was a feasible way to do it.
You cannot deny House is able to get to the moon.
We managed it in the 60's with technology vastly inferior to what House has
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Ediros
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Black Angel, you'd better give up, there is no way you can convice Dr Fallout or me.
And he brings valid points unlike you, whether you like it or not.
The thing is, House is hardly the best guy to rule the New Vegas. He rellies on courier to get the platinum chip to bunker hill, he gets him/her to kill Benny, he makes him/her do all the stuff FOR HIM. And you know why? Because he is unable to do it himself.
And even if the courier does help House take over New Vegas, do you honestly believe he will fulfill all the promises?
How can he send Space ships into space, when there is almost no resources? How can he fix the humanity, from its flaws when he is a human himself? Why has he never tried to help freeside, westside or any place like this? (They don't bring him money)
House is flawed and rules with fear. He exterminates the kings if you quell the attacks against NCR, he ignores Boomers (one of the most advanced factions in Mojave), etc.
Heck, even caesar makes more sense than House. At least that guy has got set goals, objectives, plans and he knows his limits. Sure the Mojave would become a second Rome, but at the same time the roads are safe, the bandits are exterminated and corruption is almost non existant.
I don't like the Legion or NCR and I don't think that any of them should rule, due to different flaws both of those factions have got. House is no different. If you watch the endings for House you see that the Mojave becomes akin to a Tyranny. He exploits people of Primm if you side with him and takes heavy taxes, etc.
However, where does he spend his resources? ON THE STRIP. Seriously, this guy treats New Vegas like a snowglobe, he can do whatever he wants to.
So yeah, for me Independent Ending is the best ending we can hope for.
And he brings valid points unlike you, whether you like it or not.
The thing is, House is hardly the best guy to rule the New Vegas. He rellies on courier to get the platinum chip to bunker hill, he gets him/her to kill Benny, he makes him/her do all the stuff FOR HIM. And you know why? Because he is unable to do it himself.
And even if the courier does help House take over New Vegas, do you honestly believe he will fulfill all the promises?
How can he send Space ships into space, when there is almost no resources? How can he fix the humanity, from its flaws when he is a human himself? Why has he never tried to help freeside, westside or any place like this? (They don't bring him money)
House is flawed and rules with fear. He exterminates the kings if you quell the attacks against NCR, he ignores Boomers (one of the most advanced factions in Mojave), etc.
Heck, even caesar makes more sense than House. At least that guy has got set goals, objectives, plans and he knows his limits. Sure the Mojave would become a second Rome, but at the same time the roads are safe, the bandits are exterminated and corruption is almost non existant.
I don't like the Legion or NCR and I don't think that any of them should rule, due to different flaws both of those factions have got. House is no different. If you watch the endings for House you see that the Mojave becomes akin to a Tyranny. He exploits people of Primm if you side with him and takes heavy taxes, etc.
However, where does he spend his resources? ON THE STRIP. Seriously, this guy treats New Vegas like a snowglobe, he can do whatever he wants to.
So yeah, for me Independent Ending is the best ending we can hope for.
Throatpunch
Banned
Think of this, Caesar might conquer the wasteland, but after he dies/is done conquering the Legion will collapse in one hell of a shit storm.
Its a completely unstable organisation, that will collapse son after Caesar acheives his goals.
That is crap.
Tyrant: Oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler.
That is not House, and I quote:
The reason Primm was taxed is because they sided with NCR, a bad decision in the long run.
I think it's also worth noting that through the ending slides, no matter player karma, a House victory explicitly states that House keeps New Vegas stable for generations. In a setting like Fallout, I don't think that something like stability should be undersold. Yes, New Vegas under House is ruled by a despot, but at least it's a despot who sees those he rules as employees, not as subjects. Under the Legion, the despot would want to crush all opposition, to bend minds to thoughtless loyalty. Under House, the despot wants to pay people to do a job, and only wants to exert direct control while they're on the clock.
More fallacies. Did you read anything I said about the space travel? He invests in hoover dam, turning it into a energy power house, and he invests in freeside, wiping our criminals there.
More crap. So he ignores the boomers, but what could he have given them? why would he need to pay specific attention, they were cogs in a bigger gear. The kings were a violent criminal gang.
So give me an example of him ruling by fear. Name some flaws. You make claims things without out evidence.
He is unable, so he hires an agent, just like NCR and Legion.
He is perfectly able to do many things, like stabilise the area, turn New Vegas into a economic powerhouse, get humanity to the moon again, destroy dangerous deluded dictatorships, and get Hoover Dam going again
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Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
How is my points any less valid than Dr. Fallout's? He brings up good points, like the possibility of him only targeting the big shots around the ruins of Las Vegas, but the rest was just baseless assumption where he refers to the fact that Mr. House is holed up in the Strip. He think he doesn't care about the rest of New Vegas; I think Mr. House knows his limit well that he focused on the Strip.
Did you really want to bring this up again? I imagine this is probably what the tribes and gangs in the Las Vegas Ruins would be arguing about when they were approached by Mr. House's Securitrons. They would be arguing whether or not Mr. House would be able to help them reform themselves to the point of being able to help him rebuild the Strip. Well, guess what, he did succeed in reforming the Three Families, and in turn, succeeded rebuilding the Strip.
I won't deny you when you say he is unable to do anything by himself. He's rendered immobile, as a price he paid for what was practically an immortality. How do you think he manage to rebuild the Strip? He requires help, and when he gets it, shit gets real. Not just all talk.
If you think Mr. House is unable to do anything by himself, how will you explain the NCR asking you to get the Boomers' support by yourself, or Caesar wanting to get rid of Mr. House, but it was you who have to do the punches? Remember, any of the major factions will only work if you support them, not just Mr. House.
Yes, I believe he will. He promises a chance to reform, a chance to begin again, to the three tribes who accepted his offer to join him, and he delivers.
There are plenty of resources. We've been discussing it many times. Food, water, and money, all no problems. Raw materials are a bit tricky, but the trade that the Free Economic Zone of New Vegas can establish with the NCR, the civilization beyond Zion Canyon, and heck even the Pitt when he gets the trains up and working again. It's possible. He did manage to 'fix' the three tribes and helped them reform into the Three Families. That was a small example. Give him time and resources, and he will do it with humanity at large. Him having human flaws itself means he can, and will learn from mistakes. I've already discussed why he never tried to help Freeside, Westside, and the rest of outer Vegas. In fact, those places has potential to bring him money, but his limitations, and the stalemate with NCR-Legion conflict, rendered him unable to expand the Strip. He only had a handful of Securitrons, which is only enough to watch the Strip, and he have to focus all of his resources to find the Platinum Chip.
Evidence of him ruling with fear? There's a good reason why he exterminate the Kings, should you help them reconcile with the NCR. The NCR's presence in Freeside is represented by NCR's Squatters, led by a military official on top of that. Because they are Squatters, the Kings and the locals were hostile to them by default, since the Squatters are invading the local's space. Part of Free Economic Zone of New Vegas Treaty that you presented to General Oliver after you win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, is that no military presence are allowed anywhere in the Mojave landscape. The NCR's Squatters flooding the space in Freeside were led by a military official, hence why the Kings reconciling with the NCR is seen as an act of treachery, where the Kings are assumed to fully embrace NCR's 'governing' presence in Freeside.
And I've already talked about the Boomers. What is it that the Boomers specifically possess to spark Mr. House's interest? I know the first sentence of the ending slide indicates that Mr. House just 'ignore' the Boomers, in a negative tone. But the second sentence, where the Boomers began to venture out of Nellis, and trading with the wastelanders without any hostility? That implies the Boomers begin to assimilate with the rest of Mojave, hence why Mr. House 'ignore' the Boomers, because he now treated them just the same as the rest of the Mojave: citizens of the Free Economic Zones of New Vegas.
And so does Mr. House. He also got set goals, objectives, plans, and he knows his limits, too.
Not the Mojave. The Strip.
This is false. If you assign Meyers or Primm Slim as the Sheriff, House leave them alone and recognized their independence. It was when you let the NCR annex Primm, that they were imposed with heavy taxes, and this is immediately seen in the game. As soon as you are able to trade with Johnson Nash, he will mention that he will be selling more goods, but it will be very expensive because of the taxes imposed on him specifically by the NCR.
Correction, he spend his resources on the Platinum Chip. The Strip, thanks to the Three Families, can work on its' own, so they don't need more of Mr. House's help outside of helping them to reform and armed support by the Securitrons. Deranged, I know, spending way too much money just for a thing that could've been fuck where we know. But it works. He succeeded in retrieving the Chip. He fails a bit at having it delivered to him due to getting sidetracked by Benny. But you help him, and you can see the Platinum Chip kicks ass. With military strength no longer a problem for Mr. House, and he no longer need to spend resources on it, he can finally begin to focus on improving the rest of New Vegas by annexing the rest of Outer Vegas into the Strip, one at the time. I know this is not really indicated in the ending slides, hence why I feel a bit disappointed because there were no more in-depth closure when you support Mr. House.
In my first playthrough I made a split save just to see an Independent Ending. There was no difference, as indicated by the Followers finding it more chaotic (for a good reason, though) just the same as when you support Mr. House. The only difference is whether or not Mr. House is in the picture, thus, his goal and vision for the future of mankind.
Edit: @Doomsdayprepper69 I think you need to gather more knowledge about the Kings. The Kings weren't really a violent gang or bunch of criminals. In fact, they were the ones who keep peace in Freeside. If you let the tension between the Kings and the NCR's squatters rise and explode, the Kings' act of attacking the NCR's squatters during the Second Battle for Hoover Dam would be seen as an act of loyalty to New Vegas, by Mr. House, hence why he leave them alone when that happens. Him wiping the Kings out, I've already give a better explanation up above.
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Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
I hate this view of the Legion. We don't know what Caesars plans are but we know for a fact that he's planning big change in the event that he takes Vegas, what if he's planning on appointing his Octavius then? Nobody bloody well thinks of that, it's always "Oh but Marcus says the Legion will collapse." what the hell does Marcus know about Legion?
Throatpunch
Banned
Caesar tells the Courier quite clearly that the Legion he has is not a nation, it is a wandering army holding land and operating only as a forward rolling conquest machine. Beyond Caesar, there is nothing. Without their God-King the Legion will collapse. Is there even a reason to support them when the Legion's life seems so short?
Lanius' leadership of the Legion is bad, given he is dreadful at it, and it will cause the Legion to collapse. He is the default choice after Caesar.