Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity

[Izak]

Yeah, they are a nomadic army, that's why Caesar wants to conquer Vegas. He wants to set down roots in Vegas, make it the Legions Rome, once he has his Rome he'll be able to focus on the future, appoint a legitimate successor like Vulpes or Lucius, or maybe he'll have a couple of kids and they'll become emperor.
Point is they won't stagnate, they'll change.

 

[Throatpunch]

Yeah, they are a nomadic army, that's why Caesar wants to conquer Vegas. He wants to set down roots in Vegas, make it the Legions Rome, once he has his Rome he'll be able to focus on the future, appoint a legitimate successor like Vulpes or Lucius, or maybe he'll have a couple of kids and they'll become emperor.

I can see the logic there, but how do you know if they will be good rulers or not? what qualities might Vulpes or Lucius have that means they can lead this gargantuan organisation. And how do you know his leadership qualities will translate through to his childeren?

 

[Izak]

I don't really have to prove that they'll be good leaders, the Legion has a massive amount of soldiers, surely one among them will be capable of taking Caesars place.
The children part relies on the education Caesar gives his hypothetical children, at a guess it'd be top notch with a good dose of indoctrination, either way he has to teach them how to build and strengthen the empire, more or less like real life Rome.

 

[Throatpunch]

I don't really have to prove that they'll be good leaders, the Legion has a massive amount of soldiers, surely one among them will be capable of taking Caesars place.

A pretty flawed plan, that. Just doing some kind of musical chairs and picking a random dude out won't work.
Its flawed because this huge organisation that needs a steady hand to guide it has no foreseeable future if it does not get a talented leader to replace Caesar, and there is no person I can foresee doing that.

The children part relies on the education Caesar gives his hypothetical children, at a guess it'd be top notch with a good dose of indoctrination, either way he has to teach them how to build and strengthen the empire, more or less like real life Rome.

I see what you mean, but indoctrination does not always work. And also, he can't indoctrinate competency as a leader. Many intelligent people who are indoctrinated in their cause would be awful leaders.

Its fine to talk about them, but if we are going to get really deep into the Legion debate, we might wanna relocate to the Legion Appreciation Thread. This one is about House, and I don't wanna go too far off topic

 

[Izak]

Slightly more on topic then, do any of you ever feel guilty when choosing House?
He's my personal favourite and it seems probable that he'll make the NCR come to its senses, but he fucks over the Legion really hard. Even if you don't kill Caesar he'll eventually die and then all that Legion territory will go to shit, thousands will die, all because you wanted an autocrat rather than a dictator.

 

[Throatpunch]

Slightly more on topic then, do any of you ever feel guilty when choosing House?
He's my personal favourite and it seems probable that he'll make the NCR come to its senses, but he fucks over the Legion really hard. Even if you don't kill Caesar he'll eventually die and then all that Legion territory will go to shit, thousands will die, all because you wanted an autocrat rather than a dictator.

Not at all, I never feel guilty over video games and choices in them. It's only a game, and they are only programmed people.

thousands will die

I'm not bothered. House won't be either, because most of the Legions forces go with them, in a huge war machine, so he vaporised most of them at the dam, and the ones left at home to garrison will be the equivalent of a minor raider group.

House needs to focus on proper issues like Hoover Dam, the strip, space travel, working with the NCR, reviving humanity, not genocide and infighting going on in Arizona.
You can't make a chicken sandwich without necking a chicken, if you know what I mean.

There will always be someone who does not benefit. And if you wanna make progress, you can't pander to them, you gotta focus on getting things done!

 

[Izak]

You're talking about proper issues but ignoring human lives, I don't think House has his priorities straight.
Say what you will about Caesar but he's doing what he does out of love for humanity, House wants to make Vegas into a pre-war utopia while ignoring the (at a guess) hundreds of thousands of Legion civilians that will lose their lives/possessions/freedom/safety Etc. if the Legion loses.
Although there's a lot of doubt over whether there'll ever be another Obsidian Fallout, the general belief is that if there was one, it'd be set in Legion territory post Caesar's death. The other presumption made is that the place will be an utter shit hole because we let Caesar lose, you can understand that logic right? I'm not sure I want to be a part of House's "progress" if it leaves the majority of humanity in the shitter.

 

[Throatpunch]

I'm not sure I want to be a part of House's "progress" if it leaves the majority of humanity in the shitter.

I do.
The NCR tried to take the approach you are espousing and it is failing for them, they are about to enter a food crisis, they are embroiled in a catastrophic Vietnam style scenario in the Mojave, and people are jumping off the sinking ship.
Once the ship is sunk, and the NCR just crumbles out a plethora of failures, food shortages, military humiliation and crisis, high taxes (most likely with a healthy dose of rebellion), the welfare state will collapse, so will the economy, jobs will disappear, and the NCR will have shoved 800,000 people in the toilet bowl.
None of these problems exist with Mr House, because of his small world approach, renovating Hoover dam, stabilising the New Vegas area, getting into space technology again, and making sure humanity is going in the right direction under competent leadership

You keep saying how it will be so shitty, but you aren't explaining why. What factors will make it shitty? Who will be doing the shitty things? Who will be stealing the lives/possessions/freedoms (almost don't exist in Legion territory). You aren't specifying where these issues will come from if Caesar dies, you have no evidence for your claims so I am not gonna treat it as a valid argument.

Since when were people in Legion territory the majority of humanity? Your forgetting Canada, Alaska Mexico, Europe, Asia.

 

[Izak]

The NCR tried to take the approach you are espousing and it is failing for them, they are about to enter a food crisis, they are embroiled in a catastrophic Vietnam style scenario in the Mojave, and people are jumping off the sinking ship.

The NCR went about it with the wrong ideas, they can't successfully manage everyone because they're all about freedom and whatnot, Caesar doesn't have that problem, safety at a cost is the Legions whole idea. If you become a burden to the Legion then you die, it's fucked up but the Legion doesn't have any apparent logistical problems so it must be working.

You keep saying how it will be so shitty, but you aren't explaining. What factors will make it shitty? Who will be doing the shitty things? Who will be stealing the lives/possessions/freedoms (almost don't exist in Legion territory). You aren't specifying where these issues will come from if Caesar dies, you have no evidence for your claims so I am not gonna treat it as a valid argument.

Basically the reasons Marcus gives. The Legion is made up of former raiders who've dedicated themselves to Caesar, if Caesar dies without appointing a successor then civil war is going to erupt between just about every Legion citizen.

Since when were people in Legion territory the majority of humanity? Your forgetting Canada, Alaska Mexico, Europe, Asia.

At a guess, the Legion has the largest population out of the Western states, either them or NCR but it doesn't really matter, a shittonne of humans is the point. I don't give a fuck about other continents, the Courier couldn't help them even if he wanted to.

 

[Throatpunch]

For a guy supposed to be arguing for Mr House you are seeming remarkably pro Legion, and you will denigrate our side of the argument if you continue.

The Legion is made up of former raiders who've dedicated themselves to Caesar, if Caesar dies without appointing a successor then civil war is going to erupt between just about every Legion citizen.

Really? why would the Legion citizens give a shit about the successor, they just wanna get on with their lives? Legion citizens won't have a huge civil war over this, given they are citizens, why would they care?
It'll be the small amount of faithful's and troops left after they were nuked at the dam that will be in civil war, and even then that will be the equivalent of a squabble in a small game raider gang.

Basically the reasons Marcus gives.

whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Oh, and I thought you didn't like it when people talked about Marcus' views on the Legion? You are totally contradicting yourself here. you just made exactly the opposite argument of the one you are making now earlier

Nobody bloody well thinks of that, it's always "Oh but Marcus says the Legion will collapse." what the hell does Marcus know about Legion?

I don't give a fuck about other continents, the Courier couldn't help them even if he wanted to.

I know, just making sure you were aware there are more people than just people in Legion territory.

The NCR went about it with the wrong ideas, they can't successfully manage everyone because they're all about freedom and whatnot,

You are correct there

 

[Izak]

For a guy supposed to be arguing for Mr House you are seeming remarkably pro Legion, and you will denigrate our side of the argument if you continue.

I'm all for playing devils advocate, I also think I like House more because of his charisma then for his ideals. I still feel that pang of guilt when I kill him though, he was probably the best choice for the Mojave, just a shitty choice for the world.

Really? why would the Legion citizens give a shit about the successor, they just wanna get on with their lives? Legion citizens won't have a huge civil war over this, given they are citizens, why would they care?

It doesn't matter whether they care or not, when Caesar dies it'll be conscription and enslavement all around for those of whom aren't already enslaved and/or conscripted.

It'll be the small amount of faithful's and troops left after they were nuked at the dam that will be in civil war, and even then that will be the equivalent of a squabble in a small game raider gang.

I don't think you understand the mammoth size of the Legion, they're not some big raider gang, they're a goddamn country, a big one at that. There are huge amounts of troops in Arizona that're just waiting to go to war when Caesar dies, it won't just be faithfuls going to war, it'll be anyone that believes they have a shot at replacing Caesar.

Oh, and I thought you didn't like it when people talked about Marcus' views on the Legion? You are totally contradicting yourself here.

Marcus doesn't have a firm grip of the Legions inner working because nobody does, but it seems likely that the Legion will go to shit when Caesar dies, if for any reason because it was a shithole before he rolled in (unless he appoints a successor).

 

[Throatpunch]

I don't think you understand the mammoth size of the Legion, they're not some big raider gang, they're a goddamn country, a big one at that. There are huge amounts of troops in Arizona that're just waiting to go to war when Caesar dies, it won't just be faithfuls going to war, it'll be anyone that believes they have a shot at replacing Caesar It doesn't matter whether they care or not, when Caesar dies it'll be conscription and enslavement all around for those of whom aren't already enslaved and/or conscripted..

All right! Ill concede to you there.
I am still going House because a civil war on such a huge scale would make a bad ass sequel game.

Marcus doesn't have a firm grip of the Legions inner working because nobody does, but it seems likely that the Legion will go to shit when Caesar dies, if for any reason because it was a shithole before he rolled in (unless he appoints a successor).

I guess he does not. It's most likely he'll rule until death because of his ego, not appoint a successor.

 

[Throatpunch]

I forgot to mention: huge civil war between the Legion is good for House, because it makes his position stronger. Massive civil war and genocide will just prevent the Legion from regrouping and attempting to attack the Mojave again, and when they do regroup many will be dead from the violence, so it will be easier for House's securitrons to destroy them. Also, it will take a while because morale will be so low because 2 of their figureheads and the entire praetorian guard are be ash in the wind (literally).

It'll be anyone that believes they have a shot at replacing Caesar.

So it will be at least a decade until they regroup, at which time House will have reinforced Vegas, and will be ready for another assault from the Legion and he will be able to destroy them easily.
And it won't just be House fighting this new and regrouped Legion, but the NCR too, they will want to have them destroyed so they don't have the chance of being attacked by them again, or to stop the Legion trying to conquer their territory again. I'm positive NCR will be involved, so this new version of the old Legion will have a pretty short lifespan.

 

[Izak]

I feel as though you're still missing the point of my arguments. What if my Courier cares about more than just the Mojave, what if he wants to help the world?
Helping House only helps Vegas, NCR kind of screws over everyone, Independence is anarchy so it doesn't exactly help anyone, I'm feeling more and more like Caesars the only utilitarian option. Sure there's enslavement and stuff but in the end I help civilisation spread and strengthen. House destabilises the Legion, that can't be good for humanity, not in the short or long run.

 

[Black Angel]

snip

You gotta admit, those who aren't enslaved by the Legion, but submitted to Caesar's rule, probably lived the most secure and safest life in a post-post-apocalyptic world. Traders traversing the Legion's territory without even needing to hire mercenaries and guards, that's how badass the Legion is. They may come off as slaver nation now, but if Caesar manage to set up his New Rome, I think there's a chance for the Legion to finally let go of their slaver's lifestyle and begin to treat woman better, especially if you play as female Courier.

Also, @Izak I respectfully disagree that helping Mr. House means only helping Vegas. Sure, that's what apparent in short term. But in the long run, I believe eventually humanity would be looking up to what Mr. House finally achieved.

 

[Throatpunch]

Also, @Izak I respectfully disagree that helping Mr. House means only helping Vegas. Sure, that's what apparent in short term. But in the long run, I believe eventually humanity would be looking up to what Mr. House finally achieved.

I agree

I feel as though you're still missing the point of my arguments. What if my Courier cares about more than just the Mojave, what if he wants to help the world?
Helping House only helps Vegas, NCR kind of screws over everyone, Independence is anarchy so it doesn't exactly help anyone, I'm feeling more and more like Caesars the only utilitarian option. Sure there's enslavement and stuff but in the end I help civilisation spread and strengthen. House destabilises the Legion, that can't be good for humanity, not in the short or long run.

I swear you are starting to get annoying pretending to be pro House.
It obviously benefits Mr House, and if you weren't a closet Legionary and supported House then you would acknowledge this as true

 

[Black Angel]

I swear you are starting to get annoying pretending to be pro House.
It obviously benefits Mr House, and if you weren't a closet Legionary and supported House then you would acknowledge this as true

To be fair, I don't see having the Legion crumble would benefit Mr. House in any way. It's obvious that Mr. House benefit more in the Legion staying strong and compete with the NCR. The way I see it, if the Legion fell before they can test the NCR's strength once more, nothing will stand between the NCR and the Mojave. Even New Vegas under Mr. House's full sovereignty and lots of Mark II Securitrons are still small in comparison to the entirety of the NCR as a whole. If NCR finally get a hold of themselves, and find a worthy leader like Chief Hanlon to lead them instead of people like Kimball and General Oliver, they would be a force to be reckoned with, even for New Vegas under Mr. House.

 

[Izak]

I swear you are starting to get annoying pretending to be pro House.
It obviously benefits Mr House, and if you weren't a closet Legionary and supported House then you would acknowledge this as true

I do quite like House, he's my favourite choice but I'm not going to ignore other arguments just because I like him the most. If Caesar's the best choice for the wastes then I think we should concede to that, otherwise provide counter arguments and prove that the Legion's in the wrong, prove House is the best choice. If you're not going to do that then change the title of this thread to "Mr. House appreciation thread".

Also, @Izak I respectfully disagree that helping Mr. House means only helping Vegas. Sure, that's what apparent in short term. But in the long run, I believe eventually humanity would be looking up to what Mr. House finally achieved.

If House wins and Hanlon takes a position of power then the NCR could reform and be happy with the piece of land it has, but that still only helps NCR (and House obviously helps Vegas). the Legion is clearly better at the whole imperialism thing, they're the only ones (thus far) that can conquer and govern large populations and areas successfully, if House can perform a similar function then I guess I'd concede.

 

[Throatpunch]

I would expect with a humiliating withdrawal from the Mojave caused by House, the people of the NCR would be in no mood for imperialism, probably electing a doveish leader who will not drag them into other conflicts. People will be infuriated about their boys getting killed and not coming back, all for nothing, just like Vietnam.
The economy will probably implode, the president will be forced to resign, General Oliver will be dead, commuted suicide, or humiliated.
You gotta think about the NCR just not bothering to return, it's highly unlikely they will re invade. Remember, NCR isn't like legion, they have the people to listen to, and the will of the people is more powerful than the will of the executive, and the people will not want to go back.

I do quite like House, he's my favourite choice but I'm not going to ignore other arguments just because I like him the most. If Caesar's the best choice for the wastes then I think we should concede to that, otherwise provide counter arguments and prove that the Legion's in the wrong, prove House is the best choice. If you're not going to do that then change the title of this thread to "Mr. House appreciation thread".

I get it, it's just I need all your help to destroy the opposition or we won't be able to convince anyone

 

[Izak]

I would expect with a humiliating withdrawal from the Mojave caused by House, the people of the NCR would be in no mood for imperialism, probably electing a doveish leader who will not drag them into other conflicts. People will be infuriated about their boys getting killed and not coming back, all for nothing, just like Vietnam.
The economy will probably implode, the president will be forced to resign, General Oliver will be dead, commuted suicide, or humiliated.

While I doubt the NCR would attack Vegas after their defeat I also doubt their loss would affect them that much. If anything it'd benefit them, they'd get rid of their imperialistic government and look to the problems on the homefront, indeed I think NCR fans should purposefully sabotage the NCR's efforts.