Why there are no ladders in Bethesda/Gamebryo games
- Thread starter Brother None
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I dont remember in HL2 the AI using ladders. THough actualy I dont remember any shooter so far where they did. Neither in Crysis, Far Cry, Doom 3 etc. (but granted there have not been many oportunities to even test it really).Jet1337 said:
Sorry missunderstood you then.Deimos said:I'm already said no.Crni Vuk said:
Half-Life 2 on GeForce 4MX. Good times.
havent played any FPS lately? take BFBC2 for example, not only they use ladders they also coordinate attacks, take cover etc, in dynamic environment, meaning its not like old games you just place a cover node here they need to use walls that can be blown out or use newly destroyed tanks as cover...Crni Vuk said:
Alphadrop
A right proper chap.
Playing Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 at the moment and the a.i is really devious when it comes to ladders. They use them to get behind you and also camp the top of them if they know you're at the bottom.
Maybe it has more a psychological reason. Ladders are looking high and steep, it needs some energy to climb them up. But everyone knows that players want to go the easy and smooth way, so using ladders would subliminal tell them "this is hard and complex, I don't like this game." Avoiding ladders in this case can make players feel more comfortable. 
Crni said:
Alpha Protocol?
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
the better the AI is the more complex it has to be
the more complex the AI is, the more CPU cycles it takes up
the more CPU cycles it takes up the higher the hardware requirements.
the higher the hardware requirements, the less platforms can run it.
the less platforms that can run it, the less palatable it becomes.
consoles have fixed requirements. they cannot beef it up to the point where it cannot run on consoles.
if i remember right the whole argument for why "radiant ai" did not make it into oblivion like promised was that it took too many cpu cycles to run on the xbox.
so why cant the AI use ladders? beth cannot figure out how to write it to where its passably decent on a console.
the more complex the AI is, the more CPU cycles it takes up
the more CPU cycles it takes up the higher the hardware requirements.
the higher the hardware requirements, the less platforms can run it.
the less platforms that can run it, the less palatable it becomes.
consoles have fixed requirements. they cannot beef it up to the point where it cannot run on consoles.
if i remember right the whole argument for why "radiant ai" did not make it into oblivion like promised was that it took too many cpu cycles to run on the xbox.
so why cant the AI use ladders? beth cannot figure out how to write it to where its passably decent on a console.
yep, unfortunately too many developers put AI very low in their priority list, i prefer less "shinny" games but one that will give me a challenge, because scripted events has its limits.TheWesDude said:
luckily the newer engines already include support for newer better and more optimized version of AI related functions, so we still see some progress.
although strategy games are still lacking in that regard and even deep strategy for PC (which usuallyy are graphic easy) are limited by performance issues.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That was the issue, supposedly within a short time total mayhem ensued. And when they did sweep the stone floors properly, it was with a rake. DOn't forget how they demod and marketed Radiant AI as the second coming of Christ and then had to scale it all back after the fact. Clearly they just make this shit up as they go along. They've never had any overriding design philosophy, it's a mish-mash of marketing driven ideas and easy to understand gimmicks for the LCD.sea said:
I think the larger issue here is Bethesda's odd developmental process of starting each iteration in a series tabula rasa. Instead of improving existing issues, they just unwittingly create all new ones, or overcompensate for previous faulures. They start from scratch and throw shit against the wall to see what sticks - Radiant AI, Face Gen, soil erosion, VATS, all that gimmicky bullshit.
Their approach to game design reminds me of plotting artillery by sight, they fire blind and then adjust on the fly regardless of how far off the mark they are.
The end result is that there's no continual improvement to a series, they fumble around blindly and burn of the series' previous fans with some mind-numbingly stoopit game design.
We don't even need to go there, Todd does a good enough job of making them look foolish all by himself.
mor said:
There are quite a few ladders in L4D1 ( a well-known exploit being to block the ladder so the infected are stuck while your teammates shoot them ) and common infected know how to use them.
To get on rooftops or on upper floors in both L4D1 and L4D2, special infected use special ladders ( the green ones with the claws signs ) and the bots special infected know to use them too.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Zumbs said:
I thought the reason was because Oblivion towns were separate locations, as opposed to Morrowind's towns where you could just walk in and out without a loading screen. In Morrowind, you could fly over the walls to get to a city; in Oblivion, you can't because there is nothing beyond the walls, you have to click on the gates to load what should be there.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
when you talk about bad AI, dont bring up blizzard or bethesda...
all are absolutely horrible at pathfinding and intelligent AI
at least blizzard tries to compensate for their crappy programming by having the AI "cheat" on a lot of aspects
all are absolutely horrible at pathfinding and intelligent AI
at least blizzard tries to compensate for their crappy programming by having the AI "cheat" on a lot of aspects
Some of you are trying to defend them over this ladder business. Just stop it.
Early bots for Quake would climb ladders (Reaper Bot). Enemies in SiN would climb ladders. Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 makes extensive use of ladders for how the infected get around the maps. The bots made for Counter Strike and Team Fortress all use ladders. I could go on and on and on. The only reason to not have working ladders could be from two things. Just doesn't fit with the design of the game world, or they're too lazy to pull it off.
Considering they're using an engine that is more advanced that the one Half Life 2 shipped with, and HL2's animations are 100% better, I'd say it's just a product of laziness.
Early bots for Quake would climb ladders (Reaper Bot). Enemies in SiN would climb ladders. Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 makes extensive use of ladders for how the infected get around the maps. The bots made for Counter Strike and Team Fortress all use ladders. I could go on and on and on. The only reason to not have working ladders could be from two things. Just doesn't fit with the design of the game world, or they're too lazy to pull it off.
Considering they're using an engine that is more advanced that the one Half Life 2 shipped with, and HL2's animations are 100% better, I'd say it's just a product of laziness.
It appears to me that almost everyone here is deriding them for it. And also, there are ladders in Fallout 3. Ever been to Rivet City? Does the game need to have ladders that can actually be climbed? No, I don't really think so. What is the matter with stairs, or ladders that lead to new cells? This is a silly thing to be complaining about I think. I can understand making cracks about the story or dialogue, but this? ...Beelzebud said:
It is how you explain it I think.maximaz said: