Your opinion is worthless
- Thread starter JustAShcookius
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TJQKA
Boomer Anarchist
Morgan_
Duckerz
The joke is that kind of game design is old and not used much anymore.
This isn't counting all the other new western cRPGs, tactical X-COM like games, and JRPGs that have released that use chance as a determination for success in actions that characters are directed to take by the player.
You probably mean in the massive AAA space? Yeah, no shit because these games don't have blockbuster appeal despite some of them still going further than their expected levels of success (Disco Elysium and Divinity: Original Sin II both come to mind).
But yeah it's not Bioshock and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, sorry about that. Please hang up and try again.
Dislike the meme if you want, but PoE is a terrible game. Also, no those games do not play the same as Fallout 1. I mean, Xcom also has the ability to miss, but not to the level of Fallout or even Morrowind. I don't know how else I can really explain it. If you don't want to call it old game design just call it bad game design. There are even mods in this community that address how the roll functions work in Fallout 1 and it's widely used.
You really take these kinds of things too seriously is the problem and this community often re-enforces that.
Seriously though, what mod is "widely used" here that rebalances the entire combat of Fallout?
Call it bad design all you want, I think you just don't know how to put numbers into a skill and then use that skill.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
PoE is a terrible game because a chick that had issues playing the OG Fallout said so.
Morgan_
Duckerz
How are you all even managing to respond this fast. High stakes at play.
And where is my comment??????
And where is my comment??????
Too late lmfao.
Seriously though what mod(s) are you talking about that completely change the combat calculations in Fallout 1 or 2 that we widely are using here? Please go on with your expertise on these. I've used Fixt for 1 and it didn't feel any different in what to expect from combat nor does the page even mention an alteration in that manner.
You can be upset that NMA will defend things like Fallout all you want but we like those types of RPGs. It'll change once we all die and the Generation Boomer 2.0 that comes after Zoomer, Alpha, Beta, and all that are the only ones left. Haha just kidding this forum will be internet dust.
Seriously though what mod(s) are you talking about that completely change the combat calculations in Fallout 1 or 2 that we widely are using here? Please go on with your expertise on these. I've used Fixt for 1 and it didn't feel any different in what to expect from combat nor does the page even mention an alteration in that manner.
You can be upset that NMA will defend things like Fallout all you want but we like those types of RPGs. It'll change once we all die and the Generation Boomer 2.0 that comes after Zoomer, Alpha, Beta, and all that are the only ones left. Haha just kidding this forum will be internet dust.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
People play old ass games they have played for twenty plus years modded. SHOCKER.
Morgan_
Duckerz
I don't have a hard time playing it it's just old and has it's issues.
I just post Fallout memes when I see them elsewhere. Didn't really expect it to turn into whatever this is.
Fixt. You can insinuate I'm dumb if it makes you feel better I just think Fallout 1 and Morrowind have their issues due to them being old. Icewind Dale didn't have the same gameplay issues na dneither did Divinity, or again, Xcom. It's just difficult to get right.
Seriously though, what mod is "widely used" here that rebalances the entire combat of Fallout?
Call it bad design all you want, I think you just don't know how to put numbers into a skill and then use that skill.
I just post Fallout memes when I see them elsewhere. Didn't really expect it to turn into whatever this is.
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1. Jumps into a debate about old vs new Fallout
2. Posts a meme shitting on old Fallout
3. Why are you now talking to me about this???
Also don't know what issue Fallout has with its dice rolls. Yeah it's a bit complicated but we aren't pulling out calculators and spreadsheets when we play. I pick up a weapon suited to my character's skills, I hover an enemy with it, notice how close or far I am, see if the chance to hit is bad or not. Voila. Quit drumming it up like it's some doctorate in mathematics dream game. You put on armor with higher value, you pick up gun which do shooty better, you realize maybe this gun is bad for your build or that sniper rifles do better far away (revolutionary idea!!!!!) and just play it. It's really, really not that complicated.
As for Morrowind, the way combat works is far less complicated than strategically planning out how to level non-major and non-minor skills to maximize attribute points on level up. Heck I didn't consider this stuff and when I wanted to level health my only option left was to use a spear to level that attribute up when I leveled up. Oh and I still beat the game fine. The only difficult part was the last DLC because enemies are just insane comparatively there.
You quite literally need to pick fights you can win and run from fights you cannot early game in both of these. You're a noob and a weakling. Later on, you'll become god. You don't fight 6 radscorpions with only a knife, no armor, and a single stimpack in Fallout 1 at level 1. You don't need complex math to figure that out.
2. Posts a meme shitting on old Fallout
3. Why are you now talking to me about this???
Also don't know what issue Fallout has with its dice rolls. Yeah it's a bit complicated but we aren't pulling out calculators and spreadsheets when we play. I pick up a weapon suited to my character's skills, I hover an enemy with it, notice how close or far I am, see if the chance to hit is bad or not. Voila. Quit drumming it up like it's some doctorate in mathematics dream game. You put on armor with higher value, you pick up gun which do shooty better, you realize maybe this gun is bad for your build or that sniper rifles do better far away (revolutionary idea!!!!!) and just play it. It's really, really not that complicated.
As for Morrowind, the way combat works is far less complicated than strategically planning out how to level non-major and non-minor skills to maximize attribute points on level up. Heck I didn't consider this stuff and when I wanted to level health my only option left was to use a spear to level that attribute up when I leveled up. Oh and I still beat the game fine. The only difficult part was the last DLC because enemies are just insane comparatively there.
You quite literally need to pick fights you can win and run from fights you cannot early game in both of these. You're a noob and a weakling. Later on, you'll become god. You don't fight 6 radscorpions with only a knife, no armor, and a single stimpack in Fallout 1 at level 1. You don't need complex math to figure that out.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
The joke is that little to nothing else is superior to that kind of design [for RPGs]; reason being that it works well on a PC from 1982 through 2022 without serious overhead; the alternative is to animate every possible success and failure that the PC, and every opponent can make, at any task in the game.
Dice rolls eliminate the need for —spelling it out to the player. No need to animate Geralt stumbling on a rock, or missing with his sword swing, and breaking it on a stone wall, or dropping the vial while mixing a potion; or adding too much of a reagent, or the wrong one, and then coughing up blood, or having entirely different attack animations for each and every unfamiliar weapon, ... it goes on for ever.
Dice simply abstract every action down to a simple success, or failure; usually even to the degree of that failure. The problem with RNG is not the age, or the unpredictable outcome, it's the player's irritation and refusal of accepting their character's incompetence and tough luck along with their proficiencies and good fortune. Even a professional locksmith drops their keys once in a while.
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Oh no, I have made a mistake in a video game!!
It's really this attitude that has lead to so many games being easy and hand holding. I appreciate things that don't waste my time but so much stuff is just shoehorned in to appease your brain to quickly move from every point of interest to another and minimize how often you fail.
Is it really the animations that upset people so much? I like the abstraction and I like RPGs.
It's really this attitude that has lead to so many games being easy and hand holding. I appreciate things that don't waste my time but so much stuff is just shoehorned in to appease your brain to quickly move from every point of interest to another and minimize how often you fail.
Is it really the animations that upset people so much? I like the abstraction and I like RPGs.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
It would seem to be the other way around... A failing roll (or too many of these; some arbitrary number per player) illicits, "How could they [ I;
] miss (or miss twice!) at point blank!?", where as the animation of the PC breaking a lock pick, or stumbling on some random rock model on the ground —with physics applied— that gets kicked once in a while... his foot lands on that and he trips on it... that explains the failure due to extreme (wasteful) physical explanation that took someone hours to create, rather than just note the action as a failed skill roll.
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No one has ever missed a shot at point blank ever in history according to anti-oldheads.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Indeed.
- Gun jammed
- Bloody trigger finger slipped
- Tripped
- Were surprised
- Choked on their gum
- No ammo left, or forgot to load the gun; or load all cylinders of a revolver
- Didn't maintain the weapon/ didn't clean the dirt
- Didn't realize that the target was so thin under that bulky coat
- The bullet hit something in the target's pocket
- Bullet nicked the target's ear on a headshot; so what
They just don't like making mistakes, or having bad luck put them in a bind.
They also often believe that one cannot miss twice @95%, or make critical blunders.
This stuff really happens:
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Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Only idiots make these memes and miss the context of why it can even happen in the first place. And plenty of games still use chance to do anything based on stats, so i don't know where this thing of not being really used anymore comes from.
Also, this doesn't happen in Xcom? There's literally a meme gif of someone having their weapon literally jammed into the model of an enemy and missing with like 90% chance.
Fallout 1's manual
Section 5
"Your chance to hit is based on the appropriate weapon skill and modified by the range, light level, armor, cover your target has, and if the attack is targeted, the location you are trying to hit."
Honestly, I can't see this being more complex than AD&D... people still struggle to understand THAC0 because it's unintuitive which many video games still used.
And before anyone says DT and DR are too confusing, New Vegas used it too.
Section 5
"Your chance to hit is based on the appropriate weapon skill and modified by the range, light level, armor, cover your target has, and if the attack is targeted, the location you are trying to hit."
For ranged weapons, the distance between you and your target is critical. The closer you are to the target, the better the chance to hit. Your Perception will drastically modify the final to hit penalty or bonus for range. If you are closer than your Perception in meters (8 Perception is 7 meters or less, for example), you will actually get a bonus to your to hit chance. If the target is farther away than your Perception in meters (9 meters or more, according to our other example), then you will get a penalty on your to hit chance. If the target is exactly your Perception away from you, there is no modifier. If your target is in the dark, they will be harder to see. Targets that are hard to see are also harder to hit. The light level of the target will therefore modify your chance to hit. If the target is in the shadows, there will be a penalty for attacking it. Partial darkness is a -10% to hit, medium darkness is a -20% to hit, and full darkness is a -40% to hit penalty. The light around your character represents your ability to see closer objects better in the dark. It does not modify an opponent’s chance to hit you in combat. Your opponents are subject to the standard darkness modifiers.
Armor provides protection against the target actually being hit by deflecting the attack. Attacks that are deflected (or bounced, for really heavy armor) do no damage to the target. The percentage that the chance to hit is modified by is called Armor Class (AC). The AC is subtracted from the chance to hit. Higher ACs are therefore better. Anything over a 20% AC is really good. See the Armor section on page 5—12 for more details. Cover is considered as any obstacle between you and your target. Other people, barrels to duck behind, trees, and walls are all considered cover. Cover will modify the to hit chance as a negative penalty. You will never have a better chance to hit your target if there is cover between you and it. The amount of the penalty depends on the cover. A barrel may be very little, another person a little more, and a wall may have a really big modifier. Targeted attacks are discussed below, but they all have some sort of negative to hit penalty based on the location being targeted. Trying to hit someone in the eyes is more difficult than attacking their left arm (or tentacle, or whatever).
Armor Class. The first function of armor is to prevent the wearer from being hit by the attack. This is known as Armor Class (or AC). The higher the AC, the better the armor. The AC subtracts from the to hit chance of the attacker. Example: you are wearing light leather armor, with an AC of 15%. Your attacker has a base to hit chance of 50% (assuming all the other modifiers have been taken into account). His final to hit chance is only (50% - 15%) 35%.
Damage Threshold. The second step is blocking the damaging energy of the attack. This is known as the Damage Threshold (or DT). The DT is subtracted from the hit point damage of the attack. Example: Assume the above attacker succeeds. His attack does 20 points of damage (ouch!). You have a DT of 4. The first four points of his attack are stopped, with only 16 (still ouch!) getting through the first phase of your armor.
Damage Resistance. After the DT, the Damage Resistance (or DR) of your armor takes over. This represents the ability of armor to slow down and disperse the damaging energy. DR is expressed as a percentage. This is the percent of the remaining damage that is nullified. Example: The 16 points from the above attack are still coming. You have a DR of 20%. The damage is reduced by (16 x .2) 3.2 points of damage (round down), or 3 points. The final attack does only 13 points of damage, which is a heck of lot better than the initial 20 points.
Damage Threshold. The second step is blocking the damaging energy of the attack. This is known as the Damage Threshold (or DT). The DT is subtracted from the hit point damage of the attack. Example: Assume the above attacker succeeds. His attack does 20 points of damage (ouch!). You have a DT of 4. The first four points of his attack are stopped, with only 16 (still ouch!) getting through the first phase of your armor.
Damage Resistance. After the DT, the Damage Resistance (or DR) of your armor takes over. This represents the ability of armor to slow down and disperse the damaging energy. DR is expressed as a percentage. This is the percent of the remaining damage that is nullified. Example: The 16 points from the above attack are still coming. You have a DR of 20%. The damage is reduced by (16 x .2) 3.2 points of damage (round down), or 3 points. The final attack does only 13 points of damage, which is a heck of lot better than the initial 20 points.
Honestly, I can't see this being more complex than AD&D... people still struggle to understand THAC0 because it's unintuitive which many video games still used.
And before anyone says DT and DR are too confusing, New Vegas used it too.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
What makes the argument of chance to hit even more bad is that Fallout 3 used it since the character's chance to hit was based on their weapon skill and other factors. So the same game people were claiming they were glad that Bethesda removed that yucky isometric turn based with its awful chance to hit things used the same mechanic for hitting things.
So i guess missing a shot at point blank range in a FPS is fine, but as soon it's on a turn based game it's bad? Okay then.
So i guess missing a shot at point blank range in a FPS is fine, but as soon it's on a turn based game it's bad? Okay then.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
IIRC, VATS aims from the hip, so head shots can be blocked by low covering walls and other obstructions despite a clear shot at the head.
It's vestigial RPG baggage that is meant to abstract weapon accuracy—but used in a game where the Player usually aims the weapon instead of the PC—for some bizarre reason.
It's vestigial RPG baggage that is meant to abstract weapon accuracy—but used in a game where the Player usually aims the weapon instead of the PC—for some bizarre reason.