What was the Funniest Argument You've had with a Bethesda Apologist?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by FlashBash64, May 13, 2016.

  1. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    When are kids going to understand that Fallout 3 was not even remotely dark and gloomy, and New Vegas beat it by a square mile in that contest.
     
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  2. SquiglyContiello

    SquiglyContiello It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 3, 2018
    When they realize that ghouls killing emotionless NPCs is equivalent to Duke Nukem killing and pissing on a boss.
     
  3. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Saying that Fallout 3 is better than NV, because in 3 people are stupid enough to live in shanty town built around nuclear bomb after 2 centuries is like saying that Sid Meyer's Civ should have all research options locked, because it's much more realistic.
     
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  4. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    I'd like to think that as they get older they'll appreciate New Vegas more.


    Otherwise this video will suffice.

     
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  5. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    I blame the fact that Bethesda keeps emphasizing the fresh post apocalypse aspect of the games rather than the post-post apocalypse that the setting reached by the current timeline of the games.
     
  6. FalloutIsMyDrug

    FalloutIsMyDrug Former Fo3 Lover(converted)

    Sep 29, 2016
    Is there something wrong with liking more apocalyptic post-apoc? So what if this person likes a more gloomy atmosphere? Are people not allowed to like something just because you like something else better? I really don't get the hate that post is getting. It is one of the more respectable and well thought out posts like it that I've seen. If you actually read the post you would see that the person agrees that New Vegas is a better game. Sure they mistook gloominess for realism, but the opinions are about that person's taste.
     
  7. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 9, 2017
    I think the real problem here isn't that he likes the post-apoclyptic themeing, it's that he wants the world to be that way 200 years after the bombs dropped. The biggest problem with Fallout 3 is that it isn't set, maybe 50, 60 years after the bombs fell. Well that and non of your choices matter and your involvment in the plot is irrelvent (this story would have played out exactly as it unfolded if you never left the Vault, only it would be Sarah Lyons that would have retrieved the GECK and not gotten caught as she'd have the Lyon's Prdie watching her back, and then once the Enclave was routed she'd activate the purifier).
     
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  8. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I didn't participate in criticizing that person's post, but after I read it I noticed that their opinion is based in a lot of things that are not true in the games.
    I for once don't care if people like Fallout 3 or even 4 more than the classics or FNV. But my brain shows alarm signs when people use things that are not true to base their opinions on. It makes me believe that for some reason they used their own imagination to blur the actual games, changing things so they will like and accept those games more than if they just "saw" what the game is showing them all the time.
    For example:
    • When you go out into the wasteland in FO3 it’s like hell, settlements barley surviving
      • Settlements are surviving in FO3 pretty well apart from Big Town, they have survived for decades without any change because they are so secure for some reason.
      • They have unlimited food supplies from somewhere, they have water from somewhere, mostly radiated water but many people live to their old age only drinking that water. Tenpenny Tower even has purified water.
      • Places like Girdershade (where only two people live and is right next to the largest Raider base in the game) and Republic of Dave (where only 5 adults and a few small kids live, only have a flimsy chain-link fence to protect them and is situated right next to a Deathclaw breeding ground) are safe and survive without any problems at all.
    • Wasteland era running rampant dying from super mutants crowding D.C.
      • No settlement apart from Big Town has any problems with Super Mutants, including the only settlement in the Mall. Underworld residents even prefer Super Mutants to the BoS because the Super Mutants leave them alone.
    • It’s like Fallout 3 is just what’s left of civilization, no rebuilding.
      • There is rebuilding but after they rebuilt they just stopped rebuilding anything else because they got safety (or something) and not because it is too dangerous.
      • Big Town was rebuilt by people who became adult and got kicked out of Little Lampight, Arefu was built after the bombs, same with Megaton, Paradise Falls, Canterbury Commons, Rivet City, Underworld, GNR Radio Station, Evergreen Mills, Republic of Dave, Girdershade, Andale, Tenpenny Tower, Oasis, etc.
    • Cannibalism
      • It has Andale, where six people are cannibals.
      • FNV has an entire casino owned and operated by a cannibal tribe, that is trying to go back to their roots (and the player can help or stop that from happening).
    • Tons of slavery
      • There is Paradise Falls with many slavers and the player can get a weapon to enslave others
      • FNV has an entire enourmous faction that relies on slave labor. Not only are their surviving fallen enemies turned into slave, but everyone in that faction is a slave... Caesar's Legion.
    • Mass extermination (The Pitt DLC, Megaton being blown up, completing the tenpenny Tower quest by having every resident (Spoiler) murdered by ghouls or letting the ghouls live only to find out they chopped everyone up and killed them.
      • FNV has the bitter Springs massacre, has the special ending where the player joins Elijah and kills everything in the mojave using the fog, has the Lonesome road option to nuke both NCR and Caesars Legion, destruction of the BoS chapter, help the Powder gangers kill everyone in Goodsprings and take over the town, ranger stations massacred by Caesar's Legion, Camp Searchlight radioactive massacre, the massacre and crucifixion of Nipton's residents and visitors, the player can get a quest from the Legion to destroy Camp Forlorn Hope, the eradication of tribes in Honest Hearts, etc.
    • Every settlement I went to in FO3 was all about staying alive or something dark happening like Andale.
      • Andale is the only settlement with anything dark happening in FO3, and like I mentioned in the first point, no settlement besides Big Town is "trying" to survive. They are all safe and have plenty of food and water and no one comments on how unsafe they feel... In fact many people in the settlements say how safe and lucky they feel living in there.
     
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  9. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander A Smooth-Skin

    Dec 6, 2016
    Not really. Despite what the introduction says, and having an established economy, solid trade system, a new society etc. I can not see Fallout 1 as post-post-apocalypse. There are those thousands of people around the country who went to school, ate apple pie, set off firecrackers on July 4, watched baseball game that saw in firsthand the atomic hell. Old customs and values continue to endure. More like the ending of this post apocalypse era.

    Fallout 2 is other history.

    Which one has the best ambiance? Few will disagree that it is Fallout 1.
    Which one of them CONCEITUALLY I find the most interesting? Post-post. Simple because there are not many stories like that. I can only remember Adventure Time and Logan´s Run right now.
     
  10. FalloutIsMyDrug

    FalloutIsMyDrug Former Fo3 Lover(converted)

    Sep 29, 2016
    Megaton has a live atom bomb in the center of town and a strange man who solicits you to set it off. Arefu has a "vampire" problem and many of the townspeople are dead. The Republic of Dave is ruled by a misogynistic, self-centered, self-appointed despot. Little Lamplight kicks out members that become adults, dooming them to the wastes. Underworld faces constant discrimination and murderous indifference from the BoS. Big Town lives under the constant fear of Super Mutant attacks and kidnappings. Paradise Falls is a slaver town with child slaves in the pen. Finally, Oasis is full of nut jobs who worship Harold and misinterpret his words to forward their crazy agenda. I actually find that most settlements have something dark going on.

    Other than that, I very much agree.
     
  11. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Not trying to argue here (sometimes people get mistaken when I type stuff like this), just trying to explain why I don't see much "darkness" in those examples, based on what the game tells and shows us (just offering my point of view):

    Megaton has a bomb because people build the damn town around it on their own free will. They knew it could go off at any time and still choose to make the town there. I don't see anything dark in that, only stupidity.

    Arefu doesn't have a vampire problem. The Family staged the "attack" so they could smuggle Ian West out of the town unnoticed. So they could teach Ian to control his hunger for human flesh.
    Their "vampire problem" is no problem at all, it is actually the Family being nice and saving Ian West by teaching him how to control himself. Also only Ian's parents are dead and they were killed by Ian, not anyone from the Family. One of the Family's members did kill the Brahmin, but the leader of the family didn't approve of this and is really mad about it.
    This problem is actually people being nice and helping eachother, that is why the player can just explain what happened to the people of Arefu and can broke an agreement that would benefit both Arefu and the Family via mutual assistance, because both Arefu and the Family are "good" guys.

    Republic of Dave is ruled by a democratic elected President. There is nothing showing he is misogynistic or a despot. He has two wives, but treat them both well enough that both are happy living there and not only are happy but one is really in awe and love with him. He is also not a despot since he is not violent and doesn't hold his presidency by the means of using his power to oppress. People are actually happy with his presidency and accept it willingly and without complaints.
    We know he is not self-apointed either. This is shown to be false in case the player tampers with the election and Dave loses. He doesn't enforce his presidency by use of force or violence, he actually resigns himself that he lost and that he is not the president anymore. He then leaves to found another settlement. As a note, he even mentions that it used to be a Kingdom (Kingdom of Tom), but he is nicer than that, so he allows free, democratic elections. He could still be king if he was such a despot.

    Little Lamplight kids kicks adults so they move to Big Town (and not to die in the wastes) and they also believe big Town is this really awesome place where adults party all day and live a fulfilling and fun "big life". None of the kids believe that they will die in the wastes once they leave Little Lamplight.

    Underworld doesn't have any problems with the BoS, BoS do not go to Underworld. The residents even say they live there because no one bothers them there. And some have been living there since the bombs fell. Ghouls have a problem with the BoS because it shoots ghouls at sight, they don't differentiate from feral or normal ghouls. But the BoS does not go to Underworld to kill or annoy ghouls and they don't actively go around looking for and murdering ghouls either, they only shoot ghouls that go near the BoS patrols or their bases.

    Big Town is the only settlement with real "big" problems in the capital wasteland (like I mentioned in my previous post). But they could realistically move.
    They say they can't move because they wouldn't survive in the wastes. Although this seems very silly because they manage to survive the trip from Little Lamplight, which is in a quite wild and dangerous area of the map. They could also move to Arefu since it is only two "map squares" away from Big Town (it is really close, from Little Lamplight to Big Town one needs to travel seven "map squares"), they could also just go straight to Arefu instead of Big Town, Arefu is on the way of Big Town from Little Lamplight (six "map squares").
    Megaton is 4-5 "map squares" from Big Town, so it's not that far either.
    Anyway... I got derailed. Big Town is the only settlement with actual serious problems in FO3.

    Paradise Falls is a slaver town with kids in the pens. It is supposed to be dark. But nowhere does it show that those kids (or any other slave) are mistreated. Yes, being in a pen and lose your freedom is really bad, don't get me wrong, but for slaves they seem to be very well treated, which makes it a bit less dark.
    But what makes it actually lose quite a bit of it's "darkness" is when one realizes that no one else in the capital wasteland has slaves. No settlement have slaves working and no character besides Eulogy Jones has slave servants (not even Tenpenny Tower, where it would make a lot of sense to have slaves serving the rich snobs). The game could have pulled the darker side of slaves if it showed how some "owners" horribly treat their slaves, how slavery and slaves are a commodity in the Capital Wasteland and nothing more than objects or possessions, etc.

    About Oasis. Sometimes the well-being of the many takes precedence over the well being on the individual. Even Harold agrees with this if you decide to keep him alive:
    Harold, finding a new reason to live, replies that he was selfish to want to kill himself, and then asks Bob if he agrees. Harold finally says that he is at peace with himself and, for the first time in a long time, Harold is finally happy.
    So in the end this darkness is actually the "light" and most positive solution. The one that benefits everyone, including Harold. Instead of one (or two depending on the point of view) living being losing his life uselessly and stopping helping the capital wasteland to have more natural flora and fauna (we can hear birds chirp in Oasis).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  12. FalloutIsMyDrug

    FalloutIsMyDrug Former Fo3 Lover(converted)

    Sep 29, 2016
    Your counter argument is impressively fleshed out as always. I don't have the patience to be so thorough, so props to you. I suppose I was grasping at straws with many of those settlements, although I would say that they all do contain some measure of darkness. I would also say that any dark story in Fallout 3 is undermined by the poor writing and voice acting. It's obviously hard to establish a dark tone in an urban setting when you can't take the characters seriously, but I can see where Bethesda tried. Maybe if they would swallow their pride and hire some writing talent they could make something truly immersive.
     
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  13. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Yes, it is the big flaw of Bethesda's games. If only they would get better writers, I have no doubt that they would make greater (and I guess better) games.
    Their games are action, adventure with RPG elements. But they always neglect the writing. If they were more involved with how and why things happen, it would be really great for games and players.
    We do see some improvement in some parts of Fallout 4 in terms of writing, but then we also see a lot of worst writing than in Fallout 3. It is really disheartening.
     
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  14. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Are people not allowed to poke fun and disagree? I read the post and I still ultimately disagree with the points in it. Fallout 3 is not more dark and brutal, in fact more often it's doing it for the sake of doing it.

    Take Nipton from New Vegas. Crucifixions, beheadings, people being burned alive. These have happened for a reason, a fucked up one at that, but you learn why it's happened. It's a message to the NCR, saying "We can strike anywhere and you can't stop us", but also to anyone outside the Legion. It's a power display, a gruesome one at that.

    Now take any number of the locations in Fallout 3 where there are bloodied skeletons and bodies hanged up everywhere, like at Raider locations. It's just there to say "Look at how evil the Raiders are!" Raiders in previous Fallouts weren't exactly nice but they were still human and banded together, they weren't all raving psychos on drugs.

    Perhaps what he meant was New Vegas seemed more optimistic compared to the setting of Fallout 3, and the only reason I'd agree with that is because NV is better written and the world has been developed better.
     
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  15. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    I'd also like to point out that on top of what's already been said: New Vegas actually explores dark and mature themes, Fallout 3 just assumes the player's will find it dark just because.

    There is literally a quest in Fallout New Vegas to convince a rape victim to go in to counselling because squadron believe she's showing symptoms of PTSD, there is a note about a pregnant woman being sold in to slavery stating that extra will be paid once the child is born, snooping through the slaver's records in North Vegas Square suggests that Cook-Cook has been buying lots of children from them.

    If you take a moment to dig under the surface of New Vegas, you find it's as dark and gloomy as you'd expect from a warzone like the Mojave.

    Fallout 3 on the other hand just throws you in a grey spooky environment, and throws mad max style raiders and slavers everywhere, and assume that, by virtue of itself, is enough to make the series dark and gloomy, proceed to never actually go into detail about dark themes and then make quests where you fight superheroes and shit. It becomes a happy-go-lucky game with no darkness underneath, with the dark themes assumed because it just so happens to be post-apocalyptic.
     
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  16. SquiglyContiello

    SquiglyContiello It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 3, 2018
    Metro and STALKER are darker than any Fallout game imo, that doesnt mean that they're better tho
    Most writers think that achieving dark and realistic writing means adding killing and people struggling just for the sake of it.
    New Vegas on the other hand goes into depth with explaining the effects of the apocalypse on the citizens and in general giving them actual development which makes its characters more realistic unlike 3 which has a some guy who wants to detonate a bomb for some reason or a father that "cares" for you by ignoring you.
     
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  17. CaptJ

    CaptJ The Rival of Roquefort Hall

    Jan 19, 2016
    It is like dark humor except the part about it not being funny.

    @Risewild
    Maybe because everything in FO3 is so blatantly in your face? Or maybe just not playing FO:NV? This reminds me about RazorFist's review of FO:NV which he said that you can't talk to NPCs in FO:NV and it was step down from FO3's dialogue system.
     
  18. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander A Smooth-Skin

    Dec 6, 2016
    Wait, what? lol
     
  19. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    N-nani?!
     
  20. CaptJ

    CaptJ The Rival of Roquefort Hall

    Jan 19, 2016
    I'm assuming that you are talking about RazorFist's review and not my clumsy wording. Well I guess that I should give proof.

    If it is the other thing, I meant that people see those things in FO3 because FO3 made a song & dance about it. People didn't see those things in FO:NV because they play it/play it enough to know. I cite RazorFist's review as an example of not actually knowing much about the game.

    Edit:
    The same thing as the above. God, I hope that it isn't the shitty wording.