Aliens Colonial Marines - saddest shit ever?

[mobucks]

Right on bro. Gorman's face when all the marines heart monitors start flatlining is like the best shit ever to happen in a sci-fi movie.

 

[aenemic]

and just as Angry Joe says in his review of AvP3, the movies suck mainly due to the lack of the colonial marines (and being in space or an alien world). they managed to reduce the awesome AvP franchise to lame ass run-of-the-mill b-horror.

Eh, com on! You cant be serious about that if you call your self REALLY a fan to the Alien franchise!

The AvP movies sucked for many reasons. Colonial marines have been not one of them. Not a strong reason though. Would it have been a better service to the fans if AvP was in space with Aliens, Predators and marines? Maybe. But it would still have sucked because someone thought its enough for an good movie to have bland replicable characters that get killed around every corner. Aliens =/= SAW.

Alien movies actually are seen for the Xenomorphs, but they are remembered for their characters! Like Ripley, Ash, Dallas, Lambert etc. from the first movie, the Marines from the second movie. The Particularly the cast for the Second movie was so well done that its almost a miracle. Hard to find such good acting in movies. You really hate Burke for what he is and what he did in Aliens. Hell even Alien 3 wasn't THAT bad thx to some of the characters and because Fincher somehow managed to squeeze the best out of the shit issues he had to deal with - I mean the original idea was to have the movie set on a completely wooden planet filled with monks ... when they canceled that script, the director quit and they got Fincher. While half of the movie was kinda done ...

Everything after Alien 3 was bad with the characters and choices. I don't even think that Ripley had that well written lines in Alien 4. Even though she was easily the best in the cast. Though that doesn't say a lot. The plot was stupid, the dialogues flat.

And AvP as movies have been even worse. Even if they had Colonial marines it would still have sucked. Xenomorph movies can only work if the characters feel human and have some depth. You cant tell me people did not feel with Vasquez and Gorman in the shaft!

Not really following your reasoning here.

First of all, while I'm a huge fan of all, I do like to keep the Alien, Predator and AvP franchises separate. That simply means that what makes a good Alien movie doesn't necessarily make a good AvP movie.

That said, in what way does colonial marines or not have anything to do with SAW-like deaths and shallow characters? You even said yourself that the colonial marines in Aliens were great characters.

The AvP movies both had big problems besides the fact that they were set on earth with no badass marines to shoot at the monsters. But that was the main problem for me. Had they had at least been brainless sci-fi action movies, I would have enjoyed them a hell of a lot more. The AvP I know, from the games, is about Marines, Aliens and Predators. And that's the setting I love. But instead, they made something a lot more ordinary and lame with it.

But obviously they would have been better movies if they had good acting, story and interesting fleshed out characters. The two aren't in any way mutually exclusive.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Because you cant just reduce a film with Xenomorphs to a mere "action" flick and gore fest which AvP as movie was. And that is what I see in SAW. I doubt that many people watch the SAW movies because it has such an ... awesome and interesting written plot, and before someone mentions it, yes I ve seen SAW, at least the first 2 movies, and if you're not much in to this kind of "horror" then it really doesn't offer anything else. Typical splatter stuff. Thats O.K. for me. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean its bad. But at the end of the day in both AvP movies ... thats all you have. Splatter, dead bodies, Preds and Xenomorphs killing humans left and right in the most gruesome ways. Just that neither Alien nor Aliens have been that much about the violence. Tension is complete foreign word for the directors of both AvP movies.

And sorry, I know how this sounds, but if you see AvP as separate worlds then I dare to call you not a real fan. Yes thats how bad those movies have been. You have 2 very great franchises which deserve a lot of respect for what they are. Aliens and Predator. Mixing those though the way how they did it ... its clear that it is not just enough to have bad ass characters inside. You need characters with personality which even Predator as movie has. That it can work to get both together has been shown in countless comics.

I told you, people watch the movies because of the awesome creature (aliens, predator) but they stay because of the actors. You cant sympathize really with the xenomorphs or the predator here, regardless how much we like them as creatures. I mean just take a moment how many scenes in both Aliens and Predator didn't even involved a lot of action but actually "tension". When Dutch and his team finds the missing commando force? All dead? Or when the Indian just stares in to the jungle freaking out everyone? How you NEVER see his death? Just him standing on the fallen tree? And then next you hear him scream? No action involved here! Everything in your head.

Same for Aliens when the marines enter the hive. This scene works most trough Gorman and his great acting. And it only works because we get to know the characters, their interaction. The meal in the Sulaco at the start, Cameron made this the last scene he filmed. He gave the crews months of time to get to know each other and then they made this scene in the cantina pretty much the beginning of the movie. Hence why the characters seem to act so natural.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXKJdjFPF4[/youtube]

Even if AvP was a simple action flick, like Predator or Aliens which bot hare not very complicated movies it would not have worked with "bad ass" colonial marines if they lack character and personality, good acting.

*Now that I come to think about it, that is a lot of efford by cameron and his team, all the training and real life counceling by real military personal just to have it all for a 5-10 min scene where most of the marines will die. Heh. No surprise AvP movie sucked so much. Everyone was in there only for the money.

 

[aenemic]

Dude, I'm not sure if I'm bad at explaining what I mean or if you're just refusing to see my point. But it feels like you're arguing with made-up statements by me.

So let me just rephrase everything and try to put it real simple: the characters and acting of a movie have little to nothing to do with the setting of the movie. A movie with bad acting and lame characters will obviously not be as good as a movie with good acting and interesting characters. No matter the acting and writing, an AvP movie with colonial marines set in space would have been a lot more fun to me than the AvP movie we actually got. OK?

Not really sure what to make of this: "if you see AvP as separate worlds then I dare to call you not a real fan". But if you're suggesting I'm not a real fan because I don't necessarily judge the Alien movies on the same premises as I judge the AvP stuff, then fine by me. However, I do consider myself more of a fan of all three franchises for being able to keep the stories separate and judge them based on different things.

 

[Crni Vuk]

in which way would it have been a better movie with colonial marines?

 

[aenemic]

It would be more in line with the games.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

But do you really want to see a movie that basically is trying to recreate a game rather than trying to tell a story?

Look, Aliens Vs Predator worked out in the first Dark Horse mini series and a couple of AVP games (AVP1, AVP2, AVP Arcade).

But honestly, this was never intended to be taken so far.
It all started with an Easter Egg in Predator 2 and we have seen some fun takes on the concept but it should never have gone as far actually making a movie of it.

Somewhere the producers have made a big mistake of making the audience believe that an Alien movie needs Colonial Marines, or be a major action flick in order to be good.
It was fun and new in Aliens but it should not be seen as the template of what such a movie should be like.

Truth be told I think it would be better if the Alien franchise was left alone for a while, no one including Ridley Scott seems to know what to do with it anymore.

 

[TorontoReign]

The best news out of this is that Duke Nukem Begins will be started on now. Can't say I'm surprised that this sucked. I had a feeling it would. They just don't get it I guess.

Don't forget the novels though Dutch Ghost. Those were good too huh?

 

[Walpknut]

So, you are telling me a Tie in game of a movie franchise that hasn't had any good installements in years sucked? huh, wasn't expecting THAT.

 

[aenemic]

But do you really want to see a movie that basically is trying to recreate a game rather than trying to tell a story?

What? I never said that. Just forget it, alright.

But yeah, I agree that we could've done without the movies completely.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

But do you really want to see a movie that basically is trying to recreate a game rather than trying to tell a story?

What? I never said that. Just forget it, alright.

But yeah, I agree that we could've done without the movies completely.

I didn't mean to imply that you said that. I just got that feeling and wanted to know if that is how you felt about it.

Problem is, an AVP movie with all three parties; xenomorphs, colonial marines, and predators will always feel like Aliens with Predator tacked on.

I am pretty sure the action kiddies want to see it but the result would not be something really memorable.

 

[Crni Vuk]

*Eh sorry if I come of like a jerk, not meant like that or to offend anyone. Kinda getting always emotional when it comes to the frachise. There is just so much shit in all of the Alien stuff right now, its not funny anymore where AvP is canon, the Xenomorphs some kind of weapon made by the Elephant aliens and so on. I never understood this idea that EVERYTHING had to be explained somehow. I mean we have been happy in the past without knowing that the Force was because of some super small aliens in some blood or what ever bullshit Lukas came up with, or that no one knew what the Xenomorphs have been.

Truth be told I think it would be better if the Alien franchise was left alone for a while, no one including Ridley Scott seems to know what to do with it anymore.

Well if we judge it all based on Prometheus then I dont think even Ridley could do it justice right now. Maybe it was not all his fault (the guy responsible for the script also fucked up Lost ...)

But seriously, from the story and acting Prometheus was not on the best side.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Hello Crni Vuk,

I understand where you are getting from with your disappointments regarding the Alien franchise.
Personally I like the idea that the xenomorphs are genetically tailored weapons created by the Pilots to 'terraform' world and used as weapons against each other, but I always felt that stuff like this was better left to be explored in comics/books, computer games and RPG sessions, it is not something that needed to be answered on the movie screen.

Let everyone make his or her own idea and don't bother with convoluted explanations.

Unfortunate it has become rather a trend, everything needs to be explained or answered, sometimes in the most ridiculous way possible that I sometimes wonder if they went looking for the person with, going through an entire screening process of other people with crackpot theories until they finally found him, and then made him a writer.

(the guy responsible for the script also fucked up Lost ...)

Damon Lindelof is a hack, and so are Alex Kurtzman, Roberto Orci and J.J.Abrams and I wonder what the hell is wrong with the people in Hollywood who think these people are talented writers and directors.
Characterization is shit and they would not know how to write science fiction if it bit them in the ass and then ran around them yelping "I'm Science Fiction, I'm Science Fiction".

 

[Crni Vuk]

exactly, the main problem I had with Prometheus. The plot is even somewhat bearable (albeit Ridley must think his audience is quit stupid ...) but all those unbelievable characters with their rather stupid dialogue and actions. David was probably one of the characters with the better perfomance - although he is showing for an android a bit strange behaviour sometimes.

Seriously, scientists (at least thats what they call them self) visit an completely foreign planet and and ship. And they have NOTHING better to do then to remove their helmet? Wtf. The guy who also made the map of the ship gets lost ... awesome.

Meh. I guess Aliens Colonial marines really is in the right club ... its like the people with talent left the Alien franchise a long time ago.

 

[pipboy-x11]

So another movie-based video game sucks ass?

What a surprise! It never happened in the past! It's almost like... I don't know... a game-based movie being a piece of crap!

Milking a franchise over and over again can't produce a pile of shit, you know. Like never ever.




Speaking about aliens and predator both in the same movie or a game - it was totally absurd from the start. I've got a nice idea - let's add pirates there, since, you know, everything is better with pirates. And ninjas too.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

*Now that I come to think about it, that is a lot of efford by cameron and his team, all the training and real life counceling by real military personal just to have it all for a 5-10 min scene where most of the marines will die.

James Cameron may be an asshole but his talent can't be disputed.

But honestly, this was never intended to be taken so far.
It all started with an Easter Egg in Predator 2 and we have seen some fun takes on the concept but it should never have gone as far actually making a movie of it.

Why not? The aliens and the predators fit together, making a good movie with them is far from impossible.

 

[pipboy-x11]

Why not? The aliens and the predators fit together, making a good movie with them is far from impossible.

Dear sir,

Could you please kindly explain me how the aliens and predators "fit together", for heavens sake? Should someone make a movie about Enterprise fighting off TIE fighters as well? Captain Picard fighting Darth Vader?

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Why not? The aliens and the predators fit together, making a good movie with them is far from impossible.

Dear sir,

Could you please kindly explain me how the aliens and predators "fit together", for heavens sake? Should someone make a movie about Enterprise fighting off TIE fighters as well? Captain Picard fighting Darth Vader?

The aliens and the predators fit the same way that aliens and humans do: one is an animal, the other an...uhm...intelligent being that uses tools and weapons. And the Predator's tech style doesn't look out of place compared to the human's, it's not mismateched like Star Wars-Star Trek.

Why do you think they don't fit, exactly?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Speaking about aliens and predator both in the same movie or a game - it was totally absurd from the start. I've got a nice idea - let's add pirates there, since, you know, everything is better with pirates. And ninjas too.

The first 2 AvP games though have been a blast, which also shows that it can be done. Of course each of the game have been awesome for their own reason.

AvP1 didnt really had much of a story, but back then in the early 90s, which shooter had any? Imagine that, in Alien vs Predator 1 if you played the game as far as I remember you could only save your game like 2 or 3 times in every map. The game was very dark, and you have been always alone. And the game wasnt really easy.

AvP2 was playing a lot more focus on the story and it had some nice stuff, again for its time. Some memorable characters, a long and somewhat interesting storyline.

The aliens and the predators fit the same way that aliens and humans do: one is an animal, the other an...uhm...intelligent being that uses tools and weapons. And the Predator's tech style doesn't look out of place compared to the human's, it's not mismateched like Star Wars-Star Trek.

Why do you think they don't fit, exactly?

I have to agree outside of comics and games eventually Aliens and Predators doesnt really mix well.

Why is that? Well both are Science Fiction but each offers a different experience. You might get the Impression with Aliens that it is about guns, marines blowing stuff up and so on. But actually Aliens was about Marines geting their asses kicked. The characters play a much more important role. So its an horror movie first and then some action movie.

Predator is a bit different. The story and character development here doesnt play any role at all - doesnt mean the characters are flat! Or boring. They simply aim for a different kind of horror.

Aliens and Predator might seem to have a lot in common. But thats not true. The Movie Predator would loose a lot if you throw in some generic jungle monster for example which can use camouflage and is hunting down random soldiers. The creature makes the movie interesting and the great acting by the people in the movie is doing the rest.

With Alien movies the Xenomorph isnt even playing a that huge role. Obviously its an important part of the movie. But the interaction and conflict and character development in Alien and Aliens is a lot more believable and authentic compared to Predator which is rathe an action movie first and an horror movie later.

To say this, Predator is an typical Arnold Movie. A good one that is.

 

[pipboy-x11]

Why do you think they don't fit, exactly?

Because mankind meets the Predators in 20th century. They've landed on Earth.

And the Aliens are from 23rd century or something like that. They've been found on a remote planet by some Terran spaceship. Until then, humanity has never heard about them.

They are from different universes. Putting them in the same basket is like putting Doom marine with BFG-9000 into Skyrim.


(Duke Nukem is the only exception - he would totally rock anywhere, even in Skyrim, chewing gum and kicking dragons' asses)