Asbestos Religion Thread

[maximaz]

Also: I believe in Zeus. I don't even understand why others stopped believing in Him. Why is that? Is that because someone had proof that Zeus didn't exist, proof I don't even know about?

 

[Crni Vuk]

The idea of free will is like the concept of chance. It doesn't really exist, but in most scenarios we don't have the capacity of extrapolation for this to be apparent. Therefore for most intents and purposes, it's easier to assume it does exist. .

Because it does ?

Granted. I agree with you when you say that only very little is "really" choice or will. But it is there. It exists. There are situations where you can decide to stop and help or or just walking away passing by. It's not rocket science really.

 

[Moe Canibo]

Granted. I agree with you when you say that only very little is "really" choice or will. But it is there. It exists. There are situations where you can decide to stop and help or or just walking away passing by. It's not rocket science really.

But your decision of helping or walking away is entirely conditioned by the past factors. Hass did a great post about in on page before. My lame engrish can't do me justice, sorry.

 

[Yoshi525]

@Wuk: I know what you are saying, but in defacto kind of way free will really doesn't exist. As the previous poster says, Hass articulates it very nicely. Of course in any given situation, the illusion holds up - so in many ways it may not appear to be an illusion.

Free will does exist. It and art are what separates us from the animals

We are animals though, and whilst we have far more advanced minds than all other animals on this planet, a lot less actually separates us than many of us would like to believe. By the standards of the Earth, we are pretty nifty constructs. By the standards of the Galaxy though? Our Galactic cluster? Super cluster? It's beyond reasonable doubt that extra terrestrial life exists, it's even highly likely that other intelligent life forms exists in our Galaxy, possibly several hundred different intelligent species. Our Galaxy is a speck of dust relative to the universe as a whole, and the universe is a minuscule component of something much greater. I wonder if an alien intelligence would view us as special? If they had the ability to view us at all, then the answer is probably 'doubtful'.

Hope this helps.

 

[valcik]

Also: I believe in Zeus. I don't even understand why others stopped believing in Him.

I blame Benjamin Franklin. Thanks to the lightning conductor, old angry Zeus throwing the lightnings has become obsolete.

 

[Tagaziel]

Free will does exist. It and art are what separates us from the animals

Humans ARE animals. Our evolution into our present form is pretty well documented and estabilished. Denying that fact is the highest form of arrogance man is capable of. Humans aren't intrinsically better than, say, tigers, whales or spiders.

Furthermore, what is free will? Every living being on Earth has free will, though not necessarily the same as primates. For instance, a dog also has choices in his life. They may be simpler, but they are no less of an expression of free will. For instance, a confrontation between two dogs. Each has a choice of ignoring, attacking, running away or doing something entirely different. The decision isn't made basing on some instinct, it's made on a careful assesment of all relevant factors, eventually manifesting in a chosen action.

I'm wondering how will religion and theism react to the discovery of extraterrestial species on par with humans. Given that all terran religions base on the assumption that humans are somehow special and unique, that might be a back-breaking event. Even more so if the other civilization has religions that base on an identical assumption.

Currently a similiar process can be observed, as science illuminates the unknown and there are less and less niches for religion to hide in.

Hypothetical situation: Why would we need god in a civilization that knows nearly everything?

 

[Sub-Human]

For instance, a confrontation between two dogs. Each has a choice of ignoring, attacking, running away or doing something entirely different. The decision isn't made basing on some instinct, it's made on a careful assesment of all relevant factors, eventually manifesting in a chosen action.

Your example, Tag, is not entirely correct. It's the instincts of the dog that tell it to run away, attack, ignore, or do something entirely different. Is it a bigger dog? Is it a threat? Is it simply playing? The dog obviously won't start barking and attack a random dog because it feels like it, it's because the instincts think it's a threat, and thus must be terminated.

A person, on the other hand, has the will to take a pistol and attack a group of tourists in the center of town simply because he wants to. It's his will. He also can build a pile of rocks because he can. Will a dog do it? Probably not.

 

[Tagaziel]

Your example, Tag, is not entirely correct. It's the instincts of the dog that tell it to run away, attack, ignore, or do something entirely different. Is it a bigger dog? Is it a threat? Is it simply playing? The dog obviously won't start barking and attack a random dog because it feels like it, it's because the instincts think it's a threat, and thus must be terminated.

A person, on the other hand, has the will to take a pistol and attack a group of tourists in the center of town simply because he wants to. It's his will. He also can build a pile of rocks because he can. Will a dog do it? Probably not.

What is instinct? What is the definition you use? If everyone except for humans was driven by instincts, then they'd be binary. A dog would either fight to the death or run away, with no middle ground. You wouldn't be able to scare it off, because it would always instinctively attack.

Humans denigrate other species by calling their thinking "instincts", while naming the exact same thought processes in their heads as "reason".

If anything, a person killing people randomly in a town is more due to his instincts, an innate proclivity for violence, rather than him having free will.

 

[maximaz]

There are certainly forces influencing our every choice, as I said in my post that mentioned this whole free will thing. Whether it's peer pressure, some environmental factors, or even our personal biological factors like a mood affected by a physical sensation or condition, there are always constant forces pushing us toward the choices we make. There is simply no denying that. This is the reason why a human being cannot, for example, draw a concept that is not based on something they already saw (at least that's what they say).

Does this mean that we are not responsible for what we do though? Absolutely not. Sure, every decision we make comes from somewhere but there are factors influencing us to act in one direction and there are factors influencing us to act in the opposite direction as well. One side may outweigh the other but it is ultimately the question of which one an individual chooses to go with. This is why in every group of life-long brothers in douchebaggery, there is a decent guy. We are not mindless mechanisms of perception and reaction. At the end of the day, we govern ourselves and we can take time to consider our decisions and choose the influencing factors to go with, those that make sense to us, instead of allowing them to govern out choices automatically.

Now, I may be wrong about this but so can be the opposite view. Noone can really claim to know just quite yet.

We are animals though, and whilst we have far more advanced minds than all other animals on this planet, a lot less actually separates us than many of us would like to believe. By the standards of the Earth, we are pretty nifty constructs. By the standards of the Galaxy though? Our Galactic cluster? Super cluster? It's beyond reasonable doubt that extra terrestrial life exists, it's even highly likely that other intelligent life forms exists in our Galaxy, possibly several hundred different intelligent species. Our Galaxy is a speck of dust relative to the universe as a whole, and the universe is a minuscule component of something much greater. I wonder if an alien intelligence would view us as special? If they had the ability to view us at all, then the answer is probably '
doubtful'.

Interesting point here. I think that the fact that our planet is less than a grain of sand in the cosmos, does not make us less significant in any way whatsoever. It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it. Considering how scientifically improbable existence of any complex life on an average planet is, it's entirely possible that we are the only beings in our entire cluster.

Now, taking into account the sheer number of stars out there, I don't believe that and NASA has already found other planets that are potentially similar to Earth but when we start factoring in aliens and similar possibilities, we start speaking in what-ifs. Intelligent life may be out there, and I believe it is, but it's still a theory. And if it is out there, who is to say that the aliens are anymore special than we are? Perhaps their whole understanding of life is to kidnap people, probe them, and put videos up on galactic youtube. Maybe they are the equivalent of the most annoying and immature teenager on xbox live who just happened to be good at building awesome spaceships. Maybe, they lack any personality or individuality at all and roam the space, trying not to interfere with anything, as natural breathing computer-like intelligence that will seem very emotionless and lifeless to us, like a tree with an AI or a walking iPhone. My laptop can do things within seconds that I cannot do in an hour, does it make it more important?

I think that every creature is equally important and has an equally important role to play in the development of life. In some religions, every insect has a soul. Believing in God does not mean believing that humans are it and everything else is crap. It does mean that they are tested in a way unique to human beings and everything else has their own way.

 

[Sub-Human]

Well, Tagaziel, you indeed understand that a dog relies on instinct.

The thing is, I'm not saying a human is not instinct-free. It's just that we can control this instinct. There are pretty good-looking girls in my school but I don't just go and have sex with them. I have the will to not do it. And if someone attacks me on the street, I have will too - instead of biting his ear off and then beating him to death to terminate the threat, I have the choice of incacipating my opponent. Do you think a dog would give you a chance like that? No. It's an instinct to kick ass and have no mercy.

And then again, I don't want to say people have no instinct. They do. We drink and eat when our instinct tells us to do so. We might shoot someone in the head if we're under danger. We might even bite someone's ear off and beat them to death. It's all instinct. Survival, hunger, thirst, you name it. Nevertheless, we have free will - the will to have choices. After all, we choose the girls we have sex with, instead of simply impregnating one and then running off to hang out with our fellow pack.

 

[Sabirah]

Free will does exist. It and art are what separates us from the animals

Humans ARE animals. Our evolution into our present form is pretty well documented and estabilished. Denying that fact is the highest form of arrogance man is capable of. Humans aren't intrinsically better than, say, tigers, whales or spiders.

Yaar, I majored in biology. I know that but there is a clear seperation between Humans and everything else. I guess you can call it sentience but I don't know the word to describe it as

 

[maximaz]

There are pretty good-looking girls in my school but I don't just go and have sex with them.

Are you saying that it's your choice whether to go and have sex with them? Are you sure it's not their choice that you don't?

 

[Tagaziel]

Well, Tagaziel, you indeed understand that a dog relies on instinct.

The thing is, I'm not saying a human is not instinct-free. It's just that we can control this instinct. There are pretty good-looking girls in my school but I don't just go and have sex with them. I have the will to not do it. And if someone attacks me on the street, I have will too - instead of biting his ear off and then beating him to death to terminate the threat, I have the choice of incacipating my opponent. Do you think a dog would give you a chance like that? No. It's an instinct to kick ass and have no mercy.

And then again, I don't want to say people have no instinct. They do. We drink and eat when our instinct tells us to do so. We might shoot someone in the head if we're under danger. We might even bite someone's ear off and beat them to death. It's all instinct. Survival, hunger, thirst, you name it. Nevertheless, we have free will - the will to have choices. After all, we choose the girls we have sex with, instead of simply impregnating one and then running off to hang out with our fellow pack.

Have you done any research into the matter at all? Say, non-human animal mating rituals etc.? Because animals aren't entirely governed by instinct. You're trying to create an artificial division between you, a pink-skinned hairless ape and the rest of the animal kingdom, by proudly claiming that you can control yourself. Big deal, the rest of the animal kingdom does so too.

For instance, dogs. You claim that a dog will always attack without giving pause. Sorry, but as a guy who participated in professional dog shows, lived with three champion-level dogs and helped train them, the canine psyche is a much more complex thing and is far from being just instinct-based.

Of course, you can always claim that "dog training is just teaching them the proper reflexes". I call bullshit on that, as training a dog is much like teaching a human child. You mistake communication barriers and innate obedience for lack of thought. If dogs cannot think, then how come dogs are capable of memorizing extremely complex behaviours and repeat them perfectly on command? Or memorize human sleep patterns and everyday routine? Or recognize and participate in complex social structures?

Yaar, I majored in biology. I know that but there is a clear seperation between Humans and everything else. I guess you can call it sentience but I don't know the word to describe it as

Does that separation have any grounding in hard science? Say, a detailed psychological model of a canine psyche that rules out the possibility of sentience?

 

[Hassknecht]

There are pretty good-looking girls in my school but I don't just go and have sex with them.

Are you saying that it's your choice whether to go and have sex with them? Are you sure it's not their choice that you don't?

If he is stronger than them, it is mostly his choice

 

[Crni Vuk]

But your decision of helping or walking away is entirely conditioned by the past factors.

Then count me as the first person you know where this does not count.

If I would have to go by "past" factors then I would have to be already dead or some criminal addicted on heroin since I had pretty much no childhood (or one I would gladly forget). But I chose "not" to go the easy way out.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am not saying that I or others can change the way how situations happen. There is a clear limitation when it comes to the free will or how much we can really chose. But within a given "frame" and we can in our small little world sometimes change things and chose. Experience, education, environment, etc. Yes it all plays a role. Hence why I said that the effect of free will is quite small. But it exists. It is there.

If you guys chose to just get "pushed" around by ALL the things around you. Then so be it. That is your choice. But I do believe that a few small things (or sometimes big things) CAN be changed.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Worlds not black or white, no free will or yes free will. It is usually always a spectrum with many different colours in between.

 

[Hassknecht]

You don't understand how your mind and your thoughts are formed.
'You' decide, yes. But what is it that decides? As far as we know, it's nothing out of our physical reality. It is determined by past factors.
Your mind is not some supernatural thing that sits outside of our universe, independent of this reality.
Your mind is formed in your brain. As I said, each state is a propagation of a previous state.
When you decide against a life of heroine addiction, you do so because it is the consequence of past states of all the neurons in your brain.
The logic of this decision (in your case no childhood but still a decent life) might not be apparent, but it is also intrinsic.
There is a misunderstanding, yes. I mean that your thoughts and actions are predetermined. Now you might say "Ok, I'll throw my life away", and that would also be consequence of your past.
However, from a personal view, you decide what to do.
Your sentient consciousness is determined by its past, but it is still your personality, it is you. Your ego exists. It's hard to explain as it is a rather abstract concept and I feel that a lot of people have quite the problem with viewing things from a viewpoint that is as non-personalized as it is possible.

 

[UniversalWolf]

openly hostile. What kind of being would create weaker beings and then torture them for eternity if they don't constantly suck up to him and follow strictures that contradict the fundamental nature he gave them, all without giving them the slightest shred of tangible evidence that he exists?

But if Allah hated us why would he not just kill us outright.

Because giving you life and all sorts of nice things to appreciate makes it sting more when they get taken away from you; and they all do eventually get taken away. You'll be far more sad and miserable if you know what it is you're losing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You don't understand how your mind and your thoughts are formed.
'You' decide, yes. But what is it that decides? As far as we know, it's nothing out of our physical reality. It is determined by past factors.
Your mind is not some supernatural thing that sits outside of our universe, independent of this reality.
Your mind is formed in your brain. As I said, each state is a propagation of a previous state.
When you decide against a life of heroine addiction, you do so because it is the consequence of past states of all the neurons in your brain.
The logic of this decision (in your case no childhood but still a decent life) might not be apparent, but it is also intrinsic.
There is a misunderstanding, yes. I mean that your thoughts and actions are predetermined. Now you might say "Ok, I'll throw my life away", and that would also be consequence of your past.
However, from a personal view, you decide what to do.
Your sentient consciousness is determined by its past, but it is still your personality, it is you. Your ego exists. It's hard to explain as it is a rather abstract concept and I feel that a lot of people have quite the problem with viewing things from a viewpoint that is as non-personalized as it is possible.

I dont see why this is a contradiction with "free will".

Either option A or Option B.

Again. I already said. Of course it is ALWAYS a reaction to past events. but that does not mean that you cant SOMETIMES(!) at least decide if you chose the right side or the left side.

Jesus guys. Com on its not rocket science. Even my trainer which is a phyisicst agrees that there is a free will (but probably only 10% of what we decide in other words very small).

 

[Hassknecht]

You don't understand how your mind and your thoughts are formed.
'You' decide, yes. But what is it that decides? As far as we know, it's nothing out of our physical reality. It is determined by past factors.
Your mind is not some supernatural thing that sits outside of our universe, independent of this reality.
Your mind is formed in your brain. As I said, each state is a propagation of a previous state.
When you decide against a life of heroine addiction, you do so because it is the consequence of past states of all the neurons in your brain.
The logic of this decision (in your case no childhood but still a decent life) might not be apparent, but it is also intrinsic.
There is a misunderstanding, yes. I mean that your thoughts and actions are predetermined. Now you might say "Ok, I'll throw my life away", and that would also be consequence of your past.
However, from a personal view, you decide what to do.
Your sentient consciousness is determined by its past, but it is still your personality, it is you. Your ego exists. It's hard to explain as it is a rather abstract concept and I feel that a lot of people have quite the problem with viewing things from a viewpoint that is as non-personalized as it is possible.

I dont see why this is a contradiction with "free will".

Either option A or Option B.

Again. I already said. Of course it is ALWAYS a reaction to past events. but that does not mean that you cant SOMETIMES(!) at least decide if you chose the right side or the left side.

Jesus guys. Com on its not rocket science. Even my trainer which is a phyisicst agrees that there is a free will (but probably only 10% of what we decide in other words very small).

All I'm saying is that free will is an illusion.
It's pretty much the same, but your decisions do not come from some independent source.
Thus you can change things, of course. You consciously do that every time. But those decisions and changes do not come from an independent source, they come from causality as your consciousness comes from causality.
In the end, free will would mean that there is a component in your consciousness that is independent from the past states. As far as we know it, there isn't.
There is no real difference between the illusion and actual free will. Kinda like the Matrix from the eponymous movie.
Also, physicists are no authority on philosophical questions. I'm a physicist as well, but that doesn't mean anything besides my ability to slur in shit about quantum mechanics from time to time

 

[Crni Vuk]

I have the feeling we are talking past each other. What ever you are smoking though. The "you base your decisions on previous" actions is NOT what I mean.

Even if you always have to decide based on what happend before (action - reaction) it STILL is up to you what to do with it.

Or are you one of those which believes in the newton mechanics where the future is predetermined ?

No seriously now. If I would really follow everything the way you tell me right now then there would be no reason to make the best out of my life. I ve seen (and experienced) to many crazy things in my life which tell me that there is something like a "free will". The decision to make the best out of your situations or just to let it go and happen.

This is more about that we are aware about our self as sentient beeings. It does not mean that we have controll about all of our actions. Probably only very little of the things we do is.

You say the free will is an ilusion. I think that I have a chance to shape my life if I work hard enough.

Why are you even existing then ? Why do you study physics ? If nothing is based on "your will" or "what you want" ?