Asbestos Religion Thread

Yes, we are talking past each other.
I think you don't quite understand what I mean with "your mind is a consequence of its past and your surroundings", I guess you still view the mind as an abstract thing unaffected by the phyiscal reality, something somehow out of our universe.
I don't think I can make my point any clearer as I can't think of a way to describe it in any other way than I already did.
Let's just leave it at that.
 
Crni, it seems you simply don't get what we're trying to say. I mean you do get it but not in the way it's meant to be understood. It's as if there are two pe.... fuck it, my english sucks. Hass, you do it.
 
Hassknecht said:
Yes, we are talking past each other.
I think you don't quite understand what I mean with "your mind is a consequence of its past and your surroundings", I guess you still view the mind as an abstract thing unaffected by the phyiscal reality, something somehow out of our universe.
I don't think I can make my point any clearer as I can't think of a way to describe it in any other way than I already did.
Let's just leave it at that.
Click to expand...
because you come with quantum physics which come with a ton of teir own problem?

I could not care less what scientists try to explain with their quantums if they cant even "observe" them (Heisenbergsche unschärferelation das sollte dir ein Begriff sein ;))

Because to say it that way. I cant be more clear either.

I do already agree with you people when you say that any decision is only a REACTION to something which happend.

But that does not mean I dont have the freedom to chose MY PATH ON MY OWN as long there ARE options available. "Do I go back to school again ? Or do I decide to stay in my current job? Do I study now this ? or That ? Both are interesting!". - I am talking about decisions which are neither right nor wrong but simply taking you in a different direction of your life.

Or that I dont have the strength to change habits for example.

I cant stop going to the toilet for example because that would kill me at some point obviously. But I always can decide to take a shower if someone told me "you stink". Or I decide to never shower again.

Now that I came to think about it though I guess I am wrong with one thing as (...)
Nobody can prove free will or predestination conclusively. It is a great mental exercise to consider the possibilities, but at the end of the day, all such inquiry will end with a question mark.

If everything is predestined, then nothing matters. Every single thought in your head, every one of your actions, is not you but predestination. You have absolutely no control.

If you have free will, then you and only you are responsible for the mess or distinction you make out of your life. And at the end of it, there might be somebody holding you accountable.

I tend to believe the answer might be somwhere in the midle (which it often is concerning such matters).

Not to mention we are talking here about the human mind which isnt really understood completely either.
 
These kinds of debates may bear more fruit in a couple hundred years when we know more. We do have a basic grasp on the mechanics of the brain, and how they can effect us, but I don't think we know as much as we think we know. We always claim to know how things are then a hundred years later we find out that we were wrong.


Here is a quote that says it best:

"There is no doubt that great revolutions of human scientific thought will occur in the next century, and in the century after that, and in thousands of centuries afterward. So which of our current pet scientific dogmas will be among the first washed away by new facts and sudden clarities.
 
The fact that we already have technologies that can scan your brain, I think, is proof enough it'll take us little more than a few decades, then a century or two, to find out everything we need to know about the mechanics of the brain. You know, send little robots wondering around all parts of your head and recording it in real time or something.
 
You guys sound like some of the Enlightenment naturalists who thought human knowledge of the universe would be complete within a few decades.

I think we've drifted away from the topic of religion.
 
UniversalWolf said:
You guys sound like some of the Enlightenment naturalists who thought human knowledge of the universe would be complete within a few decades.

I think we've drifted away from the topic of religion.
Click to expand...

That is just humans being human. People like to think they have an idea of how things work until their belief systems are overturned by some new bit of info, then they try to fit that new concept into the new framework.

I often wonder why people are so focused on Religion. I don't think you have to be religious to believe in a creator - I actually think it is counterproductive to base everything you believe on pre-existing dogmas that have been corrupted by human influence. Why kill each other over relatively minor differences in religion? Why can't people realize that a loving God would never want you to kill someone over land? Why do millions of Christians mindlessly support Israel because it is the "Holy Land"? Why would anyone believe that murdering someone will get you to Heaven? Because one prophet said it was the case? Wouldn't it be just as plausible that some of these messages from "Prophets" were corrupted by demonic influence? I'm not saying demons exist or whatnot, but if you believe the Old Testament then you should believe in demons. False Prophets were supposed to cause a lot of problems, so is it so outlandish to question these established religions? Would God want a so called Holy War? Would God want one nation to succeed more than another simply because of it's geographical location? Just my two-cents.
 
TorontRayne said:
I actually think it is counterproductive to base everything you believe on pre-existing dogmas that have been corrupted by human influence.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. Also,I think the idea of thinking we are anywhere near knowing all the mysteries of the universe is preposterous, not to mention arrogant. All we have are a mere series of theories that at the most are vague about explaining how we even got here and that are constantly being changed by new discoveries even as we speak. We are still caveman staring at shadows in a wall.

We are way more than a few hundred years away from learning all the mysteries, it is my opinion even that some mysteries we will never be even able to grasp with our simple limited minds, and are way beyond our rational comprehension.

Whenever we gather a little series of knowledges, we create a boundary around them and we comfort ourselves in the thought that those knowledges are the extent of the universe, while remaining ignorant of an infinity of things beyond those very boundaries we ourselves stablished.
 
Hassknecht said:
Yes, we are talking past each other.
I think you don't quite understand what I mean with "your mind is a consequence of its past and your surroundings", I guess you still view the mind as an abstract thing unaffected by the phyiscal reality, something somehow out of our universe.
I don't think I can make my point any clearer as I can't think of a way to describe it in any other way than I already did.
Let's just leave it at that.
Click to expand...
You're saying there's no duality (body and mind). You're saying the mind is a consequence of the complexity of our bodies. I think that is the main viewpoint of most biologists nowadays because it's backed up by a shitload of experiments. So yeah. :roll:
 
I never used to believed in the afterlife but I've had some supernatural experiences and that basicly changed my mind for good.

**Dives deep and rigs for silent running**
 
mobucks said:
I never used to believed in the afterlife but I've had some supernatural experiences and that basicly changed my mind for good.
Click to expand...
Honest question: how do you know they were supernatural and not a product of your mind's inner workings?
 
UniversalWolf said:
mobucks said:
I never used to believed in the afterlife but I've had some supernatural experiences and that basicly changed my mind for good.
Click to expand...
Honest question: how do you know they were supernatural and not a product of your mind's inner workings?
Click to expand...

That is the big debate isn't it? Why does it have to be one or the other though?
 
After playing the Crusader Kings 2 demo recently I've been reading up on old Christian heresies like monophysitism, catharism, bogomilism, and the lollards. It's pretty funny, thinking of all these people sitting around arguing about whether Jesus was human, divine, or a demigod. It's like a bunch of Star Trek nerds arguing about Klingon rituals.

The eradication of the Cathars in Occitania was particularly heinous.
 
UniversalWolf said:
After playing the Crusader Kings 2 demo recently I've been reading up on old Christian heresies like monophysitism, catharism, bogomilism, and the lollards. It's pretty funny, thinking of all these people sitting around arguing about whether Jesus was human, divine, or a demigod. It's like a bunch of Star Trek nerds arguing about Klingon rituals.

The eradication of the Cathars in Occitania was particularly heinous.
Click to expand...

It is really cool to see how religions change over time. Just look at how many different denominations the Christians have. Everyone has a slightly different view of the world. How could any one person think they have it figured out for sure? No one can definitively say whether there is or isn't a God. That is why people fight about it so much. That is what makes it such a volatile topic.

Many Christians don't even know how the Bible was pieced together. They don't know about the various councils that got together over a couple hundred years, deciding what books to throw out, and what books to leave in. Many Christians don't know about the Catholic church using the native cultures Pagan roots to trick them into becoming Christians. They even have Saints that are actually based off of Pagan God's and Goddesses. They made Satan a Goat to demonize the Pagans God's. Why would God have to resort to trickery to make people believe in him? Would God condone what the Catholics did?

I honestly think organized religion is a crock of shit. A couple hundred years ago it served a valuable purpose, but it has done more harm than good. By tricking their worshipers they lost what credibility they really had.

Of course I am speaking in a very broad sense. Not all Christians are oblivious to the Religions history. It is also inevitable that any organization that is populated with humans will become corrupt in some way. I personally believe that Religion is overrated, but great value can be obtained from books like the Bible.
 
...this man knows.

Also also also, get ready for the "tourismification" of religion in a half a century or so. Way we're headed, religion is going to equal "culture" and instead of watching people making cheese or spinning a wheel to make a knife, we're gonna be watching people praying and doing crazy stuff in the honor of their gods. I reckon plenty of that happens already, and I'm not talking just about Jerusalem and stuff like that.
 
Morbus said:
Also also also, get ready for the "tourismification" of religion in a half a century or so. Way we're headed, religion is going to equal "culture" and instead of watching people making cheese or spinning a wheel to make a knife, we're gonna be watching people praying and doing crazy stuff in the honor of their gods. I reckon plenty of that happens already, and I'm not talking just about Jerusalem and stuff like that.
Click to expand...

It's already happening. Just go to vatican city and wander the streets. Catholicism in the most Catholic place on earth has become little more than tourism. I'm not saying that this wasn't ever the case, mind you. But I'm sure that pilgrims did not come to Rome in the 12th century to buy a remote controlled pope mobile.
 
FWIW, the Cathars were a sort of proto-protestant movement that disdained the earthly power of the church and were actively anti-war. At one time they were widespread in and around southern France. At first the Pope sent monks and scholars to debate them publicly, but they lost all the debates, so then he decreed a crusade against them, and said that any noble who conquered their lands could have title to them, so swarms of thieving aristocrats attacked them from all sides until they were entirely wiped out.

Just like Jesus would have wanted.
 
UniversalWolf said:
FWIW, the Cathars were a sort of proto-protestant movement that disdained the earthly power of the church
Click to expand...
Eh...kind of, but the Cathars were little more than a popular cult with some really crazy ideas, with 'holy men' essentially exploiting the believers. Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou is a very interesting read about one of those Southern French towns controlled by Cathars.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top