Bethesda has uploaded raw videos from E3

A broken leg, or any other damage for that matter, will most probably be just a little nuisance for the player. Though I am surprised by the effect of radiation where it seems to lower your max. health, so the more radiation you have the more fraggile you will be. Actually, if it works like that, it could be a pretty neat idea. I always felt that radiation should play a more serious effect. Though ... in typical Bethesda manner you will be most probably showered in rad aways and rad x early in the game.
 
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Trying to pidgeon-hole valid concerns about the game by calling them some sort of "hate" or "onslaught" that has no reason or purpose isn't going to win you points around here.

If you can't see why people don't like some of the changes enough to talk about them, try reading more instead of calling their concerns "nitpicking" or "anti bethesda". You will probably find that they have a solid reason behind their concern and not just an irrational hate of one of many game developers.

If interplay did any of the same things (and they did) we would shit all over them too (and we did). It's not a bethesda thing, or even a latter day bethesda thing. It's more about the seemingly poor choices themselves.

enjoy your stay.

I can appreciate that and I would love to discuss any qualms anyone has with valid concerns of game play or rpg elements for example. That would be lovely. However, the "valid concerns" seem more miniscule in nature.

I can see why people don't like the changes such as the skills for example that irks me as well as I always enjoyed my skills in fallout they are important but I also understand evolutionary discharge. When a caterpillar turns into a butterfly it no longer crawls it instead flies. So that being said This is what fallout is now, an FPS RPG. Skills are really not required in an FPS. It just doesn't make sense to add a mathematical equation when no matter how low my gun skill is I can certainly still aim a gun and shoot it easily. It is a waste of man power to implement something that has no purpose other then to fake a PnP mechanic to make rpg players appeased. I find it silly for someone to complain about an evolutionary trait that is required. I no longer need a tail so nature deems I don't have one.

I look at video game progression as a more organic creature in this same sense. The point of all of this is that I feel the "nitpicking" is still based on an underlying prejudice and bias because this is no longer the fallout of yore(Which by the way I also prefer to it's current iteration. I can't stress that enough.) and will never be. So many people search for reasons to dislike Bethesdas version.

I also feel when obsidian made NV people jumped on the bandwagon because it was made by many of the original creators of fallout such as Chris and Josh.

Maybe I am incorrect, I can live with that. I am a very humble individual. I am just surprised as to the extent of the gripes and how many of them just seem like a need to find anything wrong with Fallout 4, when I myself am just excited for another fallout game. One where I can explore another section of post apocalyptic America perhaps it is naivety I don't know b
ut

I can also agree with your point near the end with it not being a Bethesda thing. I can understand that it is more about the poor choices they are making, but are they really all that terrible compared to what it could be? that is all I want to know.

I appreciate the response.
 
Anti Fallout? If one doesn't piss honey over what Bethsoft is doing? :D That's quite an extreme way to put it.... In that case, I guess I'm anti Fallout extremist of the highest order. Haha. No really, Beth make nice action games and funparks... But they totally suck at making decent RPGs. And in my opinion they have royally butchered Fallout series and there's no end to the BS apparently.

It all looks like that we're gonna get FO3 on steroids and not in the good way. Of course people here are "anti bethsoft" and "anti fallout". That's what happens when you present new flashy eye candy sims shooter in a safe sandbox type Fallout to old school RPG crowd. The biggest mystery for me is the fact that why didn't bethesda guys look at what made New Vegas so good, grab the good stuff and run with it... I mean they seem to have some really cool features coming up, but its everything except a good role playing game. Most probably 99% of the writing, characters and dialog is going to suck, all red flags and signs are up that this is the case.

Dammit. I wasn't supposed to say anything about any FO4 related stuff, I don't have much nice things to say about it.... Oh well.

Lol true, I agree they are not the best when it comes to hardcore RPG stuff. But I really am in the hopes that with working with Obsidian that we will one day get a proper Fallout Isometric Game. One that has depth to it like in the olden days. I think that the more IP's that Bethesda picks up the more likely they will begin branching out in other directions with their IP's.

I think they own a great deal of FPS studios, but they also seem to be trying different things out.

I Agree with the taking good things from NV such as disguises that was a cool mechanic that I always loved from NV. I can see your concerns I too worry about the dialog and writing as they really don't do well in that department. But I usually bludgeon first and ask questions later.

So I hope that at least the world is fun to explore and I can make my own stories as I go. I also don't want to seem as if I am in disagreement about people who disagree with fallout and the direction it has taken. I think the concerns can be fair but I do think some can be outlandishly unnecessary.
 
Oh boy ... *heavy breathing* when "normal" RPGs are called hardcore and shooters normal RPGs, than you know that the genre is in serious trouble. :P

I can appreciate that and I would love to discuss any qualms anyone has with valid concerns of game play or rpg elements for example. That would be lovely. However, the "valid concerns" seem more miniscule in nature.

The internet has not enough not sure if serious images to express my feelings right now.
So this should do it ... for now.
https://www.google.de/search?q=not+...rciBxwIVZaJyCh2I7Qsn&biw=1143&bih=714&dpr=0.9

I mean removing of skills - what ever if that will turn out to be a good decision or not - isn't something that I would call a miniscule concern. Same with the dialogue wheel, the decision to give the protagonist a voice and so on.

We are after all talking about a game that claims to be an RPG here and not a shooter or a franchise that actually started as shooter in the first place. So if those mechanics get changed and/or dismantled, for what ever reason than it will start a discussion and it is something worth to talk about.

I mean imagine if the next Need for Speed game told you they would introduce a leveling system with character creation and skills like Wisdom, Intelligence, Strength etc. affecting your driving in game where direct player input/skills will be reduced to a minimum. I think that would start a big discussion as well.

Point is, many might see the Mass-Effect like approach that Fallout 4 seems to follow an improvement. But the truth is, it's moving away from what RPGs are at their heart. And that is to define a role and to navigate it trough the game. When you chose for your character to be witty, articulate and intelligent, than this is what he will display in the game. If you chose for him to be a lone, antisocial gunslinger. Than this is what he will be. That's called "role playing". What you do in F4 is always assuming the role of this Soldier-Boy that was frozen for 200 years. We have no clue how much of a role that will play in the game or how limited the dialogues will be. But I believe Fallout is becoming under Beth more and more a shooter with RPG elements thrown in heading in a more cinematic direction.
 
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I just kind of stopped trying to reason with "HARDCORE GAMERZ tm", they are by nature completely inconsistent creatures, worried more with tags and bandwagons than with any critical thoughts. They will ride on hate trains only when it's popular, even if faced with the exact same situation elsewhere they won't even bother to form their own opinions. They pretend like they care about Franchise integrity when the game doesn't have a massive hype campaign and a shitty mobile game to back it up, or when the words IMMURSHUNZ and such are used. HEll a lot of them don't even see the problem with homogenization of the medium while also tryharding the "Games are art!" thing as well.
 
But I believe Fallout is becoming under Beth more and more a shooter with RPG elements thrown in heading in a more cinematic direction.

I do wish that enough of us would get together and make a total conversion mod for FO4 using the GECK, if the tool seems viable.
(Though a large team agreeing on the exact goal would be hellish.)

Sadly I can't find the video about the id tech 4 turn based demo anymore. Very basic similar to the Troika demo about their rumor-to-be-Fallout-post-apoc project. The fan project by a modder based on the Doom 3 engine looked really funn, at least you could imagine what could have been. And it's always nice to show some, yeees Turn Based can be done in 3D as well, nooooo it's not a graphic limitation :mrgreen:
 
Or instead of indulging in Bethesda's game... what about making a new game that actually follows classic Fallout's spirit and goals?

Fan projects are notoriously hard to finish. There is plenty of interest to start such a project at first but once the reality sets in that such a project takes ages to finish people start to drop off one after another.
I am working for example on some text for a mod for Lexx and I have been taking longer on it than I wanted. I really need to focus the coming weeks and not let myself be distracted as I really want to finish this. (I want to become a modder)
 
Sadly I can't find the video about the id tech 4 turn based demo anymore. Very basic similar to the Troika demo about their rumor-to-be-Fallout-post-apoc project. The fan project by a modder based on the Doom 3 engine looked really funn, at least you could imagine what could have been. And it's always nice to show some, yeees Turn Based can be done in 3D as well, nooooo it's not a graphic limitation :mrgreen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewN2qBXQKXY


And such a superb thing it is. This is the only reason I bought DOOM3. IIRC, these guys all got jobs after [for] making this.
 
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Right. And if temperature is the only critera for you, everything that is frozen can be called icrecream. But I am not sure if everyone will share that evaluation ...


Well, you create/play a kind of character in almost every game. Be it from strategy games where you are most of the time just called the Commander or General or in games like GTA where you have to assume the role of a criminal. If you really see the playing of a character or character creation as only token than Doom, Quake, the Sims and Half-Life are RPGs too. Mechanics matter my friend. That is the harsh truth that many Beth fans simply don't want to accept - not that I am calling you a Beth fan I am just saying this in general, not that I only blame them for it. The term RPG has been wattered down so much over the years that it has become meaningless. That's why we talk today about the Action RPGs which could theoretically be all games you play today and the PnP RPGs or CRPGs. Games like Torment or Fallout 1 which have been normal RPGs in the past when it was still a niche in gaming are considered hardcore today and many publishers avoid it like the plaque if it can't be sold as action RPG as they see their playbase as to dumb to figure something out and enjoy content that is god forbid deeper and more complex than Call of Duty or Halo so they concentrate on the lowest possible denominator. Not that I have a problem with CoD or Halo, I enjoy such games. I just don't an RPG on the level of CoD.

With skills in a game like Fallout 1 you are not supposed to actually play a role but to create a character and play the game with the skills you chose and guiding him trough the world making decisions based on the qualities of said character. Playing a dimplomath is different to a warrior. Playing a paladin is different to a druid, priest, mage or monk. And this is usually reflected by the choice in the skills - and some games can even go as far as to remove your class when you actually don't behave like as it is expected from the class, becoming something like a fallen Paladin for example. The reason for this is, because you're supposed to play the achetypes in contrast to a game where you might have to assume one single character, like Gerald in the Witcher. I am not saying that a game where you play a single character like Gerald of Rivia or Adam Jenson can't work as RPG. But they do not offer you any chance to really stray away from that role, hence why it is totally fine for a game like Witcher 3 to not let the player kill civilians/inocent people because that would be simply totally out of Geralds role, an RPG like Fallout 1 though would work on a different design idea allowing you to play a child killing psychopath. But of course to those that that don't like RPGs this might be eventually over their head. For them it's all just the same, playing the Masterchief in Halo or the Marine in Doom is also "Roleplaying" ... so who cares if F3/F4 is moving rather in that direction than Fallout 1/2. For them beeing shuned by some questgivers for playing a psychopath is an error and where they question why they can't be both. Killer of Megaton and saviour of the wasteland.

RPGs like Fallout 1 gave you a wide field to explore with characters and character creation. That is where mechanics matter a lot.

I say that Fallout 4 if it follows the footsteps of Fallout 3 is not a real RPG for me, call it an adventure game, a hiking simulator a gore simulator or whack-a-raider or what ever. But from what I have seen I am not convinced that it's an RPG, it just borrows some characterstics from RPGs. But that's it. And many games do this even. Like Warcraft 3 where you have some heroes. Or Blizzard heroes of the storm with skills and level ups. But no one would get really the idea to call those strategy games RPGs. So I am not sure why I should call F3/F4 anything else than shooters. But that's my opinion.

Adventure games being a strong front runner in that department.
Except that even you're calling them ADVENTURE games and not ROLE PLAYING games. I could call a motorcycle a car because in my opinion both have wheels, but that still does not make it true.

And that is what Bethesda is doing here in my opinion. They take a car (Fallout 1) and remove 2 of the wheels and selling it as motorcycle (Fallout 3, Fallout 4).
[/QUOTE]

Nevermind I figured it out Your picture was causing my quotation problems.

I agree Mechanics do matter 100% certainly when it comes to RPG's, that is true and Bethesdas track record has steadily fallen starting with Oblivion.

Yes I think it is rather sad that the industry has catered more toward mindlessness rather then meditative consequence. The closing of a door that also opens a another door. If that analogy makes sense. Is to me an important factor in immersion and role playing. I

think that is something games sadly lack at least in the main stream. When I fall off a cliff and then don't actually lose the game because I was an idiot I cringe. Being revived where I fell off irritates me that my hand was held and I was not punished for my insolence.

I see your point with the skills, but I think that I can just as easily create that sort of thing in my head just as I would playing DnD. All of my skills are tied to my Ability score so effectively if my character is Dexterous I know that he could potentially be acrobatic, stealthy, or a efficient pick pocket. Strength, I know i can use heavier weapons. I can likely carry more things, I can also jump higher, and throw farther etc, etc. As an old rpg player I know that. I don't need them to spell that out for me. That to me is dumbing it down. I don't need a set of skills to tell me how my character should behave Or what his limitations are. I can base that on my abilities or I can make that up as I go along. Story also does not hinder me in that regard. I hated that in Skyrim you had to be a Dragonborn That was the most idiotic decision I've ever had to deal with. I think that mistake can be made here as well but that is not because of skills that is because of story. The Quirks of my character I create solely based upon his actions not on his skills that is only secondary. I think that there is certainly room to explore your character but you have to make that path and I think that can be difficult for Roleplaying players as well as we expect a certain depth to be laid out for us rather then to create that depth ourselves. I think If we are given the tools we shouldn't rely on mechanics as the sole means of our imagination because that falls far too much into the realm of logic rather then the abstract. You can give me a character like Geralt of Rivia or Adam Jensen and although they have a stereotype to their personality I can also create my own character based upon my actions not the skills that I choose. Consequence falls on my shoulders not that of random numbers. That is something I feel I differ with. Maybe I am way off base on this point. But I don't write a lot on forums. So I apologize if this is some kind of red herring argument.

I agree that many games borrow rpg elements and tac them on to the game where it really does not make them Rpgs nor does it make sense. But I think that it also allows a person to roleplay a little deeper into a character then they would otherwise. It allows the player to invest in the decision making of that character even if it is an illusion. It is like this if my friend creates a character at level 5 in DnD and he allows me to play him. I have been given a template as to what he is and what path he may take. I can diverege from said path but his personality is likely there made by the friend who made him. His skills may be different but he is a character that I cannot change. I think I had a hard time explaining this and hopefully you pick up on what I am trying to get at.

You are right about the adventure game and role playing game. once again as with your meat Popsicle point. It isn't the same thing but on the same note it is a frozen and it does have wheels it just tastes a little different.

But I think what made fallout special to me was just the world itself. the mechanics didn't concern me as much nor my character(although they are very important to me) But what stood out and always has was how everything made me feel as if I was truly in a wasteland. I could go a whole game without really talking to people and just explore it. Finding treasures in the Sierra Army Depot or the vaults and then reading remnants of the previous world digging up old junk or hacking computer terminals to read old logs. This was the roleplaying for me and that I can do just as easily in Fallout 3, NV, and 4

You have given me a great deal to contemplate thank you!
 
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It's like an FOS that, rather then including death since that would make people frustrated, it works on the honor system asking people to quit if their health bar jumps down low enough
 
So that being said This is what fallout is now, an FPS RPG. Skills are really not required in an FPS. It just doesn't make sense to add a mathematical equation when no matter how low my gun skill is I can certainly still aim a gun and shoot it easily.

Uh? You can still aim a gun and shoot it easily in FO3-NV (or going back in time Deus Ex 1). It's not like you can't equip them if your stats aren't high enough (like, say, in Bloodborne) or your real-time shots have a x% to hit (like in Morrowind).

I see your point with the skills, but I think that I can just as easily create that sort of thing in my head just as I would playing DnD. All of my skills are tied to my Ability score so effectively if my character is Dexterous I know that he could potentially be acrobatic, stealthy, or a efficient pick pocket. Strength, I know i can use heavier weapons. I can likely carry more things, I can also jump higher, and throw farther etc, etc. As an old rpg player I know that. I don't need them to spell that out for me. That to me is dumbing it down. I don't need a set of skills to tell me how my character should behave Or what his limitations are. I can base that on my abilities or I can make that up as I go along.

Wait, am I reading this right? Are you saying that -for example- your physically weak character (1 ST, 1END) being actually physically weak in-game is dumbing down? :wtf: How do you roleplay incompetence if there's no consequences to the character's incompetence?
 
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