Bethesda's Lore Recons

Hardboiled Android said:
They'll force Obsidian to write a certain way like that.
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Don't know why'd they would force Obsidian to do that. Bethesda focuses on the East coast, Obsidian can probably do what they want with the West as long as it doesn't interfere with the East coast so Obsidian could make one of the endings canon if they wanted.
 
Well I don't think Bethesda cares which NV ending is canon, it has no effect on the East so it probably wouldn't matter much.
 
Big No said:
Well I don't think Bethesda cares which NV ending is canon, it has no effect on the East so it probably wouldn't matter much.
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I have to agree with this.

Avellone said in an interview that Bethesda gave them all of the western U.S. to work with when making NV, which stretches far beyond anything mentioned in Fallout 1/2, all the way to Montana, and the Texas/New Mexico border. They wouldn't have done that if they had plans to set a game there, or cared about what Obsidian did with it.

It's not going to effect them in any ways.
 
I heard that caravan dialog makes the NCR ending canon in New Vegas. That limits the options on potential future West Coat games, albeit I guess they could always retcon that out too, or have the NCR collapse or somesuch.

What bugs me is this; wasn't the Vertibird a post-war innovation by the Enclave? The Brotherhood having them is fine since they swiped them from Adams Air Force Base, but there are pre-war Vertibirds, including the one on top of Concord. Pretty sure that's a retcon.
 
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Ilosar said:
I heard that caravan dialog makes the NCR ending canon in New Vegas. That limits the options on potential future West Coat games, albeit I guess they could always retcon that out too, or have the NCR collapse or somesuch.

What bugs me is this; wasn't the Vertibird a post-war innovation by the Enclave? The Brotherhood having them is fine since they swiped them from Adams Air Force Base, but there are pre-war Vertibirds, including the one on top of Concord. Pretty sure that's a retcon.
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No, the idea that the NCR ending for NV is canon is because people are misinterpreting Kellogg's memories, which take place between Fallout 1-2, and theres a radio talking about the NCR forming, with people saying "we are all NCR citizens now". This is a memory of his childhood, but Kellogg is over 100 years old, which makes it being about NV impossible.

And no, the vertibird was a pre-war invention, that was only finished post-war. What we see pre-war in Fallout 4 were the testing prototype models.
 
No, Vertibirds weren't in general use at all in the preWar World, that is basically canon since forever ago, the only ones that you would find crashed before would be Enclave vehicles. But that has changed now, so to Bethesda a top secret Military prototype no equals them just being everywhere in the prewar world.


Ilosar said:
I heard that caravan dialog makes the NCR ending canon in New Vegas. That limits the options on potential future West Coat games, albeit I guess they could always retcon that out too, or have the NCR collapse or somesuch.

What bugs me is this; wasn't the Vertibird a post-war innovation by the Enclave? The Brotherhood having them is fine since they swiped them from Adams Air Force Base, but there are pre-war Vertibirds, including the one on top of Concord. Pretty sure that's a retcon.
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There is a LOT of vertibirds all around the map now. They are everywhere, on Lakes, next to radio towers, in the middle of nowhere, ontop of an overpass, on the intro sequence I think there is also one in the Glowing sea but I am not completely positive on that. Seems Bethesda just retconned the Vertibird into being the Helicopters of the Pre War world.
 
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Someguy37 said:
Ilosar said:
I heard that caravan dialog makes the NCR ending canon in New Vegas. That limits the options on potential future West Coat games, albeit I guess they could always retcon that out too, or have the NCR collapse or somesuch.

What bugs me is this; wasn't the Vertibird a post-war innovation by the Enclave? The Brotherhood having them is fine since they swiped them from Adams Air Force Base, but there are pre-war Vertibirds, including the one on top of Concord. Pretty sure that's a retcon.
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No, the idea that the NCR ending for NV is canon is because people are misinterpreting Kellogg's memories, which take place between Fallout 1-2, and theres a radio talking about the NCR forming, with people saying "we are all NCR citizens now". This is a memory of his childhood, but Kellogg is over 100 years old.

And no, the vertibird was a pre-war invention, that was only finished post-war. What we see pre-war in Fallout 4 were the testing prototype models.
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No, that's not it, I get that Kelogg's memories are ancient. I didn't hear it myself, but some people say that dialog from some caravan guards heavily hint that NCR won.

And testing prototype models, when you see one flying overhead as the bombs fall and another crashes on Concord (can't be the same one, they go in opposite directions)? That makes two of these test prototypes in flight at the same time in a very small area. There's another crashed in the Glowing Sea. So I'm not convinced at all.
 
Big No said:
I don't really know where to stand on Bethesda acknowledging New Vegas. If they were to acknowledge it, then some might complain they're messing with the West Coast. But if they don't, there might be complaints of them ignoring Obsidians' contribution to the franchise. I personally don't know which to agree with.
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Bethesda should not ignore Obsidian from a gameplay and characterization (maybe even writing) standpoint because despite the fact that NV was crippled by an unstable piece of outdated garbage, they added more personality to companions, they balanced out level system, and difficulty levels were more punishing (mainly Hardcore mode).

Bethesda should ignore Obsidian from lore standpoint until they hire competent writers.
 
Walpknut said:
No, Vertibirds weren't in general use at all in the preWar World, that is basically canon since forever ago, the only ones that you would find crashed before would be Enclave vehicles. But that has changed now, so to Bethesda a top secret Military prototype no equals them just being everywhere in the prewar world.
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No one said veribirds were in general use. It also wasn't top secret either.

Todd even brought this up in some interview awhile back, talking about how Boston was a big military testing ground. that is where the T-60 PA comes from.
 
It was top secret actually. All signs point to general people only knowing of Vertibirds from the Enclave onwards. The Anchorage DLC even states that the Vertibird used in the simulation is an anachronism as they weren't in general use so Bethesda seemed to know they weren't meant to be Prewar tech back then, but they don't really care now.

Also, there are A LOT, not just a few, A LOT of crashed Vertibirds all around the Commonwealth, it's almost as if they were extremely common there, people were just crashing them all around the place. There are even some on top of buildings. The precense of Vertibirds in FO4 is extremely incosistent with stablished canon. Bethesda can make up all the dumb retcons and handwaves they want, but the fact they have to do those proves they just fudged the lore.
 
Nothing points to the general populace only knowing about vertibirds until post enclave actually, since basically no one from before the war was alive to actually talk about it.

And the non-use in Anchorage proves only that the prototype models weren't in use in Anchorage because they were still being tested. Also, being used in testing =/= in general use.

You are aware that when testing new guns/planes/tanks they send them out on actual military operations, cvery controlled ones mind you, to actually see how they perform. Being used in testing =/= used in general use.

And yeah, its almost like they were testing it out, thus they made a number of them to make sure there wasn't some inherant flaw in its system, and so multiple pilots could use them to see how they flew and give feedback. Its almost like how they do it in real life!

Fallout 4 has a lot of problems, but this is something a kid in elementary school could explain.
 
So let me get this straight, they didn't send out a Vertibird to one of the most important conflicts of the great war where the T-51 Power Armor was also revealed first but they instead just kept flying them all over Boston instead? And your justification is that "when testing new guns/planes/tanks they send them out on actual military operations" Even tho they literary didn't send any to any major conflict and just kep them in the Commonwealth where they were conveniently just all over the place but never stated before.... They also made Power Armor that was never used in any conflict depicted on the series timeline....

"Testing it out" what a convenient handwave, and it needs to be repeated over and over to explain the massive amount of them in the Commonwealth. It's the most transparent handwave imaginable. They could've easily justified them as the BOS having casualties or them being fleeing Enclave remnants, but they chose to make them all prewar just because and then they proceeded to retcon and handwave it in extremely clunky ways.

Even an elementary school kid could see how flimsy that "They were just testing out a bunch of them prewar despite previous games stating they weren't in common use" handwave is.

Also if Boston held so many Military Prototypes why was it only targeted by a single Nuke? I mean if they flew the Vertibirds so often and in such numbers to find dozens of them post war then it couldn't be a secret from the Chinese, why isn't it like the Boneyard?
 
kelveen said:
LiveOnTheEdge said:
Would bottle caps be relatively easy to find?
Wouldn't a lot of that stuff have been destroyed or wouldn't they be pretty easily damaged and degraded over the years?
Not to mention how bulky they would all get depending on how much you were carrying.
I guess there might be bottling plants active or remnants of them. But then would creating new bottle caps like that
be like creating counterfeit money? Or would it be regulated somehow even though bottle caps do have a primary function
not related to money systems/bartering?
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I can't think of anything else in the series that would have been a good use for currency. Currency was needed.
You cant use Tulips, Sticks, or grain of sand as currency, obviously. Also, F1 was at a stage of early rebuilding. Theres not much machinery, active machinery, requiring tinkering etc etc. I thought it was a well thought, logical use of currency.

Talking about regulations etc etc was to early in the archaic build up of the world. The other alternative was a trade basis, where they discuss and find a middle ground on perceived values of the item (rather than currency), but i am not sure how that could have been implemented during that time.
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Actually by Fallout 2, the money are NCR dollars "$" that appear to be gold coins or something.
And there's even an in-game joke quest about it with bottle caps in it. I checked the wiki and the description for the item is given:
"These are worthless bottle caps. You've heard that at one time they were used as money, though you suspect its only a story."

New Vegas also has caps, but mostly because Fallout 3 did. And even then, the NCR and the Legion were minting their own money. The NCR had paper bills while the Legion had gold and silver coins.

There's a side quest where one of the merchant companies ask you to shut down the Sunset Sarsaparilla's bottle cap press because they don't want the currency to devalue any further. But that's really almost just lampshading the problem. The Mojave has no currency of its own, which sounds incredibly stupid and unwise, especially given that if the NCR can mass produce AR-15 style rifles for its infantry, then a bottle cap press is simply no problem technologically.
 
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Walpknut said:
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>They didn't send out an incomplete, and potentially deadly, flying vehicle, hooked up with a nuclear reactor, into a large scale battlezone, where it could get easily shot up and destroyed, probably killing tons of soldiers when the core detonated due to not having enough armor plating, or some other fault they may not know about, and instead did a few test runs in Boston, a place as far from the Chinese as possible.
Yeah, that's actually a smart move. Sending it into battle to test it doesn't mean sending it into the largest battle of the war against China before testing it in far smaller, and far more controlled, confrontations to make sure it wasn't a deathtrap beforehand.

And you keep making the "NOT IN COMMON USE!" argument, when testing =/= common use, and thus the argument makes no sense.

Also if Boston held so many Military Prototypes why was it only targeted by a single Nuke?
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It wasn't, actually playing the game before you talk about it would help. There are at least two other nuclear detonation sites, one in Boston proper, in the Cambridge area.


Also, who says the vertibird was meant to be a secret from the Chinese? Power armor, stealth boys, Liberty Prime, those were secret, but a vertibird is just a VTOL aircraft, of which, many types already exist.
 
You just flip flop on your excuses so much. Now them not sending them to a battle zone is what makes sense, yet you literary said the opposite before. Also flying those "incomplete, and potentially deadly, flying vehicle, hooked up with a nuclear reactor" over civilian areas is smart? THat is just stupid, makes even less sense. If something they would probably fly those over unpopulated areas like a Desert, not over posh cul de sac suburbs.

Also I played the game, I beat it, it wasn't hit by that many nukes and the city is mostly unscathed, specially the Military forts. Most of the damage is only on the Glowing sea.

Who says they were secret? The previous games? If there were already regular VTOL aircrafts why not use those then? Why contradict canon senselessly with Vertibirds suddenly being so common all around Boston?
 
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