Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Why should the conflict be a fair one?
Bethesda's Lore Recons
- Thread starter arcticflocky
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Antediluvian as Feck
Because if it isn't, you just end up with a New Vegas scenario, where basically no one picked The Legion because of how hilariously one sided the game's content was in favor of the NCR. Which in turn ruins any sort of point one could make about the equal validity/grey morality of each side's stance, because, if all sides were equally grey, there would be an equal amount of people supporting them, and thus an equal amount of in universe power, and in-game content, for each. Instead of the interesting grey morality plotline the game should have had, The Legion is painted as the clear cut badguy, worse then any other option.
This is actually something Fallout 4 did reasonably well. The BoS, Railroad, and Institute, have roughly equal amounts of power/content, and because of it, I've already seen more people saying they sided with The Institute then I ever have seen people say they sided with the Legion, and more people defending The Institute's ideals then I have The Legion.
Not all options have to be equally appealing. You have 3 "good options" (NCR, House, Yes man) and one "bad option" legion. I would say it makes perfect sense for there to be unbalance in what appeals to the player, but that is in no way reflective upon the power of particular factions. Pretty much everywhere in the game you see or hear how corrupt and weak the NCR has become and that they are spread way too thin to effectively counteract Legion incursions into their territories.
If anything, Caesars Legion comes off as the stronger side, owing their first defeat at Hoover Dam only to their lack of operational flexibility without officers(Which they would surely correct before the rematch) and actions of the Rangers and 1st recon, and not the bulk of NCR army.
And I fail to see the equal power of factions in F4. The BoS comes rolling with a flying aircraft carrier, "helicopters" and "tanks", while the Minutemen... Don't exist until you revive them (and still have nothing until you help them spread) and the Railroad is a dozen guys strong hiding in a crypt under a church. The Institute is everywhere with their spies and coursers acting as hitmen who can take out pretty much anyone single-handedly.
I would say that without the involvement of the player we have two strong factions ready to square it off with two more lost somewhere in between the titans' legs trying to pick at their ankles.
If anything, Caesars Legion comes off as the stronger side, owing their first defeat at Hoover Dam only to their lack of operational flexibility without officers(Which they would surely correct before the rematch) and actions of the Rangers and 1st recon, and not the bulk of NCR army.
And I fail to see the equal power of factions in F4. The BoS comes rolling with a flying aircraft carrier, "helicopters" and "tanks", while the Minutemen... Don't exist until you revive them (and still have nothing until you help them spread) and the Railroad is a dozen guys strong hiding in a crypt under a church. The Institute is everywhere with their spies and coursers acting as hitmen who can take out pretty much anyone single-handedly.
I would say that without the involvement of the player we have two strong factions ready to square it off with two more lost somewhere in between the titans' legs trying to pick at their ankles.
You forgot that those 120 thousand people would be spread over almost 8 million square killometers, it's not like they were all focused in one location.
Yes, many people here criticised that part. The Legion was not as fleshed out like the NCR. Many players that even liked the Legion can agree with that.
That's not the point though.
The point is, at least you HAD the choice here! That's what counts. We can honor effort! Even more importantly, no matter if you joined the Legion, House, NCR or going with Yes Man, the game gave you many ways on how to solve certain situations how you saw fitt. Sometimes with bigger sometimes with smaller consequences. One example, Benny and the Legion. I have rarely seen an RPG which gave me so many ways how to deal with a particular situation! And I really can't say enough how well that was done in New Vegas. Even with all it's short comings, the Legion, Obsidians weakest point in Vegas, was still way better than anything Beth has done since Morrowind.
In the case of F3 for example, you had pretty much no choice but to fight the Enclave which was hilariously badly writen as well. I can't comment on the details of Fallout 4, since I havn't played it, so I will give it the benefit of the doubt here and say, good Job Beth, for giving people at least 2-3 factions to join and work with! And I heard you can even betray some of them! Sadly, a lot of people here mentioned though that the writing and quest design inside those factions leaves a lot to be desired. Almost no choices and concequences - outside of joining it, lots of badly writen dialog, and rather bland quest design. Of course, just what I have read here.
However, just from what I can read here, the story of F4 actually has some potential. But so did the one in F3. Which makes it even more sad why Bethesda hasn't spend at least a bit more effort in to it!
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Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
Bands of hunter gatherers probably numbering in the hundreds managed to colonize from Anchorage to Tierra del Fuego within five centuries
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
And? you don't need massive communities to survive (albeit FO4 goes too far into the other direction with its 2 people settlements); depending your supply situation post-War, having less people might actually be more beneficial to the rebirth of civilization. 120 000 people is more than enough to ensure that civilization lives in America; within a few generations, assuming no outstanding casualty rates and that there were survivors on the surface which there were, you could be back to close to half a million human beings in the country. Sure, you're not going to have national TV from Washington to San Francisco anytime soon, but that hardly means humanity is doomed is it?
Also, about the Legion, I'm honestly not going to defend them. They are consistently portrayed as a bunch of murderers and rapists, with their leader being little more than a power-hungry, short-tempered manchild assisted by a complete sociopath and a brute that is smart but only cares about killing stuff. They tried to give them a good side with the ''oh, but they manage to keep 4 States peaceful despite being a roving army with machetes!'' BS, but I seriously never bought it. NCR is interesting. House is interesting. The ability for the player to say screw it and take over is very interesting. The Legion are basically just villains you can side with, akin to the Master.
On that front, FO4 does a bit of a better job with the Institute. They still fall short of their potential and end up being the Think Tank but with a bit less crazy, but at least their NPCs don't have constant murder-boners and Father serves as a fairly effective ''face'' for the faction.
The Brotherhood might also not be villains, but their questline makes it very clear they are not heroes either, despite being mostly staffed by people with decent intentions. I felt pretty bad for all the people caught in the crossfire of their crusade, and they might eventually come knocking to Goodneighbor...
The Minutemen are kinda just there. They are good guys who protect people. And there ends their characterization. Doesn't help that their ''face'', Preston, is boring as sin too, or that you seemingly cannot start on their questline in earnest before you tell Father where he can shove it.
The Railroad are just a bit lame if you ask me. I don't really get why all these people would care about android rights first and foremost.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
You don't like the Legion? How dare you profligate! Degenerates like you belong on a cross!
Monco
The Duck of Death
Obviously the legion isn't nearly as fleshed out as it could have (or really should have) been and as it is it's definitely not a very good choice. For example I though the whole entire legion being misogynistic and basically treating women like slaves or breeders was completely unnecessary. What possible purpose does that serve? You're basically just denying 50% of your population the chance to contribute to society. On the other hand, I don't really doubt that the authoritarian, autocratic legion could keep the peace, after all for the vast majority of human civilization almost all governments were autocratic, and your average citizen had basically no rights.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
This is mainly due to the concept of minimax. Caesar does this in order to utilize their "potential" and increase the Legions might. For women that is bearing children. One women can in her lifetime give birth to a dozen or more children. Children born into the Legion are more loyal and devote to Caesar then those that were "reeducated" from tribes and non Legion settlements. While the death of one Legion solider doesn't mean much, if anything, to Caesar but the loss of one child bearing women can mean the loss of a dozen or more future loyal soldiers. Which is way Caesar has it that women are forbidden from combat. While many legionaries express a downright condescending and sexist attitude towards women because of it but at the end of the day both sexes are slaves to Caesar. Caesar himself isn't really sexist but treats both sexes as pawns on a chessboard who's only sole purpose is to serve, live and die for him. Which to me makes him more evil!
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Ilosar
Vault Fossil
I understand keeping their people on a short leash when the Legion is around. But it is repeatedly described as a roving army (indeed, Ceasar wants to invade Vegas in order to change just that and give them a stronghold) and yet covers more than 3 States's worth of territory, which is, what, the size of France or something? That's a huge territory to police, when you consider that they have almost no technology whatsoever and a very primitize organization, they should be overstretched to the breaking point. Even moreso in the ludicrously dangerous Fallout world; what are a couple of Legion recuits with machetes going to do against a nest of Deathclaw or something like that? At least most other factions have their mooks use freaking guns. And their economy is somehow strong, despite the fact that the majority of their population are either child soldiers or sex slaves. Yes, yes, slave labor, but that doesn't solve all problems. Even the Romans didn't wholy depend on slave labor, and had their men and allies occupy professions other than soldiering.
I also found the hardcore sexism a bit weird. I mean, keeping the women in the backline so as to not endanger them and have more babies? Alright, I can buy that. But making all the Legion territory a no woman's land where they are raped left and right seems a bit overkill. It makes the Legion appear as little more than better organized raiders, and hell even those have females in their ranks.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Fuck it, I'll play devils advocate. Women(who aren't slaves) living in Legion territory usually live the same as non Legion men. They are free to go about their lives so long as they don't interfere with Legion business and obey the rare request that they Legion may give out to their subjects. The Legion primary enslave women from tribes or outside Legion territory such as NCR citizens, Mojave locals or wastelanders. However it should also be noted that no one, man or women, is free in the Legion. Non Legion males and females living in Legion territory are deemed subjects of the Legion. They have no rights or say in any matters regarding the Legion what so ever and most obey the Legion laws and Caesar will. Most of those living in Legion territory don't seem to mind mainly they never felt that they had any rights or say in anything anyway and that what Raul tells you is true, the southwest was one of the most unlawful and dangerous places in the wasteland. Due to Caesar eradicating most of the raider tribes and bringing some semblance of law, order and peace he is seen as a harsh but benevolent lord by many living in Legion territory. Its a damn shame that the Legion wasn't fleshed out more. They would have made for some interesting villains.
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Irwin John Finster
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I think the Legion was very well written, Caesar was exquisitely voice-acted and written, and overall it was just a damn good faction. It was the antithesis of the NCR as well as House. It was an alien, foreign entity that stood out from all the other factions of the wasteland. As a faction, it is hard to find a better written one.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
I agree. They were undeveloped due to time constraints but much better implemented than the Institute I think.
Shardik
Still Mildly Glowing
I agree with Ranger Boo - the Legion could have been fleshed out better, and probably would have been if Obsidian had been given more time to develop New Vegas. It's a shame, really; I think Obsidian kind of missed an opportunity with Lonesome Road. They could have maybe given us more background info on the Legion by cutting back on the amount of metaphysical mumbo jumbo that Ulysses spouted, and instead have given us a chance to talk to him more about his time with the Legion. I wouldn't have minded seeing more dialog with Joshua Graham in Honest Hearts about his Legion experiences as well.
ETA - I do agree with you about Caesar the character, though. He was exceptionally well written and portrayed.
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Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
The thing is, Caesar wanted to be brutal and "bad". He needed to create an utter antithesis in order to meld with the NCR and create a true Dialectic.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Well judging from the New Vegas Collector Edition guide that I have, Caesar always had a angry, sore and narcissistic personality with contempt and anger towards the Followers as he never felt that he belonged with them and blamed them for it instead of his shortcomings. Charming guy.
But he is a man with a vision. Won't deny that.
I eat supermutants
I'm your friend, Jesus.
One of my gripes are Bethsoft's Mr. Handys. I mean I feel like they work too well. The thing is over the years I've become for analytical over details. Fallout is no exception. It may seem nitpicky and weird but something I've always taken away from the Fallout 1 intro is the ad for Mr. Handy. Shouldn't they just be Roombas for the nuclear SCIENCE! age era? I was always under the impression that they are barely functional as they were before the war and further is a lame utility for a very small group of people after. Also I noticed in the intro there was a can of Mr. Handy fuel sitting in the laundry room and was there 210 years later....so Codsworth didn't need to refuel but fuel was a tangible source of energy for your new baby changing vacuum cleaner? What about the eightybajillion other Handys or Protectotrons? At least some of the other robots drop fusion cores, giving them some source of tangible energy but the Handys in particular spout a visible flame out of there ass but Handy fuel seems rather rare, as it should considering the end of the world was caused by a resource war, but why does it have a fuel can? Just a small detail that has bothered me lately. Though small details are what, sometimes, separate a flushed out world versus a nonsensical mess.
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The fuel can is for the Mr Handy flamethrower, not its power core.
How was the Legion alien in any way? All he did was the same shit ever raider/slaver group does, but throw a dumb roman theme over it. He is literally no different then Ashur was in The Pitt.
Don't forget, their economy is not only strong, but Legion coinage is apparently worth more then the NCR dollar, and, according to Sawyer, The Legion doesn't even mine for gold, they literally must melt down any gold scraps from before the war they find.
Yes, the people who literally don't mine, and whose territory exists in an area that's 90% empty desert, are apparently able to find enough gold scraps in the few ruined cities they control, to be able to match a large nation that DOES mine for resources, in economic power.
-The BoS are limited in the fact they are in hostile territory, with most of their chapter back in D.C, and basically have no supplies beyond the ones they brought with them, and no means to get more due to D.C. being so far away. On top of that, their main base is a giant flammable balloon with little in the way of defenses, that's able to be taken down by ancient artillery pieces of all things. The BoS has the same problems they always had, they are vastly outnumbered, and, as we saw in New Vegas, being out numbered can be a deathblow to them, even with all of their tech. There are even radiant quests to go strong arm the various Commonwealth farms into "donating" food because the BoS lack the supply lines needed to feed themselves otherwise.
-The Institute is limited in that there's not a lot of them, they have massive power supply and resource problems, and have very limited Intel on what actually goes on outside their underground base. On top of that, their main fighting force, gen 1 and 2 synths, are very squishy, and have fairly poor weaponry.
-The Railroad lacks the physical power of the BoS or Institute, but make up for it with guerrilla tactics, and large amounts of subterfuge. They also have a fairly expansive systems of safehouses and agents, that go all the way from Boston to at least D.C.(Father Clifford in Rivet City, Manya Vargas in Megaton, Herbert Dashwood in Tenpenny Tower, and Tulip in the Underworld are known Railroad agents). And the compartmentalized nature of their organization, where not even Desdemona knows the location of every safe house they have, makes taking them out incredibly difficult, since no one knows where everyone else is, allowing them to constantly regroup and attack long after any conventional force would have been defeated.
-The Minutemen lack things until you build them up, but they are meant to be the Yes Man ending for Fallout 4, and that was all about you building up the mojave in the way you saw fit. But they have the same advantage against the BoS and Institute that the NCR had when fighting the BoS back west, numbers. The Minutemen are the common people, who can outnumber any of the other factions 20 to 1, if built up.
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MercenarySnake
Kept you waiting huh?
I found this while looking on that Fallout 4 RPG Codex thread
