Bethesda's Lore Recons

[Mr Fish]

On the legion debate happening, just remember that Caesar does not intend for his Legion to stay stagnant. The Legion is a constantly evolving nation. If Caesar wins then he intends to bring the best out of NCR and the Legion while shedding the worst of both. If Caesar loses and Lanius takes his place and wins then the Legion may very well stay stagnant. If Lanius is convinced to return back to his lands then he says he will focus on strengthening the Legion and promises he will return but Lanius will now be the new Caesar and will need to take on a different leadership position and focus on strengthening the lands he control rather than just expanding his territory. If Lanius and Caesar dies then I'm sure there are people over in Flagstaff that will take over the Legion. Boone for some reason says that Caesar has people next in line who will take up the mantle if Caesar were to pass away and that they reside in Flagstaff.

The only way I can see the Legion remaining stagnant is if Lanius wins the Mojave campaign but Caesar passes away. If that happens then Lanius doesn't learn anything and there is no one around to control his ass.

My point is that the Legion is going to change, again and again and again. And when the Legion falls apart on itself something new will be born out of the Legion, several new things, that may shed the shitty aspects of the Legion and keep what worked.

Hail Caesar, yo.

On a semi-related note:
I played through SomeGuy's quest mods for FNV, the Bounties series along with Russel. And man that guy tries to forcefeed moral ambiguity with the elegance of drunk gorilla but he doesn't even try to paint the Legion in any kind of good light at all. Like, we get it, the Legion are brutal. We understood that when we saw Nipton. It's quite clear that the Legion are brutal as all hell on the frontier and that inside of their lands there are some that are cruel. Got it a long time ago SomeGuy. I hunger for Legion content and when I finally get some it's just "LEGION R BAD GUIZ!!!11!". Ugh...

 

[RangerBoo]

On the legion debate happening, just remember that Caesar does not intend for his Legion to stay stagnant. The Legion is a constantly evolving nation. If Caesar wins then he intends to bring the best out of NCR and the Legion while shedding the worst of both. If Caesar loses and Lanius takes his place and wins then the Legion may very well stay stagnant. If Lanius is convinced to return back to his lands then he says he will focus on strengthening the Legion and promises he will return but Lanius will now be the new Caesar and will need to take on a different leadership position and focus on strengthening the lands he control rather than just expanding his territory. If Lanius and Caesar dies then I'm sure there are people over in Flagstaff that will take over the Legion. Boone for some reason says that Caesar has people next in line who will take up the mantle if Caesar were to pass away and that they reside in Flagstaff.

The only way I can see the Legion remaining stagnant is if Lanius wins the Mojave campaign but Caesar passes away. If that happens then Lanius doesn't learn anything and there is no one around to control his ass.

My point is that the Legion is going to change, again and again and again. And when the Legion falls apart on itself something new will be born out of the Legion, several new things, that may shed the shitty aspects of the Legion and keep what worked.

Hail Caesar, yo.

On a semi-related note:
I played through SomeGuy's quest mods for FNV, the Bounties series along with Russel. And man that guy tries to forcefeed moral ambiguity with the elegance of drunk gorilla but he doesn't even try to paint the Legion in any kind of good light at all. Like, we get it, the Legion are brutal. We understood that when we saw Nipton. It's quite clear that the Legion are brutal as all hell on the frontier and that inside of their lands there are some that are cruel. Got it a long time ago SomeGuy. I hunger for Legion content and when I finally get some it's just "LEGION R BAD GUIZ!!!11!". Ugh...

Well he tells you up front that if your a Legion aligned player you won't like his mods much and that he mods for fun. If you played them and you hate then uninstall as he says. He also say upfront that he is a drunk and mods drunk. His mods do paint the NCR in a morally grey and ambiguous light though. Plus I don't really see how a bunch of women hating, child slaving, mass raping and genocidal man children can be portray as anything but evil to be honest.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

I think the Legion was very well written, Caesar was exquisitely voice-acted and written, and overall it was just a damn good faction. It was the antithesis of the NCR as well as House. It was an alien, foreign entity that stood out from all the other factions of the wasteland. As a faction, it is hard to find a better written one.

How was the Legion alien in any way? All he did was the same shit ever raider/slaver group does, but throw a dumb roman theme over it. He is literally no different then Ashur was in The Pitt.

You're asking how an organized, militaristic, authoritarian faction of people attempting to take control of the entire Mojave Wasteland and rebuild it in the model of Ancient Rome due to the fanatical belief that it is the necessary means by which society may rebuild itself without suffering the folly of pre-war civilization is different from random raiders and slavers who knock off caravans for drugs?

I don't know where I'd even begin explaining that.

 

[MercenarySnake]

I think the Legion was very well written, Caesar was exquisitely voice-acted and written, and overall it was just a damn good faction. It was the antithesis of the NCR as well as House. It was an alien, foreign entity that stood out from all the other factions of the wasteland. As a faction, it is hard to find a better written one.

How was the Legion alien in any way? All he did was the same shit ever raider/slaver group does, but throw a dumb roman theme over it. He is literally no different then Ashur was in The Pitt.

You're asking how an organized, militaristic, authoritarian faction of people attempting to take control of the entire Mojave Wasteland and rebuild it in the model of Ancient Rome due to the fanatical belief that it is the necessary means by which society may rebuild itself without suffering the folly of pre-war civilization is different from random raiders and slavers who knock off caravans for drugs?

I don't know where I'd even begin explaining that.

Wow, put Caesar's Legion in the same boat? These raiders are your average junkies looking to murder and ransack caravans for the sole purpose of "fun and drugz maaannn". They're not even that intelligent and probably snort the bone marrow from all the dead skeletons lying around Boston. Meanwhile the Legion are organized with their own rules and positions among other things I'm sure others have already explained well enough.(This wasn't directed at you Irwin I was just trying to add to what you guys were saying.)

 

[Someguy37]

You're asking how an organized, militaristic, authoritarian faction of people attempting to take control of the entire Mojave Wasteland and rebuild it in the model of Ancient Rome due to the fanatical belief that it is the necessary means by which society may rebuild itself without suffering the folly of pre-war civilization is different from random raiders and slavers who knock off caravans for drugs?

I don't know where I'd even begin explaining that.

Except the actual culture wasn't going to be based off of Ancient Rome. Sawyer said himself the Legion ONLY uses the Roman trapping in their military ranks, and have none of the underlying civilian culture behind it. Caesar doesn't give a flying shit about trying to mimic Rome outside of the propagandist parts where he is made out to be a god like figure.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar's_Legion

"Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.

It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture, the rest being indoctrinated conscripts from cultures that were honestly less well-developed than anything in Gaul. Gauls are pretty sophisticated compared to the 80+ tribes. Gauls could read the Latin or Greek alphabets (Gallic language, obviously), had extensive permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, and a whole load of poo poo that groups like the Blackfoots never had.

What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values.

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture."

I found this while looking on that Fallout 4 RPG Codex thread

Spoiler

View attachment 2434

This guys post is wrong just about from the get-go
-The idea of wild FEV was discredited ages ago.
-He is also wrong about Big MT's teleportation. The whole purpose of the satellite was to serve as the teleporter device, which is why you always transport back to it when leaving Big MT. So even they needed a fairly large machine to teleport as well.
-The Institute never tried to cure all diseases, so they didn't get outsmarted by anything. They are robotics people, who focused on robotics, not disease cures.
-The Institute didn't take 210 years to develop a cure for FEV. They only started working on FEV around 100 years ago, and only one of them sought to make a cure for it a few months ago.
-The idea that AI's were made pre-war comes solely from the Fallout bible, which is non-canon. And the only actual AI from the original games, Skynet, is so hilariously broken not even it knows its actual history.

So really, the only point he makes that relies on actual lore, instead of his fanon, is the stuff about the Shi. And even then, The Institute has the ability to make robots in mass. Nothing says they couldn't make vertibirds or repair power armor if they wanted to. They just have no reason too, given that they are underground, and thus have no purpose for flying machines, and they have robots to do all the heavy lifting PA would give them.

 

[Ilosar]

Let's not downplay the achievement that are the Synths. AIs like Skynet (which is not functionning properly to say the least) or ZAX computers are one thing. Gen 3 Synths are basically undistinguishable from humans except if you start chopping them in pieces or if they are programmed as a Courser. It's implied they can even create Synths that can grow and definitely learn, like Synth!Shaun. That's pretty damn impressive. Albeit sentience on robots IS a pre-war thing now, just look at Curie and Codsworth, they aren't humans but are clearly sentient and able to form emotional bonds even if it wasn't part of their programming.

The rest of their research does stink, true. The entire FEV project went nowhere in close to a century (minus Virgil's cure) and only served to make the Commonwealth an even worse place. Their weapons division created the worst energy weapons in the Commonwealth. Their bioscience is more interested in making gorillas than breathing life in the Wasteland it seems. The SRB gets outsmarted by a bunch of basement dwellers whose tech guy is a junkie. Their reactor is starting to fall apart. The other divisions obviously have a very hard time catching up to Robotics.

As for the topic of the thread, it seems like the Cambridge Polymer Center was written by someone not up to speed on the lore. Not only does it contain the infamous terminal mentioning pre-war Jet, the greeting robot says that they helped design Liberty Prime, the robot who went on to liberate Anchorage. Well, Liberty Prime never moved from his berth in the Pentagon until the BoS reactivated him, certainly never went to Anchorage, and I'd assume if it had Prime's existence would be common knowledge given that it is a propaganda machine first and foremost.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

As for the topic of the thread, it seems like the Cambridge Polymer Center was written by someone not up to speed on the lore. Not only does it contain the infamous terminal mentioning pre-war Jet

Just curious - does the terminal mention pre-war Jet by name?

 

[Someguy37]

As for the topic of the thread, it seems like the Cambridge Polymer Center was written by someone not up to speed on the lore. Not only does it contain the infamous terminal mentioning pre-war Jet, the greeting robot says that they helped design Liberty Prime, the robot who went on to liberate Anchorage. Well, Liberty Prime never moved from his berth in the Pentagon until the BoS reactivated him, certainly never went to Anchorage, and I'd assume if it had Prime's existence would be common knowledge given that it is a propaganda machine first and foremost.

I do believe you are confused, the terminal mentioning pre-war jet was in the Vault-Tec regional HQ, not the Cambridge labs.

Also, people did know about Prime. There are terminals in Fallout 3 mentioning that people found out about Prime and leaked details about it before Anchorage was over. the greeting is very likely just a recording made based on the fact he WAS supposed to go there.

 

[Atomic Postman]

As for the topic of the thread, it seems like the Cambridge Polymer Center was written by someone not up to speed on the lore. Not only does it contain the infamous terminal mentioning pre-war Jet, the greeting robot says that they helped design Liberty Prime, the robot who went on to liberate Anchorage. Well, Liberty Prime never moved from his berth in the Pentagon until the BoS reactivated him, certainly never went to Anchorage, and I'd assume if it had Prime's existence would be common knowledge given that it is a propaganda machine first and foremost.

Bethesda does not care whatsoever at this point, they'll contradict themselves and make up whatever bullshit they want without stopping for a second. They've come right out and said that they're happy to just let their writers do whatever they want with the lore.

It really does seem to me that Bethesda lacks respect for the Fallout IP. They very clearly care about TES a great deal more, and as much as you might want to shit on Skyrim, at least it didn't ruin TES's lore. I'm not sure I'd expect anything else though, since TES is their baby and Fallout is more like the adopted kid who's real parents died in a car crash.

 

[The-Artist-64]

It doesn't have to be near a major population center to save a few thousand people.

True, but Vaults 13 and 15 were literally located in the middle of the desert. There is just NOTHING out there IRL, and theres no city ruins, or anything mentioned as being just outside the Vaults, to indicate there was some "Fallout universe only" city nearby.

By the time the US got confirmation that China was launching nukes, and was able to sound the alarm sirens, people would have had, realistically, only a few minutes TOPS to reach the Vaults, and given the location of vaults 13 and 15, and the lack of anything resembling a city near them, its very unrealistic more then a handful of people could have reached them before being killed. Let alone the populations we see/are implied by Fallout 1/2.

The Fallout Bible tried to reconcile some of these problems, but Avellone also made up some rather dumb vault experiments, such as the airborne drug vault we got in Fallout 3, which only further complicated the issue by making The Enclave seem just stupidly evil, instead of wanting to do valid tests.

Fallout's vault lore/design has just been broken from the beginning.


Unrelated, but Fallout 1/2 also had a very critical design flaw that Fo3/NV/4 retconed. The outward opening vault door is a laughably idiotic design choice. If any part of the entrance cave collapsed, and fell in the vault door track, it would prevent the door from being able to open, and the vault dwellers would have no means of fixing it, since they would all trapped inside. The inward opening doors of newer Fallout games are actually the more sensible option, since any part of that could break is located on the inside, and is this repairable.

I think Vault 15 was for the people of Hopeville and other neighboring communities. I like to think that Vault 8 was nearby Carson City, one of my favorite towns, but unfortunately it's two hours away.

Nevertheless, that's all very true.

Bethesda just completely ruined the concept though. Really? 7 vaults per city? It's ridiculous.

 

[Someguy37]

I think Vault 15 was for the people of Hopeville and other neighboring communities. I like to think that Vault 8 was nearby Carson City, one of my favorite towns, but unfortunately it's two hours away.


Bethesda just completely ruined the concept though. Really? 7 vaults per city? It's ridiculous.

If Vault 15 located where it was in Fallout 1 that might be true, but Fallout 2 moved it, Shady, and Vault 13, MUCH farther west then they were in Fallout 1.


Actually, that makes the most sense. You would want to build several vaults near the large population centers in order to ensure the maximum number of people got to them. LA, Vegas, San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, D.C., NYC, Boston, etc. etc., aka every place a Fallout game would actually take place, would be where 99% of the Vaults SHOULD have been built.

No one would built vaults in the north, or 90% of the Midwest, because basically no one lives theres, and large parts of the southern half of America, such as everything east of Vegas and west of like Dallas/Ft. worth would have had only 2-3 Vaults, due to being mostly desert with few large cities.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I think Vault 15 was for the people of Hopeville and other neighboring communities. I like to think that Vault 8 was nearby Carson City, one of my favorite towns, but unfortunately it's two hours away.


Bethesda just completely ruined the concept though. Really? 7 vaults per city? It's ridiculous.

If Vault 15 located where it was in Fallout 1 that might be true, but Fallout 2 moved it, Shady, and Vault 13, MUCH farther west then they were in Fallout 1.


Actually, that makes the most sense. You would want to build several vaults near the large population centers in order to ensure the maximum number of people got to them. LA, Vegas, San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, D.C., NYC, Boston, etc. etc., aka every place a Fallout game would actually take place, would be where 99% of the Vaults SHOULD have been built.

No one would built vaults in the north, or 90% of the Midwest, because basically no one lives theres, and large parts of the southern half of America, such as everything east of Vegas and west of like Dallas/Ft. worth would have had only 2-3 Vaults, due to being mostly desert with few large cities.

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

 

[Someguy37]

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

they do if you want enough people to be able to reach them before the bombs hit to actually have a valid sample size for your test.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

they do if you want enough people to be able to reach them before the bombs hit to actually have a valid sample size for your test.

Again, it has been shown again and again that some people live in them before hand. This makes it possible to have big enough sizes without being near city centers.

 

[MercenarySnake]

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

they do if you want enough people to be able to reach them before the bombs hit to actually have a valid sample size for your test.

Again, it has been shown again and again that some people live in them before hand. This makes it possible to have big enough sizes without being near city centers.

They had drills to evacuate to the vaults until many people stopped taking them seriously when it finally happened.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

they do if you want enough people to be able to reach them before the bombs hit to actually have a valid sample size for your test.

Again, it has been shown again and again that some people live in them before hand. This makes it possible to have big enough sizes without being near city centers.

They had drills to evacuate to the vaults until many people stopped taking them seriously when it finally happened.

I know that. But keep in mind that not all vaults had these drills.

 

[MercenarySnake]

Vaults don't need to be near city centers, especially if you take the whole experimentation into account. Remember that some of the vaults had people living in them even before the bombs fell.

they do if you want enough people to be able to reach them before the bombs hit to actually have a valid sample size for your test.

Again, it has been shown again and again that some people live in them before hand. This makes it possible to have big enough sizes without being near city centers.

They had drills to evacuate to the vaults until many people stopped taking them seriously when it finally happened.

I know that. But keep in mind that not all vaults had these drills.

I know, I was just saying that all the vaults had no need to be located near cities and settlements.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I think Vault 15 was for the people of Hopeville and other neighboring communities. I like to think that Vault 8 was nearby Carson City, one of my favorite towns, but unfortunately it's two hours away.


Bethesda just completely ruined the concept though. Really? 7 vaults per city? It's ridiculous.

If Vault 15 located where it was in Fallout 1 that might be true, but Fallout 2 moved it, Shady, and Vault 13, MUCH farther west then they were in Fallout 1.


Actually, that makes the most sense. You would want to build several vaults near the large population centers in order to ensure the maximum number of people got to them. LA, Vegas, San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, D.C., NYC, Boston, etc. etc., aka every place a Fallout game would actually take place, would be where 99% of the Vaults SHOULD have been built.

No one would built vaults in the north, or 90% of the Midwest, because basically no one lives theres, and large parts of the southern half of America, such as everything east of Vegas and west of like Dallas/Ft. worth would have had only 2-3 Vaults, due to being mostly desert with few large cities.

If you build a vault in a town of 5 to 10 thousand, your odds of getting in a thousand people without incident would be much GREATER- no chaos.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I think Vault 15 was for the people of Hopeville and other neighboring communities. I like to think that Vault 8 was nearby Carson City, one of my favorite towns, but unfortunately it's two hours away.


Bethesda just completely ruined the concept though. Really? 7 vaults per city? It's ridiculous.

If Vault 15 located where it was in Fallout 1 that might be true, but Fallout 2 moved it, Shady, and Vault 13, MUCH farther west then they were in Fallout 1.


Actually, that makes the most sense. You would want to build several vaults near the large population centers in order to ensure the maximum number of people got to them. LA, Vegas, San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, D.C., NYC, Boston, etc. etc., aka every place a Fallout game would actually take place, would be where 99% of the Vaults SHOULD have been built.

No one would built vaults in the north, or 90% of the Midwest, because basically no one lives theres, and large parts of the southern half of America, such as everything east of Vegas and west of like Dallas/Ft. worth would have had only 2-3 Vaults, due to being mostly desert with few large cities.

If you build a vault in a town of 5 to 10 thousand, your odds of getting in a thousand people without incident would be much GREATER- no chaos.

Remember that if they were near cities wouldn't people try to fight their way in? How can you stop millions of people marching on the vaults for entry?

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The Brotherhood does feel more like its original incarnation, but still they seem to be somewhat off. That they now have a rather large army, a large arsenal of weapons, vehicles such as the vertibirds, that airship, and Liberty Prime feels like it has elevated them to capabilities of the Enclave and I am not sure if that is such a good direction for them.
The idea was always that the Brotherhood was failing because of their own small worldview and obsession about certain technologies such as power sources and weapons (ignoring other potential useful ones such as innovation in agriculture for example).

Now suddenly this decline seems to be in reverse and the Brotherhood has become some kind of enlightened despotism (haven't seen anyone else yet who matches Maxson in influence/is equal to him).
Some of the behavior the BOS now display seems to be more in common with the Midwest BOS than the West Coast BOS, so Bethesda's writers should have probably gone with them in the first place rather than sending an expedition from one Coast to another despite the thousands of miles of unmapped land full of various dangers and unknown factions/organizations.

I was a bit surprised that the Brotherhood has such a strong dislike against genetic engineering/biochemistry research and artificial intelligence, claiming that these technologies are as destructive as nuclear technology and could cause a second apocalypse.
But that the BOS in Fo4 believe that technology should be used responsibly does tie in back to Fallout 1 in which the BOS were also of this belief, thus their dislike of genetic engineering because of their experience with Super Mutants is understandable.

Their dislike for thinking machines however feels rather out of place as the Brotherhood has never encountered thinking machines before (Fallout Tactics is non canon, and this chapter of the BOS left the West Coast long before the BOS learned about Mr House and his robots).
Had the Institute for example been sending Synths against the BOS and been trying to infiltrate and destroy the organization from the inside out for years, this hatred would have been understandable but that is not the case.

Spoiler

Paladin Danse's revelation as a synth seems to be a rather recent development

I am now definitely sure that all the background lore around Maxson is the result of some kind of 'cult of personality' mentality that is going on, attributing great deeds, fantastic leadership and tactical genius to him, and that even people outside the BOS are founding cults to worship him (despite that he does not want to be seen as some kind of deity and insists that these cults are disbanded)

This whole 'larger than life' mentality, along with the claim of great modesty strongly gives me the feeling that Maxson is busy turning the BOS into a cult revolving around himself. (it was even announced that the West Coast Brotherhood Elders were impressed with Maxson and that he should lead the East Coast BOS despite there not having been any contact with the two groups for a very long time. If the West Coast BOS is back in the game, would they not want Maxson to return as quickly as possible back to the West and take his organization, large assortment of weapons, and vehicles with him so these can be used in the war against the NCR? NCR would definitely surrender if the BOS arrive with the Prydwen, there would probably barely even be a fight)

So far I have seen no indication of excellent leadership myself, his campaign against the Institute for example seems more based on hatred/fear of an outside organization that has more advanced technology than the Brotherhood, but no indication so far that the Institute seeks to destroy the BOS. (well not until the BOS came to the commonwealth)
There is not even any attempt at trying to establish communications with the Institute or study them first like the BOS did with the Enclave in Fallout 2.

To be honest, despite some of the improvements in the writing the BOS now more than ever feels like a generic sci fi army, rather than the small elitist organization of Fallout 1. Had there been a steady rate of rebuilding it would have made sense but as was suggested in Fallout 2, Fallout New Vegas (and Van Buren), the BOS is in decline because of their own elitism and xenophobia. They are a paramilitary organization and never any kind of government or country others could get behind by because that was never their goal. (they wanted to wait until the rest of humanity died off so that they could claim the planet for themselves, then rebuild)