PossibleCabbage
Vault 22 Survivor
I would at least hope they would have gone with "2 is average" (a la White Wolf) so that you can actually, if you want, RP a character who is deficient in some way.
Bethesda's Lore Recons
- Thread starter arcticflocky
- Start date
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Heh? What white wolf?
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Why didn't they replace Feral Ghouls with another already-in enemy then and put a few "feral" ghouls as intelligent ones like in FO1-2? Why Jet doesn't work nor is treated in-universe like in FO2? Why there's an image of Liberty Prime in Camp Golf? Why ED-E has a recording of an Enclave scientist mentioning a Power Armor introduced in FO3?
Dude, seriously.
I completely hate this Feral ghoul idea anyway. No matter if Canon or not. Hey! We need another type of generic enemy ... hmm ok ... what have we got ... Zombies would be cool! Nah, doesn't fitt to Fallout. I know! Let us use Ghouls! Bam. There. Your Sci-Fi Zombies. It is ok to have them sometimes be your enemy. But I always imagined that they have been actually intelligent. Or at least most of them. And doesn't Fallout 1 kinda state that the only ghouls pretty much existed in the Boneyard and/or Dayglow and are already dieing out or something? Not sure.
5545Trey
Underground Deviant
Liberty Prime and the Enclave recordings, I can understand, but trivial things like Jet and Feral Ghouls are not fucking important and should just be looked over (like Myron). Did I not just went over this already? These people had 18 goddamn months to develop a video game on an existing engine. It should be fairly obvious why Feral Ghouls from Fallout 3 were basically ported into NV and why it was not implemented the way it was in Fallout 2. Obsidian had much more important shit to worry about than one chem and one enemy type, like creating a whole new set of characters, making tweets to gameplay, designing new enemies, developing multiple factions, adding more moral ambigiuity, the list just goes on and on.
I never stated NV does not acknowledge Fallout 3 as canon, I am merely pointing out that you cannot just say, "well, x obviously treats y as canon because of said enemy type".
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Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Yes, and the reason is that Obsidian treats FO3 as canon. If I have limited time and resources and I am interested in preserving canon (Fearl Ghouls are a f---ing big change) I would have rather done "canon" ghouls than modelled infant Deathclaws, Alpha Male Deathclaws, mother Deathclaws (how many are there in the game? 3? 4?), Legendary Deathclaw (ONE enemy in the whole game), the new models of Ghouls not in Fo3, BigHorners and so forth.
Feral Ghouls are a huge change to the canon. That's like dismissing the ridicolous differences between FO2 Jet and FO3-4 Jet. Keeping them in that way is a statement in itself.
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Mr Fish
Slippy sloppy, The
To be fair, Obsidian pretty much had to treat FO3 as canon. I mean what are they really supposed to say huh? That while developing it a Bethesda rep asks them about a change they're doing and they respond with "oh, we're not treating your game as canon". Of course they had to 'treat it as canon', but did they do it because they had to or because they wanted to. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Feral ghouls are in FNV. That much is clear. But in Vault 34 and Searchlight we see them trying to make ghouls more like the older ones. The Crazies around Gecko and the "Zombies" in Necropolis.
Just cause they 'had to' use the feral ghoul models and shit and couldn't change that because of Bethesda does not mean that they necessarily accept it as being completely canon. If they did, the Searchlight and Vault 34 ghouls wouldn't differentiate from the Fallout 3 ones at all. (Cause I don't remember a single feral in Fallout 3 ever "speaking")
Fallout 1 and 2 and Tactics came out before Fallout 3 and NV and they established a certain kind of lore when it comes to ghouls. If FO3 and FNV goes against that lore then FO3 and FNV is wrong. FO3 more so than FNV as FNV at least 'tried' to make a weird hybrid version of old and new.
Just cause they 'had to' use the feral ghoul models and shit and couldn't change that because of Bethesda does not mean that they necessarily accept it as being completely canon. If they did, the Searchlight and Vault 34 ghouls wouldn't differentiate from the Fallout 3 ones at all. (Cause I don't remember a single feral in Fallout 3 ever "speaking")
Fallout 1 and 2 and Tactics came out before Fallout 3 and NV and they established a certain kind of lore when it comes to ghouls. If FO3 and FNV goes against that lore then FO3 and FNV is wrong. FO3 more so than FNV as FNV at least 'tried' to make a weird hybrid version of old and new.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
For sure, wether they wanted it or not their hands were tied. Point is that you can't treat FO:NV as canon and FO3-4 as non canon when, whatever the reason, New Vegas did. And Feral Ghouls are a quick and simple way to prove that.
Mr Fish
Slippy sloppy, The
Sure I can.
I'll just pretend that the ferals in FNV are not canon.
And like I said before, if there is a mod to alter them then I'll just go and grab that one.
Maybe I should create one that replaces ferals with regular ones that have just gone cray-cray.
I'll just pretend that the ferals in FNV are not canon.
And like I said before, if there is a mod to alter them then I'll just go and grab that one.
Maybe I should create one that replaces ferals with regular ones that have just gone cray-cray.
Except the whole 'Vaults are officially "everything goes" experiments' was established in Fallout 2. Seriously, the *entire plot* was about that. You can't pin that on Bethesda (or Skynet, or talking deathclaws for that matter).
The experiments are explained on the Oil Rig by President Richardson- their purpose, from what I remember, was explained in the Fallout Bible by Chris Avellone because (like a lot of other things in Fallout 2) that content was cut due to time constraints.
In short, the U.S Government realized the Great War was inevitable (and even if it wasn't, nearly all resources on Earth had been exhausted) so they decided to colonize another planet. The Vaults were set up to emulate an ark ship that takes several generations to reach the new planet- all the tests are based around that idea.
Some Vaults (Vault 13 and Vault City for example) were set up legitimately to act as control groups.
In any case, it turns out that interstellar travel wasn't viable for the Enclave (I can't remember if its due to a limitation of their technology following the Great War or because Earth was left off better than they expected), and they decide to stay on Earth- which is where they investigate, and later come up with, the plan to wipe out anything that isn't Enclave. The whole reason they abduct Vault 13 in the intro cinematic of Fallout 2 is because they knew Vault 13 was part of the control group and the people that left to form Arroyo were from the same genetic stock and could be used to re-engineer the FEV virus.
From what I remember of the Fallout Bible, the Ark ship was supposed to have its own map area that you could explore and find out more about the plan, but that map (and the ship) were cut.
The Oil Rig, with President Richardson, is in the game however and he certainly explains about the Vault experiments.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Umm Trey, you think Jet isn't important? Play Fallout 2 again, and look at New Reno, that mining town and Vault city. Note the political atmosphere exists BECAUSE of Jet. Jet is important.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Uh...no. I can because the Vault experiments shown and described in FO2 and the Fallout Bible were social experiments (a Vault with 1 man and the rest women, a Vault without entertainment tapes, a Vault overstocked with weapons and no locks, and so on) whereas Bethesda added nonsensical military experiments -with some of them taking place after the bombs fell (so what was the point?) and some before (so how would they have hid the experiments from the public if the bombs never fell?)- and stuff like Tranquility Lane.
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Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
In the case of Tranquility Lane, that was a reward more than anything for Stanislaus Braun.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
It made sense, who wouldn't want to be God?
5545Trey
Underground Deviant
Jet was important IN Fallout 2, not New Vegas, which is why I stated the way Jet was handled in NV should be looked over because it has no relevance to the plot the game was trying to tell.
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
If Obsidian where to maker another Fallout I would like to see a small group of regular Ghouls trying to rehabilitate Feral Ghouls and actually succeeding altho slowly. Because Ferals are technically just crazed and Famished Ghouls, not some separate creature. You would see them giving them medicaments, doing therapy and find more Non hostile crazy Ghouls and such. Just to flip off this "Zombie" shit that Bethesda pushes now.
Juza The Cloud
Nanto Goshasei
And to think Beth could just simply create a regional specific chem that has similar effects as jet and set up a reason for it existing in the commenwealth and problem solved. Call it something silly like zippy or zap and exaplain via computer terminals a backstory to the creation of it etc.
Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
The problem with that is that the radiation probably drove them mad by actually destroying neural tissue
Oh, and it seems Bethesda has a semi-plausible explanation for the Glowing Sea- I only went in it to find Virgil, but I'm told that there's a nuke plant somewhere in there.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I remember Fallout 1 where even GLOWING ghouls were still sane.