EU referendum: Leave Vote

They have nothing to do with this, dont change the subject.
And by hard power I mean a coercive approach to international political relations, especially one that involves the use of military power. The commision keeps being really antsy and so does Merkel. They are doing it dangerously, its almost as if they want it to get heated. And a fight would hurt on both sides. I'm pretty sure we'd come out on top though.
Uh ... ? They don't have anything to do with it ... who are you going to do negotiations with? The Marsians? You're talking right now about international political relations ... and I am asking you how this hard power will impress the chinese ... to make better deals with the UK ... and then you tell me ... they don't have anything to do with it ... :P *Mind blown*

it can roar up and bite.
How? The way how I see it, military power becomes less and less of a real factor in globalisation. And the UK isn't exactly what you call a manufacturing nation. How is the military you own going to help you in the future? By the way, when was the last time the UK has won a serious engagement? And I mean something at least on the size of Vietnam. Don't get me wrong! I am not saying the UK has a weak military. But let us be honest. It's not an empire anymore ... it is a nation among many. Nuclear missiles or not. What do you want to do with them? Threaten China or the US with them to make better deals? That's not how politics work I am afraid.
So here again, how do you want to use that hard power to get better deals. Like for example if British companies make deals with the chinese Government.
 
Yeah, I'm proud of that. It gained us international admiration, but its that Bulldog Spirit that got us through 2 world wars and a cold one.
Obama really had no chance of persuading us, in hindsight.


You've got a bit of a tunnel vision if you think Brexit has won Britain international admiration. From what I saw it mostly made the place a laughting stock with how flip-floppy the election was, how silly some of the pro-Brexit arguments were, how much a troll Farrage is, and how many regretted their vote and went to search what the EU was only after the fact.

And it's not like your military still isn't the US's little b... err brother thanks to NATO, Brexit hasn't changed that in the slightest. Maybe you guys should consider a NATOxit next.
 

Not saying any of that. But the UK can hold on off on its own. Britain can leave and as a great power due to its hard power cannot be bossed around. Now, say, compare that to a relatively 'isolated' nation such as Ukraine. Look what happened there.
 
Uh ... ? They don't have anything to do with it ... who are you going to do negotiations with? The Marsians? You're talking right now about international political relations ... and I am asking you how this hard power will impress the chinese ... to make better deals with the UK ... and then you tell me ... they don't have anything to do with it ... :P *Mind blown*
.
They don't because we are discussing the EU.
Anyway, we have already made some pretty solid deals with the Chinese:
www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/24/britains-deals-with-china-billions-what-do-they-mean
And soon the Aussies:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055
How? The way how I see it, military power becomes less and less of a real factor in globalisation.
Ah, your precious Globalisation. Isn't working.
There are populist revolts in loads of countries, especially the dominant superpower (USA). Military power will always be important. The biggest globalist organisation in the world is falling apart.
And the UK isn't exactly what you call a manufacturing nation.
Are you fucking kidding me?
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/
by the way, when was the last time the UK has won a serious engagement? And I mean something at least on the size of Vietnam.
Probably back in Egypt in the Second World War. We join international coalitions now, its better than going alone.

Anyway, my point about hard power with the EU is that the Germans want it because they have almost none. They need to defend against Russian aggression. The French have a decent army, but they will never use it. And the other countries are just rubbish. The EU needs our army and we can use it to our advantage in negotiations.

You've got a bit of a tunnel vision if you think Brexit has won Britain international admiration. From what I saw it mostly made the place a laughting stock with how flip-floppy the election was, how silly some of the pro-Brexit arguments were, how much a troll Farrage is, and how many regretted their vote and went to search what the EU was only after the fact.

And it's not like your military still isn't the US's little b... err brother thanks to NATO, Brexit hasn't changed that in the slightest. Maybe you guys should consider a NATOxit next.
No you have misinterpreted me. I meant the bulldog spirit has gained us admiration. We are not the US little brother either, we work with them to our mutual advantage.

Anyway, Brexit might gain us a lot of admiration. Because loads of governments might be populist/right wing soon.
  • USA
  • Austria
  • France
  • Netherlands
  • Denmark
  • Scandinavia
And all of those ones that are in the EU wanna leave, like France, the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria. Trust me, the EU is falling apart, we were just jumping off the sinking ship. There's more space on the lifeboat for you guys.
Brexit-Cartoon.jpg


1409959005359_wps_21_Nigel_Farage_Leader_of_UK.jpg
 
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Ah, your precious Globalisation. Isn't working.
There are populist revolts in loads of countries, especially the dominant superpower (USA). Military power will always be important. The biggest globalist organisation in the world is falling apart.
What you're describing are reactionaries, globalisation is inevitable whether you like it or not.
They need to defend against Russian aggression.
What? Since when has Russia been raring to go to war with Germany?
 
What you're describing are reactionaries, globalisation is inevitable whether you like it or not.
And what makes it inevitable. Its not inevitable at all. A couple of years ago we heard all this crap about the tides of globalism lifting all boats. Are you still clinging on to the drivel?
What? Since when has Russia been raring to go to war with Germany?
Never said anything about war. Putin is still being a massive prick though, and he keeps trying it on in Europe.
Russia's incorporation of Crimea radically accelerated the cooldown. The two parties predictably developed very different opinions on the matter. From Russia's perspective, the inhabitants of the peninsula exercised their right to self-determination. Germany interpreted the move as a clear breach of international law, a dangerous precedent, and a threat to European security.
Since they see it as a threat to security and dangerous, they want our hard power on their side.
 
And what makes it inevitable. Its not inevitable at all. A couple of years ago we heard all this crap about the tides of globalism lifting all boats. Are you still clinging on to the drivel?
What's that language you're speaking that's basically spoken in every other country? What's that thing you're using that connects you to literally the entire world? What are all those international organisations that allow the world to come to global consensuses? Weird... one might say those are tools of globalism but apparently I'm wrong about that.
Since they see it as a threat to security and dangerous, they want our hard power on their side.
Why would they need the UK when they have the US? In terms of hard power America outclasses every single nation in Europe, maybe every single country on Earth, and it just so happens that the EU and the US are best of friends.
 
Why would they need the UK when they have the US? In terms of hard power America outclasses every single nation in Europe, maybe every single country on Earth, and it just so happens that the EU and the US are best of friends.
Still doesn't mean the yanks wanna get involved. History shows its unwise to bank on one ally helping you. What if a new POTUS is elected who does not wanna get involved in EU problems, and leaves them alone to get fucked by the Russians. Why wouldn't they want the biggest and hardest regional power on their side? Its just logic.
What's that language you're speaking that's basically spoken in every other country? What's that thing you're using that connects you to literally the entire world? What are all those international organisations that allow the world to come to global consensuses? Weird... one might say those are tools of globalism but apparently I'm wrong about that.
So people speak English and use the internet.
Oh yeah, global consensus. The UN is fucking useless and there is basically a cold war between Russia, China and NATO.
 
Why wouldn't they want the biggest and hardest regional power on their side?
Because that "big and hard" power just fucked the EU in the bum? Honesty, doesn't your argument - that is to say the idea that the EU shouldn't rely on one nation - also apply to the UK? Why shouldn't they just rely on the combined forces of the French (which according to this site has the best military in Europe), Irish, Swede, Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, German, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian, Croatian, Slovenian, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Belgian, Luxembourgish, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese militaries, likely with assistance from the US? Why should the UK play into it at all?
So people speak English and use the internet.
Yes, do you think the ability to communicate almost instantaneously across vast distances and a global language has nothing to do with globalization?
Oh yeah, global consensus. The UN is fucking useless and there is basically a cold war between Russia, China and NATO.
How did you come to the conclusion that the UN is useless? You realise that basically the entire Western world follow its policies and respect the importance of the organization right?
It's an international forum created so that issues can be handled internationally, it'll work to resolve issues between the USA, PRC and RF and, more importantly, direct global influence in the correct direction, take for example the hand it had in ending Apartheid.

Frankly, I want to hear an argument for why globalization isn't going to occur, I've provided evidence that the globalization process is in full swing (world wide communication, a dominant language and international forums) while you've just said "Nuh-uh!".
 
Because that "big and hard" power just fucked the EU in the bum?
So they are going to tell a useful and powerful ally that could be a massive help to their country to fuck off because we left their Union. When the big Russian Bear comes knocking at your door you need all the allies you can get.
If you seriously think they will dismiss us and our army because we smashed them 200 years ago and we now fucked up their federal project think again.
Why shouldn't they just rely on the combined forces of the French (which according to this site has the best military in Europe)
That site is a piece of shit that bases its analysis on numbers not quality. Even though, the French army is quite good. Not sure if they are willing to use it though.
, Irish, Swede, Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, German, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian, Croatian, Slovenian, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Belgian, Luxembourgish, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese militaries
A Russian invasion would probably be sudden and in shock and awe style, and that would be a bitch to organise and lead. It would take months to get them together and come up with a strategy. By that time they would probably been occupied.
It's an international forum created so that issues can be handled internationally, it'll work to resolve issues between the USA, PRC and RF and, more importantly, direct global influence in the correct direction, take for example the hand it had in ending Apartheid.
Its fucking useless.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...comes-to-war-and-peace-the-UN-is-useless.html
http://www.philforhumanity.com/Why_the_United_Nations_is_a_Useless_Failure.html
Frankly, I want to hear an argument for why globalization isn't going to occur, I've provided evidence that the globalization process is in full swing (world wide communication, a dominant language and international forums) while you've just said "Nuh-uh!".
I meant federal union style globalisation not fucking telephones and language.
- that is to say the idea that the EU shouldn't rely on one nation - also apply to the UK?
I never said they should just fucking rely on the UK. It would be very useful to have us on their side though.
 
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I meant federal union style globalisation not fucking telephones and language.
Who the fuck was talking about federal unions? Crni certainly wasn't when you quoted his post, you weren't when you said 'Your precious globalization isn't working.' and I wasn't when I referenced that other shit. Do you know what globalization is? It's fucking international integration, not a globe of European Unions.
That site is a piece of shit that bases its analysis on numbers not quality.
According to this France is still better.
All of those are absolutely crap. I guess together they might be useful.
24 industrialised nations with a combined population of 677.9 million people is complete crap? You're not framing your mind in a total war scenario, in which all these nations would jump straight into austerity and manufacture tons of shit very quickly.
I never said they should just fucking rely on the UK. It would be very useful to have us on their side though.
The EU needs our army and we can use it to our advantage in negotiations
The word 'Needs' does not imply that something will merely be 'very useful' in a situation, it implies that it will be 'needed' as in absolutely necessary.
When the big Russian Bear comes knocking at your door you need all the allies you can get.
You said earlier, very importantly, that Russia wouldn't go to war with any of the European powers, that it'd just be an issue where they needed to show that they weren't pushovers, which they could obviously do without England.
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/operations/success.shtml (Peace keeping in Africa)
https://www.ids.ac.uk/files/dmfile/wp105.pdf (Helping to solve famine)
http://www.rscsl.org/Taylor.html (Prosecution of war criminals, this case was set up by the UN and isn't unique)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Eradication (Elimination of Smallpox, among other diseases, by the WHO)
But sure, some random blog says the UN's useless, so it's true.
 
They are both excellent millitaries, with good force projection. But its not as simple as mine is better than yours because they both excel in differing areas. Also, all this stuff you are linking is based on who has more stuff, which as I said is a dumb way to think. Quality not quantity.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/United-Kingdom/Military
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom
That global firepower website is useless for comparing but useful for statistics. So that shows we have a powerful army with force projection.
Why would they not want us to work with them? Give me a reason? How hard is it to grasp that my point is that the EU having us and our powerful military on there side will deter people even more from fucking with them.
, Irish, Swede, Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, German, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian, Croatian, Slovenian, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Belgian, Luxembourgish, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese militaries
A Russian invasion would probably be sudden and in shock and awe style, and that would be a bitch to organise and lead. It would take months to get them together and come up with a strategy. By that time they would probably been occupied.
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/operations/success.shtml (Peace keeping in Africa)
https://www.ids.ac.uk/files/dmfile/wp105.pdf (Helping to solve famine)
http://www.rscsl.org/Taylor.html (Prosecution of war criminals, this case was set up by the UN and isn't unique)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Eradication (Elimination of Smallpox, among other diseases, by the WHO)
I honestly dont give a shit about some diseases in the third world. Those are minor issues. It needs to solve the problem that is the cold war between NATO and Russia.
 
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A Russian invasion? Against whom? And why? Are you a lunatic or something ... that would mean a third world war. And that wouldn't end well for Russia either. Putin is a MOFO, but he's not an idiot. And neither are his advisors.

Not saying any of that. But the UK can hold on off on its own. Britain can leave and as a great power due to its hard power cannot be bossed around. Now, say, compare that to a relatively 'isolated' nation such as Ukraine. Look what happened there.
LIke I said ... already a couple of times ... this remains to be seen ... negotations have not even started yet. With anyone. The UK might or it might not get better deals. Your guess is as good as anyones here.

The thing is, for the moment, right now, the UK is in a weaker position. How do you make negotations and drade deals when you're in a worse situation? The UKs economy is in a recession right now, there can be no doubts about that. What ever if that was caused by Brexit, the EU or not, doesn't even matter. What matters, is that will take years if not DECADES, before you might achieve this position of power. And no one knows if that might even happen. And what will you do if the Scots really decide to get out of the UK? ... That is a whole powder keg for it self ...

Seroiusly, you could argue that I am to negative, yeah, glass is half full and shit. But you could also say that you're to optimistic as far as this greener pastures for the Uk without the EU goes.

I think, the only truth is, that no one knows for sure what the situation will be in 5, 10 or 20 years from now.

Ah, your precious Globalisation. Isn't working.
There are populist revolts in loads of countries, especially the dominant superpower (USA). Military power will always be important. The biggest globalist organisation in the world is falling apart.
Dude, I am not talking about this populist idea of globalisation where corporations are just out there to make us slaves. I am just talking about trading and conections between economies and governments. People don't realize that globalisation happens already since the 1920s. If not even earlier. The issues we experience now, have less to do with globalisation but simply that many of our decisions come back to bite us in the ass. That simple. The wars we started all around the world. This hard power you think is so important has done also a lot of damage. Nothing is only good or only bad. Military internventions come with a price. The readical groups and dictators we supported for economic advantages and the trade deals we made with questionable nations are another issue.

But the people in said nations become more aware about the things that happen around them. If a nation like the US or Britain fucks up the politic in Iran in the 1970s or 60s, what do you think people will do? Just pretend it never happend? That's not how it works I am afraid. You can't support someone like Gadaffi for centuries with weapons, money and resources, and when he's loosing support by a major part of is poulation come in at the last minute to say, we hate dicators! Let's bomb him! Remember why those radical groups hate the US, France and Britain, but not so much Germany.

I am not saying ALL problems on this world are our fault. But we play a very important role here. And when I see how much you brag about military power ... it kinda shows it how strong this mindset is. But it always comes back one way or another. If people can't attack hard targets, they will go for the soft ones. As it is what we saw at 9/11, Paris, Brussel and now Nice.

By the way, how much power would the UK have without the NATO. You're out of Europe maybe, but you're still part of a larger military body/alliance. China has more than 1 billion people ... do you even believe for a second that the UK, on it's own, could compete with them? Hell not even Germany and France together could. We barely get 10% of their population. Combined! There is a reason why the European Union was formed in the 1950s.

And what makes it inevitable. Its not inevitable at all. A couple of years ago we heard all this crap about the tides of globalism lifting all boats. Are you still clinging on to the drivel?
Then go and throw away your Iphone, your computer, your car and pretty much anything else you own, if you're hating globalisation so much. I am sure the UK cann make all of those gods on their own. I mean hey! You really should put your mouth where your word is.
 
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Dude, I am not talking about this populist idea of globalisation where corporations are just out there to make us slaves. I am just talking about trading and conections between economies and governments. .
I'm fine with that, but its the domineering federalisation that pisses me off. I'm not against NATO or trading, just political unions. Globalisation needn't be bossy antidemocratic dictatorships.
Then go and throw away your Iphone
Don't have one.
Don't have one.
your computer
I have one of those. But I dont need an antidemocratic federalised superstate of red tape and bureaucratic shit in order to own a computer.
 
A Russian invasion would probably be sudden and in shock and awe style, and that would be a bitch to organise and lead. It would take months to get them together and come up with a strategy. By that time they would probably been occupied.

I honestly dont give a shit about some diseases in the third world. Those are minor issues. It needs to solve the problem that is the cold war between NATO and Russia.

This isn't Call of freaking Duty. Russia isn't going to invade all of Europe in a few days with no one the wiser. Not only are they likely to be halted by the combined European militaries way before they can start hitting the rich countries, but Uncle Sam is watching and can project force way, way better than anyone else can.

Besides, Putin isn't stupid, whatever else he is. He has very little to gain from a total war with Europe. The EU and Russia are economically interdependant, Russia's economy hangs on in large part because it sells vast quantities of ressources to other countries, especially European ones, and the Russian military is apparently not near as powerful as raw numbers make it appear to be, many of its equipment is obsolete and discipline is lax. The Russians aren't fascists, they're not retarded enough to believe the solution to their economic problems is a full-scale war. To say nothing, of course, of the potential problem of long-range missiles and nuclear weapons being a thing.

Oh, sure, they go around bullying Ukraine and supporting Syria. It keeps their influence up and the troops sharp. An invasion of the biggest power bloc in the world is something else altogether, especially if said power bloc can turn all of Russia into Fallout ten times over.

And I'm pretty sure the people who aren't dying of diseases anymore in the Third World don't give a shit about Russia and NATO saying bad words to each other. Funny how perspective works.
 
Sure, everyone will know immediately. But you cant just pull 30-40 nations militaries. together in a couple of hours. As I said it would be a bitch to organise and lead. We all know that its ridiculous to say Putin might invade but I was simply debunking the idea that 30 countries could suddenly come together seamlessly in one big military machine over the course of a day.
 
And neither can Russia amass the troops to beat 30+ nations in one day. With all the surveilance we have, everyone would very quickly realize if another arms race started. Hence why we gave up on it after the cold war - for the most part. It's simply not worth it with nuclear weapons. But it seems the only one who didn't got that message yet is the US ...

I'm fine with that, but its the domineering federalisation that pisses me off. I'm not against NATO or trading, just political unions. Globalisation needn't be bossy antidemocratic
Kinda funny ... you're in favour of the Nato which has ... zero democratic structures and if anything is run by the Pentagon, but you despise the European Union because it's not a perfect democracy. I understand ... How much say did you have in the Iraq War? How much democracy was at play here, what ever if British soldiers should fight Sadam for WMDs or not? Remember why Tony Blair had to go? I do. How much say do you have in Afghanistan? Was it worth it to send some British soldiers there?

Yeah man, the EU is so evil, it has killed so many ... wait, it didn't! Because the EU doesn't drag you in wars :D. Dare I say it? Cuz we have a parliament! The NATO doesn't.

The other issue is, if all the others are in some federal structures and organistations, Russia with China (maybe?), The EU, US with Canada, South America etc. how long will the UK stand on its own? You know, if everyone is in a federalist group or some kind of organisation, and the UK will be the only one who's not ... why again will that give the UK more power?
 
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Kinda funny ... you're in favour of the Nato which has ... zero democratic structures and if anything is run by the Pentagon
There is not need for democracy in an intergovernmental military alliance. They dont need to vote on anything, its about defence of the member states and military collaboration. NATO Does not impose red tape and regulations, NATO does not defy referendums, NATO does not leech away people power gradually.
Also NATO is run by the Secretary General not the Pentagon.
, but you despise the European Union because it's not a perfect democracy.
Its not a democracy at all. Holy shit I am fed up of you posting this kind of crap.
Also, dont go on about the fucking EU parliment. Its a gravy train and they vote on some really important issues. Like the size of tractor seats. Its the undemocratic presidents that are in charge. The EU-PARL is merely a facade.
wait, it didn't! Because the EU doesn't drag you in wars :D.
That was because Blair was Bush's bitch. We didn't need to go in Iraq at all, nor were we dragged along.
 
I listened to a policy wonk on the radio go on about how the UK leaving the EU might actually be beneficial to the EU going foward. He went on to say that the UK had some special privileges that other member states did not have and were grievances over. But was light of specific polices. He said that the Nordic countries who were not members(or who were not on the Euro) may be brought more on board. Also that some other countries could be fast tracked for membership in the union. Now this is not my wheelhouse of policy so I don't know many of the points he was referring to or thier likelihood of them happening.

I'd like to ask the European NMA members do you see the EU becoming stronger after Brexit? Do you think the EU will have a referendum with possibly new guidelines for membership?
 
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