Fallout 3 at E3 - Gaming Trend

[Dougly]

"This is Enclave Station, the official radio station of the super secret, shadow government organization that you're not supposed to know about!"

This made me laugh and laugh and laugh.

While I hate the idea of the enclave being in FO3 on the East Coast let's try to come up with an explanation for this.

The locals don't know what we know about The Enclave by way of FO2. Maybe the Eastern Enclave took a different approach? Some residual US gov't agency trying to help things on the surface or some such bullshit. Might actually be kind of funny that they'd be running a friendly radio station using their own name. Take the sting out of it.

Actually, I think at least one of the other previews said that the radio station is just named "Galaxy News," or something like that. The implication being that the Enclave, when they took over, just decided to use the pre-war name of the station.

So, yeah, based on other previews, I'm not convinced that the radio station will openly be named "Enclave Station."

 

[Brother None]

Galaxy News is the news station, Enclave station is one of the music stations.

 

[Black]

Suddenly they decided to finish off 'muties' by broadcasting 50s music?

 

[Dougly]

Galaxy News is the news station, Enclave station is one of the music stations.

Whaaat.. You mean there's more than one radio station up and running?

I can buy that some powerful actor might find one radio station that's in good enough shape to be repared, fix it up, and then operate it. But more than one?

I guess I'll have to wait to see how it plays out in the final product, but that doesn't seem like it would fit in with the PA setting very much.

Also, I'd think the Enclave would be more interested in operating a news station - and putting their own bent on current events - than they would in playing "cool tunes."

 

[Vault 69er]

Suddenly they decided to finish off 'muties' by broadcasting 50s music?

Maybe they're sending out subliminal messages on a low frequency.

I don't want <KILL> to set the world <YOURSELVES> on fire..
I just <MUTIE> want to start a <DIE> flame in your heart..
I've lost <KILL> all ambition for worldly <DIE> acclaim..
I just <DIE> want to be the one you <BURN> love..

And so on.

 

[GamingTrend]

I'll hope you'll agree with me that the reason BIS and Troika went down wasn't directly related to their games or sales. To my knowledge, neither studio ever produced a game that made a loss, all their games were profitable. Mismanagement and crappy publishers killed both.

They had strong publishers and good marketing. They mismanaged. As for Troika, they made three games in the past 6 years - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, The Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. Arcanum was the company's best selling game at 234K units ($8.8 million dollars). The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units ($5.2 million) and Bloodlines sold 72K units ($3.4 million) - all according to the NPD Group. Even combined, all three of these titles couldn't even break half a million sold. Fans are still trying to repair all of the mess with Bloodlines. Black Isle? Well, they had a big anchor at their leg named Interplay. What can ya do?

You don't have to sell millions on every title, it depends on how much you invest. Most industries understand that, but somehow gaming doesn't. Sure, Oblivion sold millions, but it also cost millions. Many millions.

And made millions. Many millions. Oblivion is the fastest selling 360 title to date. On the PC it dominated as well, taking #1 in every country it launched in, minus Japan. They haven't released dollar figures, but you figure 2 million sales * 50 bucks (taking 10 off the 360 for even figures) = 100 million dollars. Gotta spend money to make money, and apparently they are making plenty. See the paragraph above for what happens when you don't.

I know, many people realise this possibility. But the fact that this is the only path open to so many consumers is a sad, sad commentary on the industry.

Besides, the possibilities of indie developers will never get the results that free creativity with the support of a large company, like Fallout and PS:T, did.

No argument here - they have more room to breathe than any indy dev. My point is simply that if you think you can do better, go do it and see how hard it really is.

 

[Ausir]

And made millions. Many millions.

Electronic Arts makes even more, and I sure as hell don't want them anywhere near Fallout.

 

[GamingTrend]

On a more humerous note, can you imagine what life must have been like before the war if cars could really go up in nuclear explosions like that? Imagine what would happen during a huge pile up on the beltway during rush hour.

Driving in downtown L.A. I thought about this....a lot. Maybe an unhealthy amount really.

As for Bethesda reading the forums - I know NMA isn't exactly popular with them, but, if they do read, I hope they at least consider some of the suggestions for changes.

I'm sure it is exhausting for them to hear nothing but negativity towards a product that 99% of people haven't even laid eyes on. How can you know that brussle sprouts are vile without actually tasting them? (They are vile...*shudder*) I talk with folks there often though - they are listening.

I don't rabidly hate Bethesda. I do give them credit for making some changes that I like/am interested in. I personally kinda enjoy the idea of G.O.A.T., and scenes from growing up in the vault. Might be nice to be able to skip them on future play throughs, lest they become tedious (like that damn temple of trials in F2), but I think they sound like a real neat idea. Being able to customize what your character looks like will be a welcome change, and changing the father to reflect the apperance of your character sounds like a nice touch. I'm also glad they kept SPECIAL, though I'm worried about how well SPECIAL will work with some of the game play changes they've made.

The G.O.A.T. was one thing I was REALLY hoping to see myself, but sadly wasn't shown. I'm with you on the temple of trials though...

I'm a little irked by the loss of turn base combat, but I'm willing to consider Fallout as a real time combat game. I enjoyed Deus Ex, so, if it's like that, it won't be horribly bad. I also appreciate Bethesda's willingness to allow the player to play in something other than first person perspective.

Todd showed us very briefly that you can move the camera quite high and at an angle. I really want to see if you can actually 'approximate' the isometric look of the old games, and then if it is indeed playable and worth playing at that angle.

 

[Ausir]

Todd showed us very briefly that you can move the camera quite high and at an angle. I really want to see if you can actually 'approximate' the isometric look of the old games, and then if it is indeed playable and worth playing at that angle.

From what we know, you can move around using that camera view, but it won't be usable during combat (since targeting is done on the actual enemy models, not in a pop-up window as in FO1 and FO2).

 

[Vault 69er]

Fans are still trying to repair all of the mess with Bloodlines. Black Isle?

Fans are still trying to repair all of the mess with Morrowind. So what's your point?
Ever heard of Morrowind FPS Optimiser? Morrowind EXE Optimiser? Morrowind Graphics Extender? External programs designed to fix the unstable mess Bethesda made.
As far as I'm aware, Bloodlines requires no similar programs to function correctly.

 

[GamingTrend]

Oh, really? Let's read that again:

I clarified it. Accept it or don't. Either way, move on.

Oh, my, that again. So, you'd rather have a poor game than one with bugs? What kind of logic is that? Suddenly games with bugs are worse than poor games? And Troika was a bad company because of that, wasn't it?

Showstopping bugs that destroy your Windows install when you remove them? Yea, those kinda suck. (see AD&D)

And go figure, I played all three games Troika made without any fan-made patches, and I had no problems. Surprise, surprise!
Last time I heard, Oblivion is a crap game without any mods.

Last you heard? So no hands-on? Just more rabid speculation.

Plus, since when are Bethesda's games so free of bugs? Didn't the last expansion for Oblivion had a game-stopping bug?

Using your logic, I didn't run into that bug so it didn't happen.

Try and inform yourself better about this second coming of Christ that was supposed to be this Radiant AI.

I quoted Todd. That's it. Saying anything else is just more mouth foaming from you.

And finally....

Just a little thinking would tell you that. You know, when you don't go "ZOMG, NUKULAR EXPLOZIONZZ!!11"

Really, how old are you that you are allowed to be a journalist?

Not replying to your insults.

 

[Brother None]

They had strong publishers and good marketing. They mismanaged. As for Troika, they made three games in the past 6 years - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, The Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. Arcanum was the company's best selling game at 234K units ($8.8 million dollars). The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units ($5.2 million) and Bloodlines sold 72K units ($3.4 million) - all according to the NPD Group. Even combined, all three of these titles couldn't even break half a million sold. Fans are still trying to repair all of the mess with Bloodlines. Black Isle? Well, they had a big anchor at their leg named Interplay. What can ya do?

The Troika games were bigger sellers worldwide, obviously, and I repeat; none of them made a loss. Madden 'XX always borders on making a loss because of ridiculous licensing deals despite insane sales, yet it's not Madden games they stopped making, it's Troika games. And that's odd. Again, no other industry works like that, any explanation?

And made millions. Many millions. Oblivion is the fastest selling 360 title to date. On the PC it dominated as well, taking #1 in every country it launched in, minus Japan. They haven't released dollar figures, but you figure 2 million sales * 50 bucks (taking 10 off the 360 for even figures) = 100 million dollars. Gotta spend money to make money, and apparently they are making plenty.

I am not impressed by Oblivion's sales figures, especially not as a current 3-platform title. It seems to me they're making less money on it than they did on Morrowind.

No argument here - they have more room to breathe than any indy dev. My point is simply that if you think you can do better, go do it and see how hard it really is.

I'm not a developer. In fact, I despise the gaming industry and find games an immature, incomplete mode of creative expression. Yet the natural inclination here is that I should feel forced to make a game nonetheless. That is a very, very sad commentary on the industry.

I don't think I can do better, nor did I ever claim to. I think the industry is stifling the creativity of the people that *can* do better, because it's run by dollar signs like Pete Hines and Todd Howard.

 

[Vault 69er]

Showstopping bugs that destroy your Windows install when you remove them? Yea, those kinda suck. (see AD&D)

Excuse me? That's quite an accusation. I assume you have proof to back this up and are not just rabidly bashing Troika.

 

[Black]

The only game I know that destroyed Windows when removed was Pool of Radiance: Ruin of Myth Drannor or something- but I believe it was made by Stormfront Studios, not Troika o_o

 

[Vault 69er]

More often than not uninstalls would destroy windows because.. well.. windows is utterly shitty. Especially the cack that was Win ME.

 

[GamingTrend]

The reason Fallout fans HATE Fallout 3 and cannot forgive Bethesda is that it is another spin-off -- but labelled as a sequel. Once a sequel to Fallout 1+2 is published under the name "Fallout 3" and implements grave changes, those changes are the new "canon" and deprecate the established one.

That means Bethesda is the first company to actually go out and KILL Fallout as we know it. FOT and FOBOS were horribly non-canon and all but close to the spirit of Fallout, but neither was a sequel. With Fallout 3 we get a spin-off (look it up in the dictionary) that is advertised as a sequel, branded as a sequel and thought of as a sequel by the gaming industry (Beth, the press, and eventual fans).

They just purchased a license for a game series they didn't make - it'd be foolish for them to not capitolize on the success of the previous titles and name it 3. While you or I may not agree with it, it is the wise thing to do. Rabid fans may hate it, but people who don't follow the canon that closely (the majority of people) will simply accept it and move on.

But it's too late for that now, is it? They had to wait with even the most generic details of the game until everything was ready to be shrink-wrapped and shown off to the gaming press. After months of secrecy and hype for "Fallout 3" now's not the time to make a major change like swapping some words in the title around. It'd be taken as self-criticism or admitting you were wrong -- and a publisher can't show any weakness like that, it'd prove they're only human after all.

If you make a product that scores 94% from the gaming press and is heralded as a fantastic RPG and it makes you 100 million dollars and counting, could you honestly convince yourself that you are wrong? Apparently most everyone liked Oblivion. If you have a winning formula, stick with it. (or did we all forget the intestinal puncture that was "New Coke"?)

Blizzard shelved StarCraft Ghost upon realising how utterly incompatible it would have been with their established franchise.

Having seen Ghost in action, it was incompatable with good review scores and sales. Ugly graphics, weak gameplay, and far below the threshold of Blizzard products.

They killed WarCraft Adventures upon realising it wasn't the kind of game their fanbase wanted.

I never got to see this up close, but something must have been wrong to be sure. I love adventure games, and one in the Warcraft universe would have been cool I think, but clearly something wasn't quite right. Good on them to have enough cash in pocket to say no to two products like that.

They even completely rewrote their concepts for WarCraft 3 half-way through development. Then again, Blizzard now works on StarCraft 2, which seems to be visually identical to its predecessor, just a bit shinier and fancier, thanks to the powerful 3D engine, which they use in a subtle way rather than the blunt in-your-face approach Bethesda seems to enjoy so much.

We'll see if it really is more of the same or if it feels outdated thanks to games like Company of Heroes. I love StarCraft, but I worry about SC2.

But Bethesda doesn't take criticism. Insight isn't a trait they are famous for. The only time they point out or at least accept shortcomings of their games is when they can use that to show or promise how much better their new game will be and how it will fix all those shortcomings at once, fix your hair loss problems and make the girls (or boys) like you more (promise!).

Realize he could do what many companies do and simply ignore it and don't admit that there were shortcomings at all.

 

[Vault 69er]

They just purchased a license for a game series they didn't make - it'd be foolish for them to not capitolize on the success of the previous titles and name it 3. While you or I may not agree with it, it is the wise thing to do. Rabid fans may hate it, but people who don't follow the canon that closely (the majority of people) will simply accept it and move on.

Yeah, people who don't care about Fallout 1 + 2 will gleefully accept this as Fallout 3. Therefore it is logical to call it Fallout 3... ahahaha.. you're hilarious!

If you make a product that scores 94% from the gaming press and is heralded as a fantastic RPG and it makes you 100 million dollars and counting, could you honestly convince yourself that you are wrong? Apparently most everyone liked Oblivion. If you have a winning formula, stick with it. (or did we all forget the intestinal puncture that was "New Coke"?)

Oblivion is not a winning formula. It's a shell of a game bolstered by hype, series legacy and casual gamers.
That won't last forever. Do you think it will? Well, that's similar to what Atari thought in 1983...

 

[Killzig]

The Troika games were bigger sellers worldwide, obviously, and I repeat; none of them made a loss. Madden 'XX always borders on making a loss because of ridiculous licensing deals despite insane sales, yet it's not Madden games they stopped making, it's Troika games. And that's odd. Again, no other industry works like that, any explanation?

This isn't honest at all since for the most part the engine and art assets don't change from year to year. This represents huge savings in development. You could argue that this is only the 2nd year they're developing with a "next gen" console as the lead platform but they still have the residual profits built up from last generation's "Roster Update '0X" ...

//goes back to NCAA 2008.

 

[Briosafreak]

As for Troika, they made three games in the past 6 years - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, The Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. Arcanum was the company's best selling game at 234K units ($8.8 million dollars). The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units ($5.2 million) and Bloodlines sold 72K units ($3.4 million) - all according to the NPD Group.

Eheheheeh those numbers are wrong man:

I don't have any actual numbers at hand (nor do I know whether I can reveal numbers per our contract, since I don't have that with me at the moment either), but to the best of my knowledge, ToEE was our best seller - or at least our fastest. The reason it's difficult to say is because our numbers were often being adjusted after the fact for arcane business reasons (on the publisher's end). I believe Arcanum is close to ToEE in sales, but Arcanum has been out alot longer and is at a much lower price point. Vampire hasn't been out long enough to really judge how well it will eventually do, as our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most.

(...)

The reason Andrew could see our royalty statements is because we were an open book company - besides sharing good news with our employees (like good sales numbers) everyone knew where we were financially at all times, even when the news was bad.

So I went to investigate what was going on, since I already knew the Fallout 2 figures from NPD were also wrong, and got in a discussion that lead to a reply by NPD, saying the confusion had to be something about they only used the US figures (I'll show you the mail later, I have to find it first).

In fact the PC numbers in general were never correct from the start, since they were made around projections based on a small number of stores in the States. They changed that to give more reliable numbers early in 2006, now they use a system (although still projections, only the publishers have the 100% real numbers) closer to what they they use for console games.

Ask the Troika guys if you don't believe me

 

[xdarkyrex]

Yeah, people who don't care about Fallout 1 + 2 will gleefully accept this as Fallout 3. Therefore it is logical to call it Fallout 3... ahahaha.. you're hilarious!

He's right you know.

from a financial perspective, not capitalising on the name "fallout 3" is idiocy.