Fallout 3 is The Force Awakens

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by CT Phipps, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    One of the things I always think is lost with many critics of Fallout 3 is that it's a remake. It's basically a retelling of Fallout 1 and 2 in miniature. While the Water Chip story is gone, it's replaced with building a gigantic water purifier (which is what the water chip does) and covers most of the same story beats you'll have in the original game.

    Super Mutants
    The Enclave
    John Henry Eden is the Master substitute you can talk to death
    You can't go home again to your Vault, being kicked out for the Vaults own good
    The Brotherhood of Steel

    Really, the game is basically The Force Awakens. It's an attempt to retell the original games in such a way that an entire new generation of fans can be introduced to all of the wonders of Fallout and its lore. It's why I have difficulty with a lot of fans who keep saying they should have introduced new factions for the East Coast.

    That misses the point. The vast majority of console gamers will never play Fallout 1 and 2 but they deserved a chance to be introduced to the world and lore.

    Which is what Fallout 3 did, setting up new gamers to experience the lore.
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Why? Where is this idea coming from anyway, that something like Fallout has to be brought to a larger or new audience, particularly if the end product ends up as a shallow version of the original as far as the complexity and narrative goes?

    By making everything simply 'worse'.

    The raiders and SMs are generic enemies that could be as well Bandits and Trolls from Oblivion. The Enclave is your main bad guy with little to no interaction, Henry-I-will-simply-destroy-my-self-now-Eden was a sorry attempt at the Master, the Vault also contained a lot of clusterfucks and the Brotherhood of Steel was full of stupid characters and unkillable NPCs. Most of the locations in the game are just fillers, generic and shallow, just like the game.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
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  3. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Let's face it, everyone nowadays has a pc, even if it's a shitty laptop that they've had since the 90s.

    EVERYONE has the opportunity to play Fallout 1 and 2, if they want to be introduced to the world and lore, they should just play the games.

    You can't just excuse rehashing the same old bullshit by saying "It's to introduce new players to the world and lore", if they haven't been introduced to it, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

    It's because of Fallout 3 that everyone demands The Enclave come back time and time again, and that the Brotherhood are expected to be a huge portion of the game, when they should be a minor local faction at most.

    EDIT: Also, let's not forget that shitting on the sensibilities of the old fans, for the sake of making sure new fans know everything about the series, doesn't benefit anybody.

    Had they just made entirely new factions for Fallout 3, then maybe lots of the fans of the originals wouldn't have been quite as insulted by it, and it would cause no disbenefit to the newer fans, because they still get to play the game, and be brought in to the universe, just not knowing most of the details of the originals.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
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  4. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I disagree because not everyone is going to want to play the original games versus play certain kind of games, be they console or shooters. This was an opportunity to widen the audience of Fallout to console and shooter fans and it worked SPECTACULARLY.

    The Enclave is an organization which has a lot of potential which wasn't fully realized in Fallout 2. They're the Pre-War US government, Nazis, and very engaging as villains. Their return in Fallout 3 was welcome for me as a fan of Fallout 2 as my favorite of the original two games. Likewise, I'd like to see them return again because they're enjoyable.

    I think there's a happy medium between getting new fans to the world without older fans feeling they're being shit on.

    Oh wait, that was Fallout: new Vegas.

    Bullshit. Don't take that as an insult but I felt the Brotherhood of Steel and Enclave were really brought home in Fallout 3 in a way which made me able to enjoy them more. The BOS were a minor faction in Fallout and almost completely absent from Fallout 2--so I really enjoyed getting to see them more. Besides, Tactics had already made them a central faction as well as the game which will not be named.

    I already said the Enclave deserved to be brought back to examine again.

    And yes, Super Mutants suck as treated--albeit, I never felt they should come back after Fallout 1.
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  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    In which way was the Enclave in Fallout 2 engaging though? It was a lulz faction if anything. It wasn't the worst kind of enemy I have ever seen in a game, but they really have been somewhat of a let down as far as the narrative goes, none of the interaction I had with the Enclave in Fallout 2 really impressed me.

    Infact, I feel the faction/place with the most potential in Fallout 2, was Vault City, and if anything the game should have been about them and creating some kind of conflict here, something like the relationship between Gecko and Vault City just on a much larger scale. Lynette would have been a great villain, infact she was one of the best villains and the society of Vault City wasn't some evil place full of nazi-like enemies.
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  6. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    A remake? Where's this idea come from? It lazily uses characters and plot elements from the first two games. Besides if it is a remake, why is it called Fallout 3?

    Oh and this may be pedantic but the water chip didn't directly purify water, it controls the systems that do.

    Raiders: All dressed the same, all violent drug addicted psychos that do nothing but cause death and mayhem for laughs. Despite being only mentioned in Fallout 1 there were 3 different raider groups; the Khans, Jackals and Vipers.

    Super mutants: No characterisation other than dumb violent monsters, save Fawkes and Uncle Leo who are the exact opposite. Not to mention lore inconsistency with FEV being given to Vault-Tec.

    The Enclave: Do I really need to say anything about them? The majority were wiped out on the Rig and despite having troops left in Navarro they just decide to go all the way across the wasteland to the East Coast just to sit there for years until they notice James trying to create a giant purifier.

    JHE =/= the Master.

    Kicked out the Vault: Not really got anything to say about this aside from it's stupid. In Fallout 1 (aside from the experiment) the Overseer was afrad others would emulate the Vault Dweller. Fallout 3? "People blame you for that thing you had nothing to do with and despite the fact you've saved us we still blame you for that thing you had nothing to do with. Get out!"

    BOS: Nothing like how they should be and horribly handled. There for the sake of being there.

    TL;DR "Look! We've put things in from the old games, therefore this is a Fallout game!" with no idea what a Fallout game actually is.

    Wait what? What the f-

    I cannot understand this. The game is set in a new location, old factions aren't going to be everywhere in the world and seeing new factions, how they view the world and how they interact with each other is infinitely more interesting than keep re-using old factions over and over again.

    Wait, so you don't think the SM should have come back after Fallout 1, yet you want the Enclave to keep returning?

    What exactly did Fallout 3 expand on the Enclave that justified them coming back? The Enclave was interesting in Fallout 2 because it was the most advanced faction and a remnant of the Old World, but that didn't warrant them returning. I don't think Fallout 3 added anything to the Enclave.

    And they might share some common elements with Nazis, but they aren't, so please stop calling them that. It's like calling the Legion Romans.

    I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to see new factions.
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  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I've never liked the Children of the Cathedral, the Master, or the Super Mutants anywhere near as much as the Enclave. I think part of it is xenophobia as I automatically find human villains more compelling than the mutants. I, however, love the insight the Enclave gave to the degeneration of civil liberties and transformation of the USA into a fascist state. I also loved how they were distinctly American fascists rather than straight Nazi retreads, taking American jingoism and turning it into the worst of our nations past.

    I loved everything about them except Frank Horrigan, who felt like someone thought Darth Vader as a giant was a good idea for a villain. I loved interacting with them, impersonating them, and wanted to see them show up again.
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  8. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    If they aren't the kind of person who would enjoy the original games, they aren't the kind of person who should be deciding the future of the Fallout franchise.
    While I quite liked the Enclave and saw them as an interesting faction, there potential was as explored as it could have been. There motives were fairly simplistic, we know all we need to about there technology level, and beyond the Oil Rig there wasn't that much about them.

    Plus, the Fallout games are far more interesting when you see a world changing, then a world where the major players constantly remain the same. I feel that Fallout New Vegas's presentation of them as a small, scattered group fitted the setting far more than having them come back in full-force.
    And Bethesda aren't nearly competent enough to strike that medium.
    Funnily enough, The Brotherhood got a lot more exploration in New Vegas than they did in 3.

    In 3 they were nothing like the original brotherhood, and had very little new lore regarding them, meaning you never really see that much about them. The way I see it, Fallout 3s brotherhood introduces you to a matter of "This faction exists" as opposed to "Look how cool this faction is"

    In New Vegas you find out about there traditionalist stance, the way Roger Maxson left behind the rules for the Brotherhood to follow, how Veronica believes they are doomed , there war with the NCR. I find it funny how a game where they are one of the side factions you interact with shows you much more about them then a game where they play a fundamental role in the main story-line.
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  9. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Because the game loosely follows the plot of the previous two game. It's not laziness when it's deliberate. I mean, the Homefront mission straight-up is about making sure the player character suffers the same fate as the original Vault Dweller--banished from their home for the good of the Vault. As for being a remake, you can still do that as The Force Awakens is a remake of A New Hope but still set in the same continuity.

    Two of those factions never made it to the actual game. You can only interact with the Khans who you can either wipe out or murder a bunch of innocent women with. For a standard heroic character build, you need to murder the shit out of the Raiders in Fallout. You do the same as the resolution for the New Khans.

    The lore inconsistency of that is one of those things which Fallout purists tell themselves but I don't buy. WestTech is a military contractor for the United States and so is VaultTec since they're doing experiments for the Enclave too. Also, in-universe justified retcons are acceptable parts of Fallout lore because Chris Avellone himself said that it was totally a retcon that the Vaults were mouse mazes.

    The Enclave's history was in Fallout 3. They were contacted by John Henry Eden and lured to Raven's Rock, which was a completely intact military shelter. As for crossing the United States, given they had nuclear-powered helicopters, it's not like that's a big deal.

    Almost like life isn't fair, which was the point of the original game. In Fallout, you actually have saved the people of the Vault while in Fallout 3, you can only lower tensions between the two groups.

    They are there for the recovery of technology on the East Coast. You know, what their job is. As for them not being like they should be--that's the story.

    It's like complaining Anakin Skywalker isn't a very good Jedi. Elder Lyons is a shitty Elder and half of his troops have deserted him while he's losing a war against the Yellow Lemon People.

    I see, so you don't think seeing NCR was a good thing in New Vegas? I, for one, loved it. I loved finding out Rose of Sharon Cassidy was Cassidy's daughter. I loved the BoS in that game too. The Enclave and Followers of Apocalypse were great to have there too. By your logic, they shouldn't have been included.

    Yeah, I genuinely hate Super Mutants and wished they'd died out. However, some fans like them. More power to them.

    It's WASHINGTON D.C. I mean, seriously, how would you do a game set in the nation's capital without including the faction which represents everything which the Old World government became? The Brotherhood of Steel might be skippable but the Enclave is intrinsic to the setting.

    But they....are Romans.

    New Factions are okay but at the end of the day, I want to see old favorites get updated and explored. I mean, the Minutemen are new but they're boring as fuck. Literally, half of the moments I uncondtionally LOVED in Fallout 4 were related to the BoS.

    I got chills because I was going to see some old friends again.[/quote]
  10. PlanHex

    PlanHex Legislative Senator oTO Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Nov 4, 2007
    More like Terminator:Genisys because it made everything retarded for no particular reason other than to make money.
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  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    They are the fandom which will carry it into the next set of consoles.

    The Enclave is notable for the fact the majority of its interesting elements is in the past rather than the future but there's plenty of room which can be built with them. You can put them all over the United States because they're a Pre-War high technology faction.

    Honestly, I was underwhelmed with the Remnant. I was really hoping we might see a group which was working on rebuilding the Enclave and its power versus a bunch of old-timers with Power Armor. Arcade Gannon is a character I enjoyed but it would have been better if we could have convinced him to try to resurrect the organization or had dialogue to that effect.

    Eh, I call bullshit.

    The Brotherhood situation in Fallout 3 is a complicated situation where you learn about the mission to find the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel, how that failed, the cleansing of the Pit, how Elder Lyons tried to protect the Wastelanders, the defection of the Outcasts, and how it's turned into a massive boondoggle. You can also meet with Arthur Maxson and learn about what's potentially the future of the brotherhood being raised here. There's a shit ton of interesting stuff going on if you bother to explore the Pentagon and talk with everyone like you can.

    I, for one, love the fact the Lost Hills Elders have cut Lyons off of all support but refuse to remove him from power--thus making the fundamentalists the Rebels.

    I love what they did with New Vegas' Brotherhood but I actually enjoyed the whole plot about how the Lone Wanderer turned the BoS' military disaster into a victory. I also predicted, correctly, they were setting up the chapter to turn evil 2 years before the events of Fallout 4.

    I was hoping for a lot of information on the CW chapter but got very little.
  12. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Except The Force Awakens still made it seem like the universe had changed, and there were new power players, rather than hinging entirely off of the old.

    For example TFA portrayed the main villains as "The First Order", a group of rebel insurgents who wished to bring back the days of The Empire. Had they re-introduced The Empire in it's full-force, like Fallout 3 did with The Enclave, it would have bothered me a lot more.
    [QUOTE justified retcons are acceptable parts of Fallout lore because Chris Avellone himself said that it was totally a retcon that the Vaults were mouse mazes.[/QUOTE]
    There's a clear difference between retcons that rewrite the lore, and retcons which explore the lore.

    The "Vaults are Social Experiments" retcon, while it can be debated whether it was a good one or not, didn't actually contradict any previous lore. If you go back and play Fallout 1, with the knowledge of the Vaults being social experiments in mind, then the lore of the game still makes perfect sense.
    You could make it so we could learn about them through Vaults and pre-war documents, but bringing them back in full-force as a villain once again is a no-no.
    I never said there wasn't backstory, but there's nothing interesting about there goals.

    A bland "We're helping people now" type motive doesn't feel like it does such an interesting faction justice.
    I agree with UPDATED AND EXPLORED, but not bringing back for brand recognition.

    Seeing the Brotherhood's proggresion on the West Coast is interesting, because it seems natural. They start off with humble begginings, begin sending missions to northern california, tensions rise with the NCR, a war occurs, and there faction slowly begins dying. The East Coast plotline can be boiled down to "Ok, so they are on the East Coast now, at full-force, so separated from there original faction that we learn very little of how they've changed over time, ect.", they seem like they were just dragged along for brand recognition, as opposed to having any natural-feeling progression.

    Similarly, seeing the Enclave back in full force is boring, because it seems like absolutely nothing has changed with there faction after the events of Fallout 2.
    But the Enclave are mostly destroyed, and those that weren't intergrated in to society.

    There is very little chance of them ever rebuilding, so it seems like a pointless goal for them.
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  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    It seems mostly a matter of taste then. I'm not interested in a bunch of Enclave members in the past but an organization which is dedicated to conquering the Wasteland as well as subjugating or exterminating the mutants which inhabit it.

    Also, perhaps a "good" incarnation which is bringing peace and order. Because the contrast would be interesting.

    Just leaving it on the dustbin of history seems a waste, but YMMV.

    Honestly, I found it interesting because of how much of a disaster it turned out to be and how Fallout 4 followed up on it. F3 has Elder Lyons try to make the world a better place and what he gets is half his chapter killed or driven to desert along with the Lost Hills Elders to abandon him. He also creates Ashur as his "make the world a better place" dogma results in an ends justify the means dystopia.

    Elder Lyons is basically BoS George W. Bush or General Custer. Even so, you can make sure he "wins" and what the consequences of that might be. Which we see in F4. Arthur Maxson made the story interesting and it wouldn't have been any good if not for the fact the set up was in F3.

    Alas, they could have done a lot more with it too.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I found Elder Lyons a sympathetic interesting character and felt the tragedy of F4 was actually sad--one of the few genuinely emotional things in the setting. A man who wanted to do good and right by people who left only a legacy of murder and fascism.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  14. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    It's not laziness when it's deliberate? I think many would disagree on that one.

    The Jackals and Vipers are still mentioned. The Vipers in particular are said to worship snakes.

    No you don't actually. You can buy Tandi, fight Garl for Tandi, sneak her out (does require killing 2 guards) or if you meet the right requirements the raiders will think you're Garl's father and let her go if you pass a speech check.

    West Tek's research was moved to Mariposa so it could remain under military supervision and lessen the chance of espionage. The Enclave didn't have any involvement with FEV until they stumbled upon Mariposa, so what was the point in Vault 87 having it as well?

    So because Chris said one thing was a retcon every retcon is acceptable? Ok...

    You misunderstand what I am saying. They had just lost their main base and countless soldiers, they still had soldiers in Navarro who were fighting off the NCR. Why would they suddenly listen to someone who claimed to be the President and move all that way?

    That's not the point of the original game. And arguably if you don't help Amata Vault 101 remains sealed to a terrible fate.

    The BOS had a lesser presence in Fallout 2 and had even suffered casualties after an Enclave attack. It's ridiculous to think a whole bunch of them travelled all that way for potentially nothing.

    No you don't see, and don't put words in my mouth. Seeing the NCR again made sense because of the location and we get many new factions to see, not just all old ones that have no reasonable development behind them. There's a reason why the Followers are in the Mojave, there's a reason the NCR are in the Mojave. As for the Enclave, we don't even know Enclave members are still around unless we recruit Gannon. It's not like there's a massive Enclave base with troops roaming around.

    That's because most of the mutants have personality.

    Have a small reference or another group descended from the old government/inspired by it.

    Nope you're just fucking with me now, there's no way you meant that.

    But when the setting is completely different from before you need plausible reasons to include any old factions if they are included at all. Given F3 had the BOS it makes sense (a little) to have the BOS in the Commonwealth, though really it's still stretching it.

    The Minutemen aren't boring because they are new, they are boring because the writing for them is shit.
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I am still not sure what exactly you liked about them though, don't get me wrong, I don't hate them as villain. It's just that they are not offering any debth.

    They really are like a parody nazi villain and I think that is one of the least things a Fallout game needs. The Master and his Army had their lulz moments as well, but it fits into the theme of Fallout and the conversations you have with the Master, Lou and others was pretty good. I can't say the same about the President for example which was nothing more but 'lulz all mutants have to die!' and that's it.

    Also, they really didn't give much insight into what the US was before the war, given the fact that they don't talk much about it, and that it was like 200+ after the bombs droped at this point.

    By ruining it for many people that liked the old games, bravo.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
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  16. Millim

    Millim Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite [REDACTED]

    Oct 13, 2010
    Fallout 3 is more like the Phantom menace
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  17. ikazuchi87

    ikazuchi87 First time out of the vault

    Jun 16, 2007

    I feel sick when I see this excuse. "new players" became equivalent of "What about the children?" phrase and it's used by almost every big mainstream company to fuck things up and dumb shit down.
    • [Like] [Like] x 8
  18. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    All this "is for the new players" shit seems to be under the impression that anything older than 5 years is lost to history. Like people apparently can't play older games that can be run on a toaster nowadays, they need a shooter to dumb it down.

    Edit: That said, I agree Fallout 3 is the Force Awakens.
    A shitty product, with bad writting, bland characters and terrible pacing that relies too much on iconography to fool people into thinking it actually has a place in the series that just ends up telling the story of a Mary Sue savior because it's little more than a fanfic written by a hack after a buyout because the president of the previous company did countless retarded decisions with the franchise.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
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  19. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Are you implying that the "masses" a.k.a "new players" are unwashed, dumbfucked masses (or at least kids who don't know shit about good games because they haven't yet the chance to try one) who can't be bothered to use a brain cell or two to, you know, maybe at the very least just pirate Fallout 1&2 to try it, or maybe even spend less than ~$5 whenever Fallout Classical Trilogy went on sales?

    Got it. More news at 11.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  20. Kremin

    Kremin Guest

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