Fallout 3 is The Force Awakens

[CT Phipps]

I think I go against most of the community here when I say that I don't really mind the presence of the Enclave and BoS in DC in itself. But I do think it was handled in a bit of a ham-fisted way. And I don't really like the Purifier main quest.

Imagine how much better the story could have been if it was about the Brotherhood and the Enclave fighting over DC and among themselves, and how their long treks across the ruins of the US had changed them..

Interestingly, I think the only way Fallout 4 could have been saved would be to dramatically downplay the Railroad and Minutemen to focus solely on a Gray and Gray Morality conflict between the Brotherhood and Institute.

 

[Black Angel]

Eh, to each their own.

Then again, I love Fallout 3 far more than the originals.

And here's the thing:

Fallout 3 is NOT Fallout. Like, at all.

All of what made Fallout Fallout, comes down the mindset of the true progenitor of Fallout 1, Tim Cain, vs. that of Todd Howard.

My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.

Hey, violence is funny - let's all just own up to it! Violence done well is ****ing hilarious.

These two differing mindset is what drives the creation of each of the games they created.

I mean, okay, you like what you like and there's no changing that, but at least understand that Fallout was Tim's creation and only Tim's authentic so far, based on those design principles written by Tim all those years ago.

Interestingly, I think the only way Fallout 4 could have been saved would be to dramatically downplay the Railroad and Minutemen to focus solely on a Gray and Gray Morality conflict between the Brotherhood and Institute.

I'd rather not have the BoS at all, and focus solely on the Institute and how they were described by Zimmerman back in FO3.

I still can't believe they made FO4 as if they've forgotten they've made FO3.

 

[CT Phipps]

And here's the thing:

Fallout 3 is NOT Fallout. Like, at all.

All of what made Fallout Fallout, comes down the mindset of the true progenitor of Fallout 1, Tim Cain, vs. that of Todd Howard.

These two differing mindset is what drives the creation of each of the games they created.

I mean, okay, you like what you like and there's no changing that, but at least understand that Fallout was Tim's creation and only Tim's authentic so far, based on those design principles written by Tim all those years ago.

Well, if Tim Cain said it, then it must be true.



16:00

Fallout's Mission Statement:

What Makes Fallout Cool

1. Mega Levels of Violence

 

[Crni Vuk]

I guess you watched the whole video, and this was the only statement you got out of it? Well, I guess we all live in our own bubble of confirmation bias. Why not mention as well where he talks about the choice for Turn Based combat (at around 20:00) and the role playing system of the game, where he doesn't like morality but that people live with the consequences of their choices (at 43:00).

The biggest problem is simply the fact that Fallout 3s dialog is a sorry attempt at role playing and debth where as Fallout 1, while it contains viollence and a lot of it, it also contains a hell lot of well thought out quests, memorable NPCs and intelligent dialogue. We can simply compare both games and then we can look at all the informations we have, like the developer quotes. I think no one here ever made the claim that Tim - or any of us for that matter - doesn't think that viollence can be pretty funny.

But at the end of the day, it simply wasn't the only appeal of Fallout 1 and 2. However in Fallout 3, everything is visual and the game is at the core a shooter not a role playing game.

 

[CT Phipps]

I guess you watched the whole video, and this was the only statement you got out of it? Well, I guess we all live in our own bubble of confirmation bias.

Oh brahmin fertilizer, you do not get to invoke the holy word of Cain then ignore it when someone points out otherwise.

:p

I've played the first games and they offer a substantively enjoyable murder experience with lots of action against rats, Radscorpions, Super Mutants, the Death Claw, and many other things to kill in varieties of wonderfully gory ways. Fallout and Fallout 2 are spectacularly good action games and the fact the later games became shooters isn't remotely a betrayal of the original franchise but bringing out the elements drawn from Mad Max and Wasteland. Reality about Tim Cain's statement and misusing it or stating you can't do a decent action and exploration game both seem to be pointless to bring up, though, because it seems it's somehow more authentic to say Fallout 3 isn't Fallout versus "I just didn't enjoy it."

The biggest problem is simply the fact that Fallout 3s dialog is a sorry attempt at role playing and debth where as Fallout 1, while it contains viollence and a lot of it, it also contains a hell lot of well thought out quests, memorable NPCs and intelligent dialogue. We can simply compare both games and then we can look at all the informations we have, like the developer quotes. I think no one here ever made the claim that Tim - or any of us for that matter - doesn't think that viollence can be pretty funny.

But at the end of the day, it simply wasn't the only appeal of Fallout 1 and 2. However in Fallout 3, everything is visual and the game is at the core a shooter not a role playing game.

I can talk at length about Fallout 3's social satire, it's artistic use of Washington D.C, and it's work on the American dream vs. the American reality. It made expansive use of America's history of slavery, the hypocrisy of its founders, and really good interesting quests examining things like democracy and authoritarianism without detracting from the fun adventure-like experience.

It had great quests, fun locations, and some really good in-jokes all round. I loved the characters and I felt really moved by the quests that take you in a hellish world and say that YOU, alone, can save it.

It is DAMN WELL a roleplaying game too.

 

[AlphaSlayerZX]

MisterCaption on the BOS.

hbomberguy on rehashing.

Speaking of hbomberguy, apparently he has plans on making a video about Fallout 4.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Seriously, we're talking in circles right now and I am feeling like talking to a wall right now. The issue isn't what ever if Fallout 3 contains viollence or that it is funny. The issue is when it becomes pretty much the only redeeming point of the game. Do you really think the stunt Bethesda pulled off at the purifier with your companions refusing to help you, despite of their immunity to radiation is a great thing? Or talking a computer that believes to be the President of the Enclave into suicide with less then 10 words? If Fallout 3 was a parody on RPGs, maybe it could have worked ... but that way, all it contains is exploding heads and limbs.

It is DAMN WELL a roleplaying game too.

Not for me, no. It's a first person shooter which borrows some elements from RPGs in my opinion, just as how Oblivion is some kind of adventure game that borrows RPG mechanics. That's my opinion on it.

And the fact that many see this kind of game as the 'epidome' of RPGs, really frightens me sometimes.

There was no point for me in Fallout 3 where I had to back down, because I could simply force my way trough the game, like in a shooter. None of my 'choices' in the skills really mattered. I couldn't talk Eden out of his plan? Hey! There is a code lying around! And if I was to 'evil' I could simply donate caps and water to beggars, becoming the saviour of the wasteland. Hell, the DLC they released even reversed the 'choice' of your sacrifice in the end ...

 

[Black Angel]

Well, if Tim Cain said it, then it must be true.



16:00

Fallout's Mission Statement:

What Makes Fallout Cool

1. Mega Levels of Violence

Is that all you got? Seriously, here's one trump card that you could've used instead:

Tim Cain likes Fallout 3.

Yeah, that's right. Frankly, that doesn't mean anything for their work because even Avellone admitted he liked some of Bethesda's games. Producing actual masterpieces requires lots of energy and brain work, so they had to vent off the frustration and let go of the weight on their shoulders by having mindless fun with trash games.

In return, I'll give you this:

If you don't want to bother watching this, here's the essay version of the video.

Primary highlight of what the guy pointed out:

Before Fallout became it's own distinct franchise, it was supposed to be a post-apocalyptic game based on Steve Jackson's PnP ruleset G.U.R.P.S[1]. This game had five key tenets and this is part of what I will focus on when I make statements like “Bethesda will never create a good Fallout game”;

1. Rule #1: Multiple Decisions. We will always allow for multiple solutions to any obstacle.
2. Rule #2: No Useless Skills. The skills we allow you to take will have meaning in the game.
3. Rule #3: Dark humor was good. Slap-stick was not.
4. Rule #4: Let the player play how he wants to play.
5. Rule #5: Your actions have repercussions.

 

[CT Phipps]

Seriously, we're talking in circles right now and I am feeling like talking to a wall right now.

I'm not trying to talk to a wall, I'm trying to share the reasons why I think this is a great game and one of my all-time favorites. I'm also trying to share what I see as good reasons why Bethesda did a remake of the original storyline as a way to introduce new players to the section.

The issue isn't what ever if Fallout 3 contains viollence or that it is funny. The issue is when it becomes pretty much the only redeeming point of the game. Do you really think the stunt Bethesda pulled off at the purifier with your companions refusing to help you, despite of their immunity to radiation is a great thing? Or talking a computer that believes to be the President of the Enclave into suicide with less then 10 words? If Fallout 3 was a parody on RPGs, maybe it could have worked ... but that way, all it contains is exploding heads and limbs.

I think without Broken Steel, Fallout 3 would be a massive waste of time. The fact they fixed the mistakes of the ending game and allowed a more natural, well-designed ending for the game to be inserted really won a lot of points for the company from me.

Alas, they squadered them with Fallout 4's DLC.

There was no point for me in Fallout 3 where I had to back down, because I could simply force my way trough the game, like in a shooter. None of my 'choices' in the skills really mattered. I couldn't talk Eden out of his plan? Hey! There is a code lying around! And if I was to 'evil' I could simply donate caps and water to beggars, becoming the saviour of the wasteland. Hell, the DLC they released even reversed the 'choice' of your sacrifice in the end ...

That seems like providing options.

 

[Black Angel]

I'm also trying to share what I see as good reasons why Bethesda did a remake of the original storyline as a way to introduce new players to the section.

Except, it's not a remake, bruh. It's shameless, uncreative rehash of the original plot.

And to an extent, Fallout 4 was a shameless, uncreative rehash of Fallout 3's plot (First you're looking for your father, next you're looking for you son. Boring.)

I think without Broken Steel, Fallout 3 would be a massive waste of time. The fact they fixed the mistakes of the ending game and allowed a more natural, well-designed ending for the game to be inserted really won a lot of points for the company from me.

So basically you're condoning the practice of cutting a content supposedly available in the base game, only to sell it later as DLCs. Good job, keep up the good work mate.

 

[CaptJ]

Really, the game is basically The Force Awakens. It's an attempt to retell the original games in such a way that an entire new generation of fans can be introduced to all of the wonders of Fallout and its lore. It's why I have difficulty with a lot of fans who keep saying they should have introduced new factions for the East Coast.

Did we just agree on something? While I do agree on that analogy, I have a negative spin to it (shocking, I know). It isn't just a joke that people forgot that Fallout 1 and 2 exist despite the number 3 implying that first and second game preceeds it. It is skinning a person and wearing it. Then, you have this.

https://www.interactive.org/press/index.asp

Apparently Todd Howard created the Fallout franchise.

BTW: I don't really like Force Awaken especially how they made Rey magically good at everything.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think without Broken Steel, Fallout 3 would be a massive waste of time. The fact they fixed the mistakes of the ending game and allowed a more natural, well-designed ending for the game to be inserted really won a lot of points for the company from me.

Alas, they squadered them with Fallout 4's DLC.

By making the ending completely meaningless, 'sacrifice' was this bige huge theme of Fallout 3. Todd said that much in the countless interviews and it was even so important, they WANTED to force a decision on the player where either he or this Paladin in distress had to get in the purifier to activate the thing, regardless if you had either Fawkes, Charon or Sergant RL-3 with you.

"Star the puririfer Fawkes"
"I'm Sorry, my Companion, but no. We all have our own destinies and yours culminates here. I would not rob you of that"

Quality writing right there.

How comes you don't see why Fallout 3 is a really bad RPG?

If you chose your self though, fear not! a 5.99$ DCL is on the way resurrecting the player.

 

[CT Phipps]

By making the ending completely meaningless, 'sacrifice' was this bige huge theme of Fallout 3. Todd said that much in the countless interviews and it was even so important, they WANTED to force a decision on the player where either he or this Paladin in distress had to get in the purifier to activate the thing. But, fear not! a 5.99$ DCL is on the way resurecting the player, for the case he chose himself!

How comes you don't see why Fallout 3 is a really bad RPG?

Sacrifice plays literally no role in 99% of the game so why in the world would I be upset with its removal? You know what game has a lot of sacrifice? Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. That's a game about sacrifice and cost. Fallout 3 is a game which has themes about slavery, American exceptionalism, letting go of the past, the importance of the past, and blind fanaticism but sacrifice? I don't see it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Did you even play Fallout 3?

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

letting go of the past

What?

This is the same game that has people scavenging a pre-war supermarket for 200 years. Fallout 3's radio played only pre-war songs. There is no message of letting go of the past is there? If you can think of an actual answer please tell me. I'm not trying to be a dick but where in Fallout 3 does it have this message?

 

[CT Phipps]

Did you even play Fallout 3?

What exactly are you arguing? That the base game has a shit ending? If so, yeah, I agree. One of the worst endings of all time. It ruins a great game and is probably one of the single most tonally deficient hackneyed pieces of crap writing in video game history.

My love of Fallout 3 is predicated entirely on the fixed version the same way my love of the Witcher games requires the Enhanced Edition's fixing of their script.

Awful awful stupid writing that would be the worst video game ending of all time if not for the fact Mass Effect 3 exists.

What?

This is the same game that has people scavenging a pre-war supermarket for 200 years. Fallout 3's radio played only pre-war songs. There is no message of letting go of the past is there? If you can think of an actual answer please tell me. I'm not trying to be a dick but where in Fallout 3 does it have this message?

The Enclave represents the evils of Pre-War America embodied by its conquest, destruction of Natives, and blind adherance to war mongering. A big theme of the game is realizing the Old World as represented by them is something which needs to be destroyed. Only by destroying the Enclave can a new Eden be established (Harold helps) and a new tomorrow created. It's contrasted against the preservation of the past as well with the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln Memorial as well.

Taking the good and destroying the bad.

The Enclave are the perfect foe for Fallout 3, symbolizing everything which destroyed the Old World.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

What exactly are you arguing? That the base game has a shit ending? If so, yeah, I agree. One of the worst endings of all time. It ruins a great game and is probably one of the single most tonally deficient hackneyed pieces of crap writing in video game history.

My love of Fallout 3 is predicated entirely on the fixed version the same way my love of the Witcher games requires the Enhanced Edition's fixing of their script.

Crni's point is that the game tells you that you sacrificed yourself for the wasteland. Sacrifice was a theme, yet you said it wasn't- that was his point.

 

[Crni Vuk]

What exactly are you arguing? That the base game has a shit ending?

Not just that, but their whole concept was kinda borked from the begining due to their strange design ideas and themes that have to be cramed into everything, regardless if it makes sense or not.

Todd Howard: Art-wise, design-wise, we typically have a design aesthetic for why would they build this and how would they build it. And then when it comes to story stuff and the people, our big themes were sacrifice and survival. What are these people sacrificing to survive? How are they surviving in a unique way so that each town or settlement has their own kind of belief system? Each one has to be bent in some way, they need to be sacrificing something to survive at the level they are and we hope that the player feels the need to make similar choices in what they're going to do to survive.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...-todd-howard-fallout-3-creative-director.html

And this is made worse by the fact, how they come up with a DLC, that makes this 'theme' of theirs completely useless as far as the player goes ... beacuse it simply resurrects you later. And of course the game showers you in all sorts of resoruces, caps, weapons, amunition, power armor ... you name it.

 

[CT Phipps]

Crni's point is that the game tells you that you sacrificed yourself for the wasteland. Sacrifice was a theme, yet you said it wasn't- that was his point.

Yeah and I said 99% of the game has no sacrifice as a theme, therefore it's not a theme. It's a thing at the very end which comes out of nowhere and is ridiculous bullshit.

Not just that, but their whole concept was kinda borked from the begining due to their strange design ideas and themes that have to be cramed into everything, regardless if it makes sense or not.

Todd Howard: Art-wise, design-wise, we typically have a design aesthetic for why would they build this and how would they build it. And then when it comes to story stuff and the people, our big themes were sacrifice and survival. What are these people sacrificing to survive? How are they surviving in a unique way so that each town or settlement has their own kind of belief system? Each one has to be bent in some way, they need to be sacrificing something to survive at the level they are and we hope that the player feels the need to make similar choices in what they're going to do to survive.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...-todd-howard-fallout-3-creative-director.html

I wonder where Todd thinks this is on display because it's not in any of the settlements.

The vampires? The Republic of Dave? Rivet City? The cannibals? Sierra? What's she sacrificing?

 

[Kohno]

Yeah and I said 99% of the game has no sacrifice as a theme, therefore it's not a theme.

So they even failed to deliver the theme they were after.

That game can not go any more horribly wrong.