Fallout 3 writing editorial

[grayx]

Please don't forget that jewel in the crown, the wet dream of any wannabe RPG writer: Motheruckingship Zeta. Only things that were missing were dragons, nazis and, of course, zombies. If it had those things, it would have been perfect.

Come on, we all know that, it there is a hell for RPG writers, some of those so-called writers and scribblers at Bethesda will have first rows. At least.

 

[Yamu]

There is still stupid stuff like fresh apples in forgotten places, though.

I'm reminded of the chocolate chip cookie at the Sierra Army Depot in Fallout 2. In fairness, loot placement is more a game design issue than a writing issue, and the Interplay games are guilty of more than a few of the same sins as Bethesda's (for instance, 200-year-old pharmaceuticals don't seem quite as suspect as 200-year-old food at first glance, but should set off the same flags when given even a modicum of thought). Iplay's writing and design just gave us more to keep us impressed and allow our suspension of disbelief a chance to kick in in the background. (And, admittedly, Gamebryo's random loot tables for containers kicked the incongruities up to a whole new level.)

 

[Crni Vuk]

As seen above, Anna Holt is probably above 50 years old. Notice the wrinkles on her neck and mouth and the swollen cheeks. Madison Li looks younger.

meh, com on. All faces look as ugly like that in F3 just as they do in Oblivion. This is more an issue because of the shitty engine and the fact that guys at Bethesda didnt knew how to make proper faces.

Food doesn't have that luxury, and even if food remained edible for hundreds of years (rather than crumbling to dust/compost/etc.) then it's still ridiculous to think that there would be enough edible food in the Capital Wasteland to sustain anyone for more than about a year. Seeing grocery stores inhabited by raiders that are still stocked with goods 200 years after the war is ridiculous. What, do the raiders just not eat?

not sure if its true but in an absolute vacuum a banana can be keept edible for 7 years I think.

 

[Akratus]

Uh, guys. I've already invalidated your discussion.

Well if you want to bring logic to fallout 3 you shouldn't examine individual plot points. The set up itself is flawed.

Why the fuck did both the brotherhood and the enclave march all the fucking way across the country to the capital, when the Brotherhood has no reason to care and the enclave should be too dead to do this?

And who's idea was it to give a very important chemical used in one military base on the west coast to a private company on the other side of the country?

Then there's the setting. How is all this food still around from before the war 200 years later? What do the people eat? With no protection, how do the settlements survive in a death claw, super mutant, enclave, mercenary infested irradiated hell hole? Because they have a few cows and 4 caravans?

You expect to set up a story with these things and make me care about setting up some down stream overly complex water purifier plan of which the only real function is to make some hackneyed sacrifice plot? This is a plot that is broken at the very core.

 

[Walpknut]

If they had done something different with the Enclave, like they actually being a remnant of a remnant, imagine like Autumm's dad and Autumm escaped the oil rig with the President AI, and after traveling to the capital escaping the persecution of the NCR they stumble upon a rather large military base full of old equipment like power armor, vertibirds and weapons, Food supplies and the like.

After a few years of living in the base, isolated but well fed Autumm jr. starts to get weird ideas about restoring the Enclave, probably thanks to the President AI so he starts hiring mercenaries by giving them the equipment in exchange for work, they take over a few vaults acquiring needed scientific personel to prepare for a takeover of the Capital, but they know they have limited resources, so they mostly keep on the downlow, they may have the base and equipment, but their vertibirds barely have any fuel, the armors they have are either in poor condition or are all rather old models, while they could try and force everyone under their flag with force a battle of such proportions would drain them rather quickly, after learning of this Project that seeks to purify the water of the Wasteland they decide the best course of action is to take over it so the people of the region have no other choice but to join them. The AI may have it's own shortsighted plans for the Projectm but Autumm actually looks forward to use the Purifier to gain power rather than genocide.

The Capital BOS could have similar intentions but different approaches, so the concept of Helping either group would have it's own set of pros and cons. And then there would be a reason for all those people that want to have a "join the enclave" option to want it.

 

[Kyuu]

Having just completed Bioshock Infinite, all I can say is...

Wow. Just, wow. It really makes the piss poor writing of Fallout 3 stand out like a sore thumb.

This is rather off-topic, but... Bioshock Infinite is actually good? o_0

 

[Gaspard]

Six pages of discussion on the topic of "Why does feces taste like shit?" and dissections of it in the vein of "Are you dumb or what? Come on, if you look at it on particle level...."

EDIT: I actually like a few points in that idea of yours Walpknut. Would be an OK mod

 

[Tagaziel]

This is rather off-topic, but... Bioshock Infinite is actually good? o_0

Yes. It is.

 

[Crni Vuk]

If they had done something different with the Enclave, like they actually being a remnant of a remnant, imagine like Autumm's dad and Autumm escaped the oil rig with the President AI, and after traveling to the capital escaping the persecution of the NCR they stumble upon a rather large military base full of old equipment like power armor, vertibirds and weapons, Food supplies and the like.
.

I think the only real way how the Enclave would have worked for me in an new game (as faction) is by making them actually a faction you can join. Either as "gray" and rather neutral faction, or one that is very selfish as far as their goals goes, but not as an outright "evil in your face action" that just wants to do some mass genocide. No just a faction that would for example ask the people if they want something and trade for it maybe, but not hesitate to either use violance, intimidation and bribery to achieve their goals. Like if the citizens of Megaton dont want to hand over their nuclear weapon to them peacefully they would just move in with their troops and march away with it, and shoot everyone in the process that doesnt agree with them.

Actually if I think about it, the nuclear bomb in Megaton should have played a much bigger role in the game. Megaton should have been not a town build around a stupid crater that makes no sense but actually a town build around an old nuclear missile silo

with the town on top of it, where the "usual" and poor citizens reside and the more privileged people living underground inside the base with the leaders, nuclear cult etc. directly inside the missile room, which they see as their sacret temple. I mean seriously which faction would not want to controll an fully operational nuclear missile silo? Could have been at least an major side plot.

 

[Ilosar]

Meh. Coulda been worse.

They could have ended it like Mass Effect 3.

I think the only real way how the Enclave would have worked for me in an new game (as faction) is by making them actually a faction you can join. Either as "gray" and rather neutral faction, or one that is very selfish as far as their goals goes, but not as an outright "evil in your face action" that just wants to do some mass genocide. No just a faction that would for example ask the people if they want something and trade for it maybe, but not hesitate to either use violance, intimidation and bribery to achieve their goals. Like if the citizens of Megaton dont want to hand over their nuclear weapon to them peacefully they would just move in with their troops and march away with it, and shoot everyone in the process that doesnt agree with them.

Actually if I think about it, the nuclear bomb in Megaton should have played a much bigger role in the game. Megaton should have been not a town build around a stupid crater that makes no sense but actually a town build around an old nuclear missile silo

Interesting concept, but I don't know what they would do with one single missile anyway. Destroy the Citadel to fuck up the BoS? Pull a Ulysses and nuke some important trade route or another?

Still, it's already much less stupid that sacrficing all to hold a water purifier that is placed downstream of running water, when the game also shows purified water is already fairly easy to come by. Fallout 3's plot was a mess, but it's Bethesda so that was a given.

 

[Walpknut]

I was worse than the ending of ME3, ME3's ending is bad because it was very rushed, and the original game didn't even have an epilogue aside from the Buzz Aldrin thing. But after the free DLC the endings, while still rushed are explained better and well they actually show you little images of characters in the aftermath.

FO3 on the other hadn gives you the option of dying or dying, the endings only change 1 line of dialogue and it doesn't feel like you accomplished anything, and you had to pay 10 dollars to at least get a peek of what happens with the purified water.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Interesting concept, but I don't know what they would do with one single missile anyway. Destroy the Citadel to fuck up the BoS? Pull a Ulysses and nuke some important trade route or another?

well what would the BoS do with HELIOS One? What would House do with his army of robots?

What people always did with "weapons". either fighting or protecting them self by scaring the enemy. Imagine an weapon like a MIRV missile in the hands of an faction like the enclave that has the manpower to operate and defend such an base. They could treat any major faction on the land. A faction like the NCR would think twice before attacking the Enclave for example if they could destroy Shady Sands with the push of one button. Literaly.

That and to prevent that any other faction would get their hands on it. Its valuable technology after all.

 

[Ilosar]

I was worse than the ending of ME3, ME3's ending is bad because it was very rushed, and the original game didn't even have an epilogue aside from the Buzz Aldrin thing. But after the free DLC the endings, while still rushed are explained better and well they actually show you little images of characters in the aftermath.

FO3 on the other hadn gives you the option of dying or dying, the endings only change 1 line of dialogue and it doesn't feel like you accomplished anything, and you had to pay 10 dollars to at least get a peek of what happens with the purified water.

Well ME3's ending worse than rushed IMO, it makes no goddamn sense, is choke full of plot holes and inconsistencies, and the EC didn't help by adding a few retarded scenes and attempting to explain space magic with terms like ''organic energy''. Its's still fucking horrible. But I digress.

What I mean is that FO3's story was already pretty bad all the way through, so the bad ending, to me, didn't come as that much of a surprise, albeit Fawke's comment on why he couldn't enter the chamber was headdesk worthy. And Broken Steel didn't just change the ending, it added gameplay and an extension to the storyline (that only raised more plot holes, such as why the hell didn't the Enclave use their killer satellite to blast the Citadel into oblivion, but still).

well what would the BoS do with HELIOS One? What would House do with his army of robots?

Well HELIOS is a power plant and ARCHIMEDES is a repeatable use laser, which is more useful than a one-time nuke. An army of robot is also much more practical in a wasteland IMO.

I guess a missile IS valuable technology, but wasn't there a base in FO3 where there was an active missile silo already? The place where you get the T-51b if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Walpknut]

Fallout 3 is a messy web of both interesting and dumb ideas, poorly implemented and not that well tought out.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I guess a missile IS valuable technology, but wasn't there a base in FO3 where there was an active missile silo already? The place where you get the T-51b if I'm not mistaken.

yes and you could even fire that missile even if it never said where it would land. It was one of the more retarded moments of F3. The whole fact how "nuclear weapons" are totally trivialized, from blowing up Megaton, to the use of that "portable nuclear catapult" ... always when you think it cant get worse ...

 

[Ilosar]

yes and you could even fire that missile even if it never said where it would land. It was one of the more retarded moments of F3. The whole fact how "nuclear weapons" are totally trivialized, from blowing up Megaton, to the use of that "portable nuclear catapult" ... always when you think it cant get worse ...

But man, it's like, Fallout and stuff, so it has radiashun and nukes and stuff

You also forgot the explosive nuclear cars, man. Iz shiny

 

[Jabberwok]

For the most part, Bethesda just did a terrible job of explaining things. But the one massive plot hole that ruined the entire game for me was when the end screen calls me a coward for making the ONLY LOGICAL DECISION in the end of the game, which is to have the guy who is IMMUNE TO RADIATION walk into the irradiated room and flip the switch. And Fawkes for some reason acts hurt that I would want him to walk a few feet into a room instead of killing myself. And then the narration gets judgmental on me like I should have made a retarded 'noble' gesture instead of a reasonable decision. It's clumsy, misguided, moralizing like that which tells me that Bethesda should stick to ES, and not be allowed to write Fallout games.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

For the most part, Bethesda just did a terrible job of explaining things. But the one massive plot hole that ruined the entire game for me was when the end screen calls me a coward for making the ONLY LOGICAL DECISION in the end of the game, which is to have the guy who is IMMUNE TO RADIATION walk into the irradiated room and flip the switch. And Fawkes for some reason acts hurt that I would want him to walk a few feet into a room instead of killing myself. And then the narration gets judgmental on me like I should have made a retarded 'noble' gesture instead of a reasonable decision. It's clumsy, misguided, moralizing like that which tells me that Bethesda should stick to ES, and not be allowed to write Fallout games.

They didn't want to make another slide for.. some reason or another, and given you didn't technically sacrifice yourself they picked the slide where you get called a coward. Which is really dumb and feels a little lazy, but maybe Ron Perlman was busy and couldn't be called back, who knows.

EDIT: I don't really like calling a dev "lazy" because behind-the-scenes problem can cast a whole different light on some choices. But in this case I can't possibly imagine what the problem was, besides not being able to call back Ron Perlman for a couple of lines.

 

[Crni Vuk]

the problem was, that Todd Howard believs an RPG doesnt need a "concept phase" because to somewhat quote hime "thats not something we really do".

They more or less jump right from the brain storming to the "making" of the game.

I really can imagine how that works. Doing things on the fly. Literaly.
One day they do this cool idea, tomorrow they do some other crazy stuff, maybe even throwing half of the work from the previous day out and so on.

I be this sounds like an very creative and amazing way to do something. Particularly games. But the issue is, that if you dont spend the time and "resources" on a proper concept phase, you end up with something like Fallout 3 of Oblivion, where you have a lot of "cool fluff", but a very boring and shallow world and where it feels like the stuff that is there doesnt really make always sense. Not to mention you also can not really create an coherent atmosphere. I mean does it never occur to people the people that a game like Oblivion, which is cleary a "open world" and "sandbox" type of experience doesnt do well with a main quest which is trying to create a sense of time preassure (You have to save the world! Hury! Get to the son of the emperor before the evil guys do!), but it actually doesnt matte if you do the quests after one day or 10 years of wandering around in Oblivion. And this is somewhat true for Fallout 3 as well. I see that they "want" people to explore and not feel preassured. But really. SOMETIMES you should do it. If only to get a feeling of authenticity.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

As far as I can tell, what Todd Howard meant was that they like to get the game running as early as possible and implement stuff early on so they can iterate on what works and what doesn't systems-wise. They definitely did a lot of concepting for Fallout 3's world and we saw as much.