Fallout 3 writing editorial

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    well the console had one big advantage, or well it still has. Its seen as "family" friendly. For the marketing this is very valuable. The PC had always this label of beeing a platform "for the nerds" while the console always seen as pure gamer or toy platform. Easier to sell that super violent game to the soccer mom when her little brat ask for the next GTA game or CoD. However as the Wii has proven in the past, it can be a great and fun platform, for the whole family. Nintendo dominated that market for a very long time for example.

    Part of the problem is though, that many games like Assasins Creed or CoD require a lot of money. And most of it is spend for the marketing. So a game like the new Hitman for example has to at least sell 3 million copies, or it will not even make any profit. Just to say this, Diablo 2 sold around 1 milion copies (probably a bit more), and it was one of the most succesfull games back then. Now imagine if a game like Fallout 4 for example would only sell 1 million copies ...
  2. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    PC; Games were usually adult oriented and violent with strategy/puzzle mixed in. I will call it the soldier.

    Console: Games were usually kid friendly. I will call it the child.

    Mainstream gaming and the amalgamation of the two brought on by more powerful console systems: I will call it, the child soldier.

    I wracked my brain but couldn't think of a better analogy.
  3. smber2cnma

    smber2cnma First time out of the vault

    Sep 29, 2010
    Read this and though "that can't be possible", 1 million? I was ready for my jaw to drop in amazement that Diablo 2 sold that small...nope, sold way more.

    1st I found the wiki page stating, "a full seven years after the game's initial release – and 11 million users still play Diablo II and StarCraft." Though okay, maybe that's 10 million SC players.

    Then I realized game stats are really weird:
    Wikipedia lists
    Diablo 2 as selling 4 million copies by 2001
    & also lists WOW sales as 4.7 million while also saying they had over 10 million subscribers in 2012. How's that work?

    Another site gave these numbers from way back in 2006, much larger and I'd say more believable if we add in all the "Battle Chest" sales in Walmart and what not - though it is weird to see more expansions sold than base games.

    1. Diablo II (12 million)
    2. Diablo II: Lord of Destruction (17.5 million)
    3. WOW (10.7 subscribers)
    4. StarCraft, inc. Brood Wars (9.5 million)
    5. Warcraft IIIL Reign of Chaos (3 million)
    6. WCIII: Frozen Throne (5 million)
    7. Diablo (2.5 million)
    8. Warcraft II (1 million)
    1. Warcraft (19 million)
    2. Diablo (18.5 million)
    3. StarCraft (9.5 million)

    In conclusion: DAMN. Blizzard can sell them some games.
  4. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    C&C: Red Alert sold over a dozen million copies. It isn't just Blizzard that's successful.

    The biggest issue with such rankings is the timeframe you take into account. Most publishers only look at the short term, which is why titles that are successful in the long term (Alpha Protocol, I think, and other cult classics) often fail to qualify for sequels.
  5. vix

    vix First time out of the vault

    Apr 3, 2013
    It doesn't. That was my point. You just played the game in bad faith and that's why you made glaring mistakes in your analysis, such as believing that Jefferson Memorial contained the location of Vault 87. A story does require good faith though: Wouldn't be a shame to skip Fallout when first reading that Radaway removes "radiation particles" ?
  6. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yes, it does. Fallout 3 does a really bad job of providing plot exposition and convincing explanations (if it even does provide them in the first place). I don't see how you can argue that the glaring, obvious plot holes are only a result of bad faith.
  7. vix

    vix First time out of the vault

    Apr 3, 2013
    Probably due to the reason that they are described as such by one who made glaring errors in such key points as Anna Holt. An "understudy", "lab assistant", "too young" ? That doesn't make sense to anyone who played the game without trying to fill a quota of "plot holes" in a notebook next to his mouse.

    In my posting I tried to reply to them one by one. Then the author dismissed my points as the products of fanwank. He didn't care counter arguing to one of them. I have to dismiss his as products of bad faith.
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    bad faith? No sorry. No amout of "bad faith" can explain some of the really stupid stuff in Fallout 3 that should never ever happen in ANY RPG. Seriously bad fath or simply "opinion" can not explain those situations where my head almost hit the desk. Expect some spoilers now!

    Just to name two of the most important events.

    In the Enclave base, with the President, when he revelas his plan and motivationsto the player, which is VERY short by the way ... and all the player has to say is "you cant do that!" - "Why?" - "Because its evil" - "I see, I will kill my self now". So one of the main bad guys ... because the player said its evil. Seriously some saturday morning cartoons on cartoon network had better written plots.

    Though if you think this is already an huge skull fuck. Think again. Bethesda, created an even bigger mess.

    The end of the game. Yes. Right before you start the machine your daddy build to clean the water. Bethesda wanted it to be about sacrifice at all costs, yes? Its full of retarded radiation, yes? And you can have followers with you, yes? I guess someone at Bethesda forgot in the last minute of making the game that some creatures in Fallout are COMPLETELY immune to radiation. 3 of them which you can have with you
    1. the Robot 2.
    2. The Supermutant
    3. A Ghoul
    But when you ask them to start the purity project for you, you konw what they answer? They dont want to take your fate away from you ... at least 2 of those characters are saved by you. The Ghoul from slavery and the supermutant from rotting in a cell, maybe I should not have robbed him from his "fate" either I guess. And fixing it all would have been so easy, so simple. Just dont allow the companions to get with you in the champer. Create a situation where they have to stay outside, defend the entrance, or figth somewhere else. The inside of the Jefferson memorial is really not so big. There. Completely avoided plothole ...

    Seriously. No one with a sane mind that enjoys quality RPGs can call "that" great writing.

    maybe I should have said that the numbers are from the release of the game, day one sales. Diablo 3 sold pretty much 10 million games on day one. Diablo 2 was somewhere around 1 and 1.5 Milion.

    Fallout 2 if I remember correctly (Sorry!), sold around 300 000 units.

    Remember it was the 90s.

    Maybe over several years Diablo 2 sold 10 milion units. No clue. But Its VERY unlikely that a game of the 90s sold around 10 milion copies.
  9. Kyuu

    Kyuu Insert Awesome Title Here

    Jul 19, 2007
    Well, besides the issue of you confusing realism and versimilitude, what's your issue with "radiation particles"? That's a real thing. Iodide-131 is the most common and dangerous of those to humans. Look it up.
    According to Wikipedia, Diablo 2 sold over 1 million copies in the first two weeks, which set a record for computer games. Just over a year after release, Diablo 2 had sold around 4 million copies.

    Diablo 3 did not sell 10 million copies on "day one". It had sold 10 million copies 2 months after release.

    You can't really compare a game released in 2000 with a recently released game in terms of simple numbers sold. The games market is different; it's much more mainstream. There is a much larger potential customer base. There's much more marketing and buzz and hype around (AAA) game releases.
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    It does make sense to anyone who expects the game to make sense. Holt is a background character not involved in anything, yet she is taken on board as some sort of expert. Hell, initially I couldn't really tell her apart from Kaplinski, them both being bland and roughly the same.

    You didn't refer to exposition included in the game, making up explanations without refering to source material. That's fanwanking.
  11. vix

    vix First time out of the vault

    Apr 3, 2013
    It doesn't matter is she's a background character; she is a scientist involved in project Purity.

    Everything I wrote, including the statement above, can be found in my source material: Fallout 3. It is *your* arguments, such as Anna Holt not being involved in anything that are made up.
  12. vix

    vix First time out of the vault

    Apr 3, 2013
    @Crni Vuk

    Both points you describe are valid. Though the self-sacrifice was still beautiful, I didn't like them either. I also found the acting of President Eden to be extremely bland in the final stages.
  13. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    The article wasn't that great frankly. Half of the stuff *is* explained in game. The explanations aren't good at all and probably just as bad as what Searanox wrote, but they are explained.

    Why would Three Dog know where Dr.Li is if she moved? As a matter of fact not only Daddy Neeson didn't ask him about her but he didn't even heard her name before. And you couldn't get an updated view on the wasteland from anyone else? Really?

    And in my game I was there with less than a day of delay. How convenient that Suopermutants left the Memorial alone for 20 years and decided to invade it juuuuust as daddy left!

    Daddy says that one of the computers in the memorial could have the loctaion of a GECK in the area. Vault 87 is the only location in the area with a GECK. Therefore if the computer in the Memorial had the location of a GECK in its memory it would point to Vault 87.


    Yes. For five minutes. She wasn't involved when the project was in full force, she was involved when they intended to restart it.
  14. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yes, it does matter. Snatching Holt is like North Korea abducting an intern from a nuclear facility in hopes of learning how to make nukular bombs.

    Source, please? You claiming it has a source doesn't actually prove anything.

    The Official Strategy Guide gives this bit, but beyond that, Holt is a background character of no importance. Compared to Li, who was entirely within the Enclave's grasp, she's completely irrelevant to Project Purity.

    Enclave could've easily snatched Li. Except DEUS EX MACHINA protected her all the way into the Citadel.

    Regardless, when you consider that the Enclave could've simply strafed the Citadel with Vertibirds repeatedly or glass it with Bradley-Hercules, the plot really comes apart. No justification is given as to why the Enclave did not use the obvious approach.
  15. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Well if you want to bring logic to fallout 3 you shouldn't examine individual plot points. The set up itself is flawed.

    Why the fuck did both the brotherhood and the enclave march all the fucking way across the country to the capital, when the Brotherhood has no reason to care and the enclave should be too dead to do this?

    And who's idea was it to give a very important chemical used in one military base on the west coast to a private company on the other side of the country?

    Then there's the setting. How is all this food still around from before the war 200 years later? What do the people eat? With no protection, how do the settlements survive in a death claw, super mutant, enclave, mercenary infested irradiated hell hole? Because they have a few cows and 4 caravans?

    You expect to set up a story with these things and make me care about setting up some down stream overly complex water purifier plan of which the only real function is to make some hackneyed sacrifice plot? This is a plot that is broken at the very core.
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    hair-splitting. Seriously. 10 million copies is still a lot even for 2 months.

    well, yes and no. I think you can compare a lot of things though.

    Companies back then had to make money, just as they do today. With the difference that today there is a much broader access to expertise, thx to more education programms, schools dedicated to design, particularly game design, more people geting involved and interested in that field. Compare the quality of concept art for example done during the 1980s, 1990s and 2000 for games with what you can see now. It is not NOT only about technology, people like Syd Mead or Hr. Giger have thrown out great designs with traditional media long before the PC became a standart in both Graphic design and Visual art (Concept art). Many of those people though worked in huge fields, like the Car industry, Movies etc. But today you have more and more people with the skill and konwledge making art and concepts specifically with games in mind -> see http://www.fzdschool.com/

    So the access to the technology has become much easier as well. Just imagine, not long ago to realize things on the PC took not only ages, but it was also very expensive, as it required hardware and knowledge that had yet to be developed. The software those people developed could easily buy you an home thats how expensive it was. Now? There is more 3D art and stuff out there then ever before, thx to the software becoming affordable for the normal person and the home PC beeing capable to render things in an decent time frame. Seriously, Some projects have been realized completely with free software like Blender. And even very professional software like ZBrush or 3D max are in price ranges a normal person can buy. So money, is less of an factor for people to follow the things they are interested in.

    So with that alone, making games is today not only easier, but also cheaper compared to the past, like the early late 1980s and early 1990s. The teams have been a lot smaller though, companies too, which did not require a game to sell 3 milion units to be profitable. A lot of the tasks have been done only by a handfull of people, be it from the writing, to the concept art and the programming even. Sim City for example was basically made in an garage, by if I remember correctly just a few people, 2 or 3 people. But I am not sure anymore where I have read that so I could be wrong here. Anyway, fact is that over time when games became more popular teams and companies became bigger as well. So if an game was made by maybe 10 people, today it can be easily 100 or even more, with their own teams, and team leaders, concept artists, lead designers and this does not count in the work that is outsourced to people specialiced in character design, creature design, world design (for Half Life 2 they hired Viktor Antonov known for his world designs who also designed the levels/world and characters of dishonored together with many other artists of course). So there are lot of people that have to be feed. And there is still the publisher and investors eventually which want their part of the game as well. But even all that, can be still managed.

    What is really pushing the costs of games high? Its marketing my friend. TV ads, big campaigns, like viral marketing campaigns, AIDA models and what else exists. I guess that a company like Bethesda for example is not doing the marketing all by them self. They probably either go to an known agency (expensive!) or hire consultants with the right expertise. This is very common as far as usual graphic design goes, because graphic design is so close to advertisements, albeit only for the visuals. But the jump from graphic design to marketing is not that high, as far as studing goes its what many do. I remember a chart where they showed what ONLY the production costs of a game like Call of Duty are, and what the marketing costs. Compared to the marketing which have been easily more then 200 milion dollar, the production of the game though was compared to it relatively small, "only" around 40-50m

    Of course such games also generate a lot of money for the companies, but when you have to consider that a game like Modern Warefare might have sold what? 15 million units?

    But I personaly think its a bit disturbing that a game today has to sell a MINIMUM of 3 million units to be succesfull, and when you see that an kick starter project like wasteland 2 or torment numnera asks for "only" 1 million $, then I have the feeling that the costs have reached an point that is in no relation to the game you get. A game like CoD, which costs so much, but offers you maybe entertainment for just a couple of hours. Shooters like Half Life 1 for example could take days to finish them. If you dont rush trough the game. FEAR was one of the shooters that I played not long ago, where I was very surprised how long it took you before you reached the end of the game for example. Compared to that games like Metro are finished in almost 1 day. And still, I am convinced that Wasteland 2 and Numnera will be games of high quality, with great and interesting content and pleasing visuals, as far as the engine and all that goes, I mean the screenshots they have shown look already pretty neat in my eyes. Its not using the latest technology, but who ever said, that would be needed?
  17. vix

    vix First time out of the vault

    Apr 3, 2013
    Considering Three Dog's reporting updates on various events in the Wasteland, he has plenty of sources to get news from.

    Yes, that's a good point. Though I am not sure if that is a story or design flaw. I'd say that they could separate James' escape from the player in order to give a sensible amount of time for things to develop as they did.

    "could" is a proper word but the editorial states "let's go locate the GECK. We need to use the computer at the Jefferson Memorial". That is what I call bad faith, the author clearly twists the meaning "our best chance to find a GECK" to make a protagonist look like a liar.

    I don't understand how you conclude that. The fact that she works with Li, has enough rank to deal with Commonwealth representatives, and is the oldest looking scientist in the Rivet City lab would lead to the opposite: she was in the original Project Purity team and left with others when the project was halted.
  18. sea

    sea Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 5, 2009

    Daddy specifically says he wants to search a database at the Jefferson Memorial for the GECK location.

    From the Fallout Wiki on Anna Holt:
    Okay, so she's not an understudy, but strictly speaking we don't get much information about her background and she appears to be about 30 at most, while Dr. Li is about 40-45 based on her appearance and the game lore available. Therefore I would expect Dr. Holt to be a junior associate on the project and probably was not around 16-20 years earlier when Project Purity was first started - there's no mention of her having ever worked at the Jefferson Memorial before, after all, not to mention hypothetically speaking she'd be about 10-15 years old at the time.
  19. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    That was my point, sea. The Strategy Guide is the only source for her background. Beyond that, she's Generic Broad #2, after Kaplinski, just filling in space without any meaning whatsoever.

    It's another level of scoundrelship when you force players to buy a separate book just to make sense of the game's characters.
  20. Dead Guy

    Dead Guy Senate Board Director oTO Moderator Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Nov 9, 2008
    You know what's a better question?

    Why do these scinetist types run around the wasteland wearing lab coats and high fucking heels?

    Let's go running through the sewers chased by zombies and green shit wearing high heels. What? These were the only shoes I brought when we left rivet city. What if there were a gala dinner or something?