Fallout 4 is not "Skyrim with guns."

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Thebakedpotato, Dec 9, 2015.

  1. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    I disagree. When I completed the Mages Guild quests in Skyrim and they made me head of the guild, I put the game down and didn't even come back to it for months because of how rushed and childish it all was. It's for the "instant gratification" crowd. Oblivion's Mages Guild felt much more thought out - you had to travel everywhere and please everyone just to be accepted into the guild!

    In Skyrim, I'm an apprentice and suddenly I'm promoted to head of the Mages Guild ahead of everyone else because I killed some Thalmor. There's no feeling of earning that title, it just feels arbitrarily given because that's the kind of gratification that kids love. Compared to Oblivion AND Morrowind's Mages Guild questlines, it is severely lacking in content and quality of writing. It may have taken 6-10 hours like you say, but at the end of it, it still feels like you did nothing to deserve being made the head of the Mages Guild - it feels token, arbitrary, and dumbed down.

    Becoming General of the Minutemen in the first quest of the game is just the natural progression we have been seeing with Skyrim. It is the Skyrim Mages Guild quests taken one step further - slowly but surely we are made the Head of these guilds and groups in less and less time with less and less requirements. At this rate, Elder Scrolls VI will have you begin as Emperor Urinal Septum who is also in charge of all major guilds, runs the Dark Brotherhood, and is a Vampire AND Werewolf at the same time.

    Skyrim was not as dumbed down as Fallout 4, but it is a clear progression in that direction and in that sense is a fair comparison in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
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  2. Trash of the Den

    Trash of the Den Jet Dealer

    23
    Dec 11, 2015
    Well I think we all agree that Skyrim was a 10x better developed game then Fallout 4. (Eventhough I didn't like Skyrim. As I'm a morrowind lover.)

    I also think we can all agree that Bethesda should just stick with what they know "Elder Scrolls" and let Obsidian Entertainment handle the fallout franchise.

    Solution: Give all rights too Obsidian Entertainment and let the Ex Black Isle guys work with it. :wiggle:

    Even Goarge Lucas would creme in his pants if they ever announced that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  3. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    There is no suddenly to it. You have to do a damn long questline to get it. While it should have been more detailed in you becoming stronger as a mage everything is there to lend it to you becoming adapt in magic to serve as headcanon/headlore. Like I said, there are trainers for everything magic related in Winterhold.

    As for not deserving, you find a dangerous artifact while doing some college project. Quests thereafter have you realize it is dangerous and must now work to deal with what was uncovered. The dungeons you go through are long and dangerous. In fact if you go straight for the college - as any mage character should, it will be a damn hard questline to complete. Youre up against Dwemer automatons, Falmer, Frost Trolls, Skeleton Dragons, Draugr a Dragon Priest and even the Thalmor themselves because Ancano has at least one assisting him. I dont see anyone else in the Mage college enduring all this shit to save it.

    While it is true the story could have been better for this questline you are severely understating what you do in them and the events that happen in them to go on with this bad meme of 'dumbing things down'. Matter of fact had they added in much more to this questline I doubt most would have completed it. 6-10 hours is a lot by itself. If youre wanting a day to do it all or more then thats just catering to a very hardcore minority.

    The Winterhold questline bears no resemblance whatsoever to becoming the general of the minutemen nor is it the cause or a precursor of it.
     
  4. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    Tolfdir is a master wizard! How come he's not next in line to become head of the college instead of oh wait...the Legendary Dragonborn! The puzzle wasn't even hard, considering a "puzzle" in a Bethesda game is putting the door combination on the back of a claw key or on a wall above the said door with the puzzle. Why would someone have to do a lets play as a Mage? You can play as a thief or a warrior instead and the mages won't be able to tell the difference nor care. As Irwin pointed out there's no ranking system or even a sense of progression. Do you consider Apprentice to Arch Mage "progression" or "hard work"?
     
  5. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    If Tolfdir is so great why didnt he go complete those quests instead of the Dragonborn? The puzzle I was referring to had nothing to do with a claw.
    [/quote]

    I guess you do zero roleplay in your playthroughs, huh? Who else would likely be going to a Mages college? A Mage? What class has it rough until they make a trip there? A mage...? Play as one rather than some Warrior you got uber-geared then go there. Ranking system doesnt matter at all. Progression can be done in other means. They went with a themepark route for Winterhold rather than traditional. So what?

    Fact is, as cheesey as the story may be in places, the college got itself in trouble and none of the others could save it. Dragonborn did, proved himself more competent than the rest of the idiots there and got the head position. If youre the kind of guy that thinks Tolfdir shouldve got it after all he did was scratch his butt and order me around I disagree.
     
  6. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...The pain of being dead...

    Sep 11, 2010
    I haven't played Fallout 4 yet and I don't know when I will or even if I will so I have no idea how it really compares to Skyrim but I think Skyrim is one of the worst games I've ever played though not as bad as Morrowind. So, yeah. Not all us would agree. Fallout 4 looks like is far more broken than Skyrim but it also looks like I'd be able to actually enjoy Fallout 4 on its own merits, whereas Skyrim drains my mood like an emotional vampire to the point that I feel nothing but loathing for it.

    So I guess it depends on what you mean by better developed.

    (As to Morrowind, I hate that game with a passion. I spent 50 or 60 hours in it and I truly enjoyed like 20 minutes. The rest of the time I spent in it shifted from "meh" to "oh my god this game is so fucking BORING AND AWFULLY DESIGNED! WHY DID I SPEND MONEY ON THIS!?")
     
  7. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    It's because it's a power fantasy in a world where no one is competent enough to even use the toilet unless the "Legendary Dragonborn of Old" aids them in their quest. Otherwise everyone stands around eating moldy bread wanting any old stranger to help them out.

    Ah yes "roleplaying" also known as limiting yourself since the game doesn't know how to do it. I was just playing the game as it was, kind of hard to play as one "class" when there's no such thing as picking a class anymore. Way too easy to get perks as it is.

    If it's a "so what" situation then why are you having this discussion right now? I went to the college because you're forced to go there for the main quest and since the game was lacking in good quests I wanted to see what it was like. Of course mages are hard to play when destruction magic was gimped since it doesn't scale properly. Before e you say mods, I shouldn't need mods to make a game good besides it took around 200 mods to make it remotely playable but still lackluster and boring.

    As for story, I know it's been a long time since I played the game but there was barely a story there. Seemed more bare bones with "kill the evil bad guy to save the college blah blah blah" stuff.

    Again the Dragonborn is only competent because Bethesda wants you to be, they WANT you to have that power fantasy of being a badass.
     
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  8. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    This is the story of 90% of all videogames ever. I dont see why Skyrim is to be the one picked apart over it solely. Wanna look at Fallout 1 with me here? You, some chosen Vault Dweller are tasked with finding a replacement Water Chip for your Vault. Some have had the task before you but they failed. After recovering that you are solely tasked with saving the world from a threat consisting of an army of Super Mutants wielding rocket launchers, plasma rifles, laser rifles and miniguns. No one is going to help you either aside from a shitty "crack assault group" organized by the Brotherhood of Steel that dies before you enter Mariposa.

    Not bashing Fallout 1 because its one of my favorite games but this trope isnt anything new by any means. Most of the JRPGs I played when I was a kid were like that. It really doesnt bother me.

    I agree you shouldnt need to use mods to make the game good. But I am doing a playthrough now without any that effect magic. The questline as a Destruction Mage at low levels isnt easy or in any way equivalent to Garvey making you the general in 20 minutes though.
     
  9. MercenarySnake

    MercenarySnake Kept you waiting huh?

    Aug 22, 2015
    You see the great thing about Fallout 1 is that you can roleplay as anyone you want, granted you still need the water chip and deal with the Master but you can fail. You can't fail anything in Skyrim, you will always prevail since Bethesda doesn't want to lock the player out of any content or want them to fail. Another brilliant thing is you can play as an idiot that knows how to repair things and stumble into the Necropolis, the water chip, and the pump. In my opinion while Fallout does that, it does it the right way. In Skyrim you will always end up going to Whiterun to the Jarl, to Bleakfalls Barrow, ect. If you don't, there's no time limit and it's as if time stops with no consequences what so ever. Either way the game plays out the same unless you want to spend the rest of your playtime LARPING, picking berries, killing most things that move and whatever else you can do. There's no alternatives to the quests that matter in Skyrim, in Fallout you can even convince the Master to suicide by showing him proof with Vree's autopsy data, very high speech, or bypass him and activate the nuclear device without having to kill him. I'm sorry if I come off like an asshole, it's okay if you like the game and enjoy it. I just don't understand how people can say it's an amazing or deep roleplaying game when it doesn't offer much in those regards. Again I apologize if I'm being hostile.
     
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  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    No shit Sherlock! That's what I was telling you before. It is a trope. One that is very often used in books, comics, movies and gaming. Why? Because it is simple. And it works. If done well. The difference is, you don't do it well, you just end up with garbage like Jupiter Ascending, if done well, it's an ultimate hit like Star Wars - A new Hope/The Empire Strikes back/Return of the Jedi.


    No clue, probably a couple of hours with fast travel. Obviously it will take more time if you're on foot/horse, but, just runing from A to B and clearing dungeons ... well. Probably one day under normal circumstances? No clue how long it took you. But I definetly could finish it pretty fast.

    It is for the most part a short quest-line as far as the number of quests goes and when you consider that most of it is just kill, kill, kill - not that Skyrim is short of kill-this-fellah/creature, fetch-me-that quests, you can probably finish them relatively fast. In Skyrim the player is like the dog for everyone, runing after every treat. After already 8 quests, you're the master chief of the college.

    But you don't need them. You could completely finish all of the quests without ever using even one single spell, except for that one time where you have to enter the college really and 1 or 2 spells while attending "lessons" - for the first and last time, because you're the chosen one, remember? Chosen ones, don't have to train in the arcane magic, they just do this chosen one stuff, and win the prize. Which is part of the whole problem.

    There is never ever a situation where the game would place some sense of role playing on you, because Bethesda literaly designed the game/quest in a way that you literaly can't fail, no matter what build or path you chose. Same reason why the COmpanions, all about honor, comrade ship and other Klingon stuff will accept you even if you're the craziest psychopath murder thief that ever existed in all of Tamriel, because Kodak the old fellah, think's you're a nice dude cuz, chosen one! And than you start to murder everyone, cuz you're a psychopath, but since the game won't let you fail, you can come back later and still finish the companion-quest-line.

    Have you heard about someone becoming the super-duper-master-leader-of-all-time of the Jedi Order without ever studying Jedi arts? No one forced you to study it, right?

    Skyrim isn't the story of the Dragonborn. Skyrim is the story of that guy who's doing the laundry for everyone because no one else ever cared about doing it before YOU showed up.

    I never played Dagerfall, but just from what I can read it had about 4 or 5 different endings. Morrowind was the game that completely abandoned that concept, for ... simplifying the whole narrative I guess. Anyway, the whay how the world, NPCs and factions treated you was a lot better in Morrowind than Skyrim or Oblivion. Infact, a lot of people and factions would become rather hostile if you showed up as the Nerevarine. But you are right, already Morrowind started the trend of dumbing down the Elder Scrolls - I guess? I can't tell it, I never played Daggerfall or anything before Morrowind. All I know, that Mororwind was not seen as the best Elder Scrolls game ever by old fans.

    But I am not going to waste more words on that matter, watch this video, it describes EVERYTHING perfectly. Seriously, it's just 32 min. of your time.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
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  11. TheVaultKeeper

    TheVaultKeeper Deliciously Demented

    127
    Apr 22, 2007
    Just for amusement I'll play the contrarian. If you have high blood pressure and strong opinions that relate to Morrowind being better than Skyrim.... maybe not the video for you.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  12. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    Wow nice tone you got there. Seems I hit a nerve daring to debate something with the likes of Mr. Holier than thou, you. :seriouslyno:

    Heres the thing though. You cant compare a questline that is somewhat long to literally doing a small quest for Garvey that takes all of 20 minutes. Dont care about Morrowind/Daggerfall comparisons. Dont care about the videos you dig up.

    Go do the questline yourself with a mage character and see how long it takes you rather than being all like "oh it will take me 3hrs topz". If youd done that in the first place rather than sitting there for an hour or two typing that up youd done and seen it aint a short questline.
     
  13. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    LOGICZ!!!

    The longer the questline the better it is.
     
  14. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    I did the quest with a Mage character, so you can stop with that line of "logic" right there.

    And you are now saying that you can't compare becoming General of the Minutemen in the first quest to becoming Arch Mage in Skyrim because the quests take different lengths of time? Surely you jest.

    The whole point is that becoming General of the Minutemen is just a progression in the same direction that becoming Arch Mage in Skyrim took - gradually Bethesda games are making us leaders of factions for less and less effort.

    You can have a 100 hour game and it can feel like absolutely nothing (Fallout 4) and you can have the same length and feel accomplished (Witcher 3). Game or quest length has NOTHING to do with this.

    Just wait, Elder Scrolls VI will force you to play as one race and you will probably be the Emperor from the start, and head of every guild within 40 minutes. That is the progression that has been happening since Skyrim.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
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  15. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Feel the burn...
     
  16. Fowler

    Fowler Sedentary

    27
    Nov 21, 2015
    Skyrim was a piece of shit.
     
  17. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Agreed. It had very little redeeming features.
     
  18. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    Naw Im not stopping anything. You say quest length has nothing to do with it yet flip flop and say TES VI will have you as Emperor and head of everything within 40 mins of playing? I see you people criticize Someguy for flipflopping, avoiding the point, or just in general twisting facts but come on now.

    First you say its a short questline completeable in only four or so quests. You clearly cared how long it was then to even mention it. Now that its been shown that the quest is longer than you let on for it to have been it suddenly does not matter anymore.
     
  19. HerveCaen

    HerveCaen First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 26, 2015
    No redeeming features yet its got decent reviews no matter where you go to look? Id beg to differ mister.
     
  20. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Which short questline? If it's the Minutemen then that is fucking short. No sugar coating, it's nothing.

    Mages guild feels quite short and is pretty short too.