Fallout 4 is not "Skyrim with guns."

[omphaloskepsis]

Just for amusement I'll play the contrarian. If you have high blood pressure and strong opinions that relate to Morrowind being better than Skyrim.... maybe not the video for you.

Not as bad as I expected it to be. The video is a response to another video which gives him some leeway. IMO the big issues of dumbing down are related to the removal of challenge, quest branches, failure and consequences. His first point is the only one that even comes close to covering the worst offenses. But it's true that all of the issues he addresses come up regularly.

Also, the author pointed out that he partially agrees with the dumbing down claims that he's arguing against.


1. Important Characters Can't Die
- Says BGS had to do this because of Radiant AI.

+ Untrue. Trivial to have a flag to only prevent death by other NPCs. Apparently doesn't understand how the games work. Also unware that many people mod the game to remove essentials. And finally, he doesn't know that many players complained about quests getting broken before Oblivion and Radiant AI, and that BGS implemented (or rather, greatly increased the number of essentials) as a response to feedback. People threw fits over slaughtering entire towns and then not being able to complete quests as a result. And thus the modern BGS philosophy was born.


2. Morrowind factions didn't react to you, just the NPCs in the factions. But they did actually react to you. But it doesn't count because you could bribe them.
+ Seriously? Whole section not worth comment. A few fair points in a heaping mound of derp.


3. Quest Markers & Bad NPC Directions:
- Author can't follow directions, doesn't like to explore sandbox open-worlds, so quest markers are good
- Also, maybe a complaint that NPC isn't a good ATM quest dispenser.
- Frustrating = Dumb
- Removal of Frustration = Smart
- NPC Quest Dispenser + Quest Arrow = Smart

+ There's some truth to what he says about bad NPC directions, but he's really just not getting the point.

3a.
- Making games more convenient is good, thus smarter. Because reasons.
- Author is hardcore because he's played a few TES games.
- Profit??


4. Dialogue - Less is More
- Less dialogue with more characterization is better. Claims that all Morrowind NPCs had the same dialogue, which is untrue, but he's right that there was a lot of shared encyclopediac text.

+ Can't argue against this one. I'd have to see the amount of unique text in each game. I suspect that Morrowind has more, possibly significantly more, but his general point is fair enough.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

Just for amusement I'll play the contrarian. If you have high blood pressure and strong opinions that relate to Morrowind being better than Skyrim.... maybe not the video for you.

Not as bad as I expected it to be.

Yeah I know, it's always interesting to hear a different take on things. Even if you don't agree with all of it.

Personally I prefer Skyrim to Morrowind... heresy right. Well, I usually load Skyrim up with about 100 mods and go out and create my own little adventure. There are lots of fun mods on the nexus to get more spells or sword skills or different armor. And I like the nordic setting with snow and all, it just appeals to me personally.

There are also rumors floating around that the next TES game will be Skyrim II.... hmmm.... not sure what to think about that though. Would have loved to go to elsweyr myself. If Bethesda could make a game in which 90% of the NPC's were walking and talking cats I would be prepared to forgive them a lot of things, because that would take balls. Which is probably why it will never happen... sigh.

 

[Khannis]

Skyrim lacking compared to previous TES games isnt the point here. Any TES fan already knows that it is lacking compared to Morrowind. Fact is lots of game franchises reach their peak and never achieve that same goodness again. Final Fantasy had its with VI and VII. TES with Morrowind. Fallout with Fallout 2. Zelda with Ocarina of Time. Chrono with.. Chrono Trigger.. yeah it jumped the shark right at the first sequel. Like it or not, that is just how it is with video games.

What is the point is saying becoming general of the minutemen in literally 10~20 mintues is equivalent to becoming Arch-mage of the Winterhold College in a questline that's going to take you 6~10hours+ to complete when you are not rushing it. This is by no means an accurate nor a fair comparison.

You make it sound like it's some natural, inevitable process. In fact, you make it sound just as the original Fallout team hadn't made an awesome game like Fallout New Vegas that is, in my opinion, a true sequel to the old Fallouts, and that Bethesda is absolutely intent on screwing up with their entries, learning nothing in the process...

 

[Dr Fallout]

Just for amusement I'll play the contrarian. If you have high blood pressure and strong opinions that relate to Morrowind being better than Skyrim.... maybe not the video for you.

Not as bad as I expected it to be.

Yeah I know, it's always interesting to hear a different take on things. Even if you don't agree with all of it.

Personally I prefer Skyrim to Morrowind... heresy right. Well, I usually load Skyrim up with about 100 mods and go out and create my own little adventure. There are lots of fun mods on the nexus to get more spells or sword skills or different armor. And I like the nordic setting with snow and all, it just appeals to me personally.

There are also rumors floating around that the next TES game will be Skyrim II.... hmmm.... not sure what to think about that though. Would have loved to go to elsweyr myself. If Bethesda could make a game in which 90% of the NPC's were walking and talking cats I would be prepared to forgive them a lot of things, because that would take balls. Which is probably why it will never happen... sigh.

I can understand that. The only thing I really liked about Morrowind was the writing and world.

 

[Walpknut]

Bthesda games seem to get more and more lazy and blatant with their focus on instant gratification. At least Skyrim made you do 4 quests to become the leader of a Faction, Fallout 4 makes you the leader of 2 factions extremely quickly, not to offer the player new interactions or role playing posibilities but to tell them "You are a Big Dick playa! You leader, you!" while still having you follow quest markers forever.

And well, Skyrim at least was flimsy and shallow in a very open way, Fallout 4 is shallow while also locking removing any flexibility. Dialogue is now 4 dialogue choices period, while in Skyrim you could at least mod the lsit to have a bunch of options, you didn't have to worry about voiced protagonists, You weren't on a constant loop of picking up every bit of junk ever, there were more than 4 settlements too..... With Fallout 4 even gameplay mods seem limited... Perks are a rigid 7*10 grid period, good luck managing to mod new perks in without them having to be all strictly Replacement perks or just having to completely mod out the Perk chart altogether (which wouldn't be a huge loss).

 

[omphaloskepsis]

Personally I prefer Skyrim to Morrowind... heresy right. *SNIP* If Bethesda could make a game in which 90% of the NPC's were walking and talking cats I would be prepared to forgive them a lot of things, because that would take balls. Which is probably why it will never happen... sigh.

I love Morrowind but I actually had a really good time--and put in a ridiculous amount of hours--with Skyrim. I was pissed at first because it wasn't the game I hoped for but then I accepted that I could enjoy it for what it was.

I personally wouldn't mind a Skyrim 2, though I'd rather see a new area of Tamriel. Elsweyr or Black Marsh would be fantastic, as long as they didn't dilute it (Cyrodiil), but I think you're right and they wouldn't be willing to risk an alien environment.

So here's my question: after seeing Fallout 4, is there anything you'd be worried about in future BGS games?

 

[Swipetotheside]

Jeez the dude really stirred up the Hive in this thread, I need more popcorn :p

 

[zegh8578]

Jeez the dude really stirred up the Hive in this thread, I need more popcorn :p

Is it capitalized now?

Anyway, enjoy your popcorn! Imagine if everyone just dropped all their critical sense, opened their mouth wide, and laughed heartily at the non-stop gun-fun that is FO4 - who would incite you to munch that popcorn? Where would the drama be?

By the way, do you know how to throw and catch popcorns? It's one of these deceptively easy things, and the trick is to toss it high up in the air. Because of their low mass, popcorns will fall relatively slowly, allowing you to catch them with ease, making you look like a popcorn-pro!

 

[Crni Vuk]

Just for amusement I'll play the contrarian. If you have high blood pressure and strong opinions that relate to Morrowind being better than Skyrim.... maybe not the video for you.

Not as bad as I expected it to be.

Yeah I know, it's always interesting to hear a different take on things. Even if you don't agree with all of it.

Personally I prefer Skyrim to Morrowind... heresy right. Well, I usually load Skyrim up with about 100 mods and go out and create my own little adventure. There are lots of fun mods on the nexus to get more spells or sword skills or different armor. And I like the nordic setting with snow and all, it just appeals to me personally.

There are also rumors floating around that the next TES game will be Skyrim II.... hmmm.... not sure what to think about that though. Would have loved to go to elsweyr myself. If Bethesda could make a game in which 90% of the NPC's were walking and talking cats I would be prepared to forgive them a lot of things, because that would take balls. Which is probably why it will never happen... sigh.

That's absolutely fine. Preferences are never a problem. Some also enjoy Fallout 4 over Fallout 3 or the previous games. And some people swear that Mc Donalds is the best restaurant in the world, and adore fast food.

The point is the transition though. No one can claim that quest markers and immortal NPCs didn't changed the gameplay.

The other issue is, you mention mods. Why are mods even relevant? Should a game not allow you to do exactly what you say without mods? Creating your own little adventure? A game should be able to stand on it's own merrits. I don't hate Skyrim. I just find it always a bit strange, when ever people speak very highly about Skyrim, mods are quite often one of the points people bring up. Without the intention to attack you. I am just saying. A game should be capable to stand on it's own, even without mods. I sometimes I think, not even half of the people that enjoy Skyrim would probably even touch it after a couple of days/weeks without mods. Even the people that actually like it, because no matter what quality Skyrim has, at the end of the day, the game exactly lacks what keeps people actually playing. Depth.

..........

Wow nice tone you got there. Seems I hit a nerve daring to debate something with the likes of Mr. Holier than thou, you.

If it makes you happy. Here, you're right! Skyrim probably IS better than Fallout 4. But that really doesn't have to say much ... the point still stands. The mage-quest line in Skyrim, is lackluster.

Heres the thing though. You cant compare a questline that is somewhat long to literally doing a small quest for Garvey that takes all of 20 minutes. Dont care about Morrowind/Daggerfall comparisons. Dont care about the videos you dig up.

Long for YOU(!), while at least 3-4 people in here told you, it's not. Maybe it's all opinion? What do I know. If the quests in Skyrim would be at least well writen, maybe that point would not be even really important. And I am not surprised that the video isn't interesting for you.

Go do the questline yourself with a mage character and see how long it takes you rather than being all like "oh it will take me 3hrs topz". If youd done that in the first place rather than sitting there for an hour or two typing that up youd done and seen it aint a short questline.

Alright ... might take you more time as a mage. Granted. Because I personaly never played the quest line as mage but always as pure fighter. And it was a fucking breeze. But that's artificial longevity and not even the point. You could as well decide to play the mage quest line always encumbered, without fast travel, and it will take you even longer! The questline for it self contains neither a real challange, nor is it really very long if you're playing the game in a normal fasion, where the choice of skills is up to you. Your point would have maybe some value in my opinion, if the only way to play the quest, actually was as a mage. Like in Morrowind, where you actually had skill requirements to move up in ranks.

 

[Mr Fish]

Skyrim was a piece of shit.

Agreed. It had very little redeeming features.

No redeeming features yet its got decent reviews no matter where you go to look? Id beg to differ mister.

Game reviewers are a joke and has been for I don't know how long. Most of the time it seems like they are on the hype-wagon along with everyone else and then can't think critically of a game. Just look at the amount of times the critical score is way higher than the user score. Critics are more lenient towards big titles than they are smaller titles. But hell, it doesn't mean that user reviews are necessarily all that much better, with all the "this game sux" and "this game rox".

Skyrim doesn't have any redeeming features. If you want story then it is a shitty game. If you want intriguing characters then it is a shitty game. If you want a good RPG experience then it is a shitty game. If you want to just kill shit (hack n slash) then it is a shitty game. If you want to explore an interesting world then it is a shitty game. It does absolutely nothing well, and it most certainly doesn't do anything 'better' than other titles that are out there. Skyrim is basically a game for those that love Oblivion/Fallout 3 that crave more and so they have to settle for Skyrim. That's all it is.

Now if you want to put buckets on people's heads and download nude mods that give you big ol kitty tiddies then I dunno what other game could compare. So I guess it is a good game for dicking around in? Problem with that is that it is the mods that make the game bearable and mods are not a justified excuse for the poor quality of the actual game.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

I did the quest with a Mage character, so you can stop with that line of "logic" right there.

And you are now saying that you can't compare becoming General of the Minutemen in the first quest to becoming Arch Mage in Skyrim because the quests take different lengths of time? Surely you jest.

The whole point is that becoming General of the Minutemen is just a progression in the same direction that becoming Arch Mage in Skyrim took - gradually Bethesda games are making us leaders of factions for less and less effort.

You can have a 100 hour game and it can feel like absolutely nothing (Fallout 4) and you can have the same length and feel accomplished (Witcher 3). Game or quest length has NOTHING to do with this.

Just wait, Elder Scrolls VI will force you to play as one race and you will probably be the Emperor from the start, and head of every guild within 40 minutes. That is the progression that has been happening since Skyrim.

Naw Im not stopping anything. You say quest length has nothing to do with it yet flip flop and say TES VI will have you as Emperor and head of everything within 40 mins of playing? I see you people criticize Someguy for flipflopping, avoiding the point, or just in general twisting facts but come on now.

First you say its a short questline completeable in only four or so quests. You clearly cared how long it was then to even mention it. Now that its been shown that the quest is longer than you let on for it to have been it suddenly does not matter anymore.

Length has nothing to do with it. That Mages Guild questline in Skyrim like a lot of the other quests in that game had terrible writing, development, progression, and execution. I felt more accomplished in 10 minutes of Mass Effect 3 than I did with that 6-10 hours of Skyrim. Your sole argument is that because it was 6-10 hours it is not comparable to the 10 minutes it took to make me General of the Minutemen. If sheer number of hours is your categorization of good quests and character progression then you are the exact target demographic for Bethesda games.

The writing in both Skyrim and Fallout 4 is not just sub-par it is insulting to the intelligence of the player and even downright patronizing. In Elder Scrolls VI they will probably take this one step further and just do away with any sort of verisimilitude by making you head of the Mages Guild simply by successfully opening the front door to the Guild.

Skyrim may have gotten good reviews but Fallout 4 shows that people are tired of this shallow schtik they keep regurgitating as "deep RPGs."

 

[khain]

The writing in both Skyrim and Fallout 4 is not just sub-par it is insulting to the intelligence of the player and even downright patronizing. In Elder Scrolls Vi they will probably take this one step further and just do away with any sort of verisimilitude by making you head of the Mages Guild simply by successfully opening the front door to the Guild.

Gross exaggeration.

They will ask you, at least, and you will have the following 4 choices of dialogue:

1. Yes
2. I don't think I'm right for this, but yes.
3. HATE MAGES
4. I guess, yes.

 

[Earth]

Why does the game assume that I would want to be Arch Mage? As far as I can tell there are next to no advantages to the position in Skyrim.

Maybe I'm Harry Potter who just wants to go to Wizard School and get an education. I haven't played Skyrim in years but I just remember having one lesson on magic shields or something and then being sent to kill even more zombies in a cave (because even the fucking bards consider killing zombies in a cave important to your bard training).

Then a big dumb story started happening about a magic item or something and I'm just here saying, "can I just go to classes please?"

 

[Spacemunkey]

Skyrim's mages questline was an after thought at best. I've been playing a Breton mage since Morrowind and the decline in not only quality but quantity is mind boggling. I realize collecting mushrooms for Ajira isn't glamorous or super exciting, but it felt like something an associate in a guild would be asked to do, oblivion as well had tasks that felt like what a new member would be asked to do. Then there is Skyrim that pushes this chosen one power fantasy that immediately makes me roll my eyes.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

There are also rumors floating around that the next TES game will be Skyrim II

I thought people were just calling it "Skyrim 2" as a sort of troll to emphasize the fact that many people playing Skyrim had no idea there were other Elder Scrolls games, in the same way people ask "There was a Fallout 1 and 2?!"

Either way I probably won't even pay any attention to the next Elder Scrolls games after the utter lack of effort that was Fallout 4.

 

[khain]

Same here. As I said in a previous post, I actually managed to enjoy Skyrim despite the dumbing down, mainly because I had stopped expecting anything else, unlike the Fallout franchise.

But there's a limit. The game would have to be spectacularly good in its combat mechanics etc in order to make me forget that it's got nothing to do with an RPG.

I mean, first person Diablo doesn't necessarily sound like a horrible concept, but if every game is like that...

 

[Khannis]

The writing in both Skyrim and Fallout 4 is not just sub-par it is insulting to the intelligence of the player and even downright patronizing. In Elder Scrolls Vi they will probably take this one step further and just do away with any sort of verisimilitude by making you head of the Mages Guild simply by successfully opening the front door to the Guild.

Gross exaggeration.

They will ask you, at least, and you will have the following 4 choices of dialogue:

1. Yes
2. I don't think I'm right for this, but yes.
3. HATE MAGES
4. I guess, yes.

And based on the pattern of certain dialogues in FO4, the 3rd option may be wishful thinking...

 

[Trash of the Den]

Well I think we all agree that Skyrim was a 10x better developed game then Fallout 4.

I haven't played Fallout 4 yet and I don't know when I will or even if I will so I have no idea how it really compares to Skyrim but I think Skyrim is one of the worst games I've ever played though not as bad as Morrowind. So, yeah. Not all us would agree. Fallout 4 looks like is far more broken than Skyrim but it also looks like I'd be able to actually enjoy Fallout 4 on its own merits, whereas Skyrim drains my mood like an emotional vampire to the point that I feel nothing but loathing for it.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by better developed.

(As to Morrowind, I hate that game with a passion. I spent 50 or 60 hours in it and I truly enjoyed like 20 minutes. The rest of the time I spent in it shifted from "meh" to "oh my god this game is so fucking BORING AND AWFULLY DESIGNED! WHY DID I SPEND MONEY ON THIS!?")

Good points there my friend. I think you misinterpreted what I meant by design though. Which is no fault of your own. I don't know if you ever heard of Endless Ages of Fallen Earth? I used to work for Avaria Corporation in my early 20's with Aaron Boucher for Endless Ages and Icarus Studios with Lee Hammock for Fallen Earth, when I was in my mid 20's as a character modeler, artist, and designed some of the environments within those games. I no longer work in that field anymore as I'm now developing my own Post Apocalyptic/Cyber Punk RPG for PC, which will be released in 2019.

I wasn't really talking about how enjoyable the game was for you or how fun it was. You're completely right I guess it does depend on what people see as better developed (Maybe I should of worded it better. Sorry I'm getting old haha) I was talking about the design. Fallout 4's design and design decisions made don't necessarily follow what the fallout franchise was all about. While I didn't find Skyrim enjoyable either (like you experienced) and found Morrowind boring like you did, (even though I can still see why people would like Morrowind more.) Skyrim was much much better designed then Fallout 4 ever was, because it still followed the Elder Scrolls Formula and base design. While some mechanics were certainly dumbed down there was still an Elder Scrolls game there.

As for Fallout 4. As a designer or someone who pays attention to detail, especially with the design side of things. A lot of the design (I Noticed) doesn't follow the Fallout Franchise, The Formula, The Lore, Factions, or story at all. Sure it has Fallout on it. It has the same Raiders and Post Apocalyptic world (Which was poorly designed as well IMO. Geez I'm starting to sound like a real negative nancy here. I hope I'm not depressing anyone who had read this far. haha) But If you play through Fallout 4 you can see shortcuts the developers took so they didn't have to spend more time to spend on working with the usual formula and design each of the games usually follow. It's probably because of many reasons. And one that is a big one for me that comes into my mind, is due to the fact they were trying to get the game out the door as fast as possible too cash in one what was done, because they already knew people would buy it regardless. Some Fans simply do not like Fo4 not because it's "New" but because it does not follow the design and formula of Fallout. They were trying to streamline the game even more to capitalize on the name like every other franchise does in order to bring in a new generation of gamers. There is also a sense that the team who worked on Fallout 4 really didn't know much of the lore, or formula of the previous games at all.

But I'm sure all these things could certainly be argued because I never worked on Fo4 and I don't know any of the current Bethesda team. I like to look at peoples work, not what is said in developer PR. See It shows with the work done on fo4 that the attention to detail was very very minimal. Which brings me again to what I was saying about trying to rush the game out the door. I've been reading what a lot of young gamers on various websites have been saying. They say the game was in development for 6 years but don't know if thats conjecture or an actual fact because I have a hard time believing that since when I worked with the lovely team on Fallen Earth for 3 1/2 years, we had a lot more content done in the first 2 years then Bethesda has with Fo4. We also had time to pay attention to design to keep it were we wanted from the original design that was planned from the start. It doesn't make sense it was developed for 6 years unless there was some serious downtime with planning.

That's what I was talking about my friend.

Much love from Canada!
Cheers,
-Trash

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Want to be a silver tongued diplomat? That'd grant you XP.

What the...? Now I'm asking myself if I was living in a lie.
Isnt' a skyrim game, when you go around, smash LMB and clear dungeon after dungeon without using brain at all?

 

[MercenarySnake]

1. Mages?
2. Sarcastic
3. HATE MAGES
4. Of course

Fixed that for ya.