First details on Dead Money, New Vegas' first DLC

Okay, I forgot the statue in Shady Sands/NCR, it has been a while since I played Fallout 2, I don't go through it each month.

In fact, what's wrong with low tech pagan societies?

Like somebody else said, they can be easily intimidated or manipulated by people with more knowledge.
As an educated person I do not need to tell you how more advanced cultures took use of such situations to use such people for their own purposes.

Now I know that lack of technology does not always mean lack of knowledge, but at the rate knowledge is lost you honestly need to record knowledge in either books or digital records, as stories and songs devolve into myths as they are passed on to new generations.

Where one generation knew what an airplane was, several generations from that talk about some giant bird which could carry people to other lands.


With knowledge also came enlightenment, while some societies already recognized the equality between men and women, its because of our greater understanding that a larger group of us believes that both genders should be treated equal.
Sure, it still requires a lot of work but the basis is there.

Also, the 'divine right of kings' anyone?

Okay, that goes back to 'people with more knowledge' and not so much technology, but still something we got rid off.

And of course slavery, the whole 'self supporting community' goes only so far until some members come up with the idea that it would be nice if someone else did the work and you could take what they produce and use them as you see fit, seeing them as property rather than other human beings.

Even an enlightened low tech society can not escape that sooner or later some of their members start to consider it.
And otherwise there is always an outside force who is already practicing it and perhaps more successful through it.

While industrialization has produced its own 'slavery', its because of greater understanding that we recognize that as a 'bad' or 'wrong' thing, despite that some corporations see it differently.


The Dweller would leverage his earlier exploits that helped this particular trader. Plus, the legendary Brotherhood armour also calls for respect and invites trust.

Most of the people outside the BOS saw them as xenophobic weirdos, remember?
And instead of inviting trust and respect it might also invite the opposite, intimidation and fear.

Who says that the man in the armor that enhances his strength and gives him protection from whatever I can throw at him decide not to get rid of the 'middle man' and help himself to what he wants?

While I could understand that some of the VD's dealings such as eliminating the Khans (for example) would give him a reputation, positive or negative (both probably), that only carries so far.
Giving the VD some bullets or stimpacks is one thing, just handing him a working generator or an auto doc is another.
 
KillerBee256 said:
The only down side is if someone else DOES remeber how to say, how to use guns and or energy weapons and desides to bully you in to say becoming there serfs/slaves.

That's why Arroyo was set up in such a remote area - the profit margin would be very slim.

Of course, the Dweller couldn't foresee that there's something like the Enclave and that it will want to kidnap his people as research stock.

Like somebody else said, they can be easily intimidated or manipulated by people with more knowledge.
As an educated person I do not need to tell you how more advanced cultures took use of such situations to use such people for their own purposes.

Yes, they did. Do remember, however, that the nuclear war provided an unique situation, in which a technologically advanced humanity was sent back straight into the stone age. There are far less people alive, thus any advanced post-War society would have limited means of extending their influence.

Now I know that lack of technology does not always mean lack of knowledge, but at the rate knowledge is lost you honestly need to record knowledge in either books or digital records, as stories and songs devolve into myths as they are passed on to new generations.

Where one generation knew what an airplane was, several generations from that talk about some giant bird which could carry people to other lands.

How is knowing what an airplane is useful in an agrarian community? How does it help them survive? That's useless knowledge and useless knowledge does atrophy.

With knowledge also came enlightenment, while some societies already recognized the equality between men and women, its because of our greater understanding that a larger group of us believes that both genders should be treated equal.
Sure, it still requires a lot of work but the basis is there.

Uh-huh. It wasn't any greater understanding, it was a change in mentality and morality. It isn't tied to technological progress either, otherwise it would've happened a lot earlier than the 19th/20th century. Hell, the USA still has capital punishment in some states. If refinement was tied to technology, they'd be the most progressive and socially advanced country in the world.

Also, the 'divine right of kings' anyone?

In a small community where everyone is accountable?

nigga-please.jpg


Okay, that goes back to 'people with more knowledge' and not so much technology, but still something we got rid off.[/guote]

Putin, Kim etc. don't exist then, eh?

And of course slavery, the whole 'self supporting community' goes only so far until some members come up with the idea that it would be nice if someone else did the work and you could take what they produce and use them as you see fit, seeing them as property rather than other human beings.

Uh, how would they come to that conclusion? In a small community where everyone's accountable there'd be no need for slaves as there is no large amount of work that would necessitate slaves. For small communities they're more trouble than they're worth, as the owner has to provide food, clothing and shelter for the slave at his own expense. It's simply cheaper and more effective to cooperate with your neighbour than maintain a slave just because you can.

Even an enlightened low tech society can not escape that sooner or later some of their members start to consider it.

Bullshit.

And otherwise there is always an outside force who is already practicing it and perhaps more successful through it.

While industrialization has produced its own 'slavery', its because of greater understanding that we recognize that as a 'bad' or 'wrong' thing, despite that some corporations see it differently.

Sorry, what greater understanding? You mean the greater understanding that led to enslaving Africans to feed the American economy in the 19th century, when eg. the French Declaration of Rights was created? When large scale industrialization began?

Most of the people outside the BOS saw them as xenophobic weirdos, remember?
And instead of inviting trust and respect it might also invite the opposite, intimidation and fear.

He'd still sell you the desired supplies and not make a fuss. Few people are stupid enough to piss off a guy in a walking tank,

Who says that the man in the armor that enhances his strength and gives him protection from whatever I can throw at him decide not to get rid of the 'middle man' and help himself to what he wants?

Where's your "greater understanding" of technology-using people in this case? You can't cherry pick situations in which it applies and try to substantiate your argument through that.

While I could understand that some of the VD's dealings such as eliminating the Khans (for example) would give him a reputation, positive or negative (both probably), that only carries so far.
Giving the VD some bullets or stimpacks is one thing, just handing him a working generator or an auto doc is another.

You don't seem to grasp just how strong an influence the vault dweller had on the wastes.
 
Rejecting advanced technology is plausible, but becoming shamanistic tribals within one generation is not.
 
But where did the gun come from? It would in theory create a chain-reaction of curiosity, especially within a tribe that knows nothing like it.
 
Honestly Tagaziel, if you think agrarian micro communities would be best, feel free to join them.

I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.
 
They also had plastic explosives.

The last time I saw a pro-primitive society was the "Simple Town" concept in Canticle for Leibowitz. Which lead to death, ignorance and famine.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

The same high tech society also created extermination camps, nuclear bombs, biological weapons and generally caused a lot more damage than any agrarian micro-community.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
Honestly Tagaziel, if you think agrarian micro communities would be best, feel free to join them.

I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

like nuclear Armageddon?
 
Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
The Dutch Ghost said:
Honestly Tagaziel, if you think agrarian micro communities would be best, feel free to join them.

I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

like nuclear Armageddon?

I didn't know nuclear armageddon was positive and had happened.
 
Tagaziel said:
The Dutch Ghost said:
I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

The same high tech society also created extermination camps, nuclear bombs, biological weapons and generally caused a lot more damage than any agrarian micro-community.
I wouldn't use the standing definition of an agrarian society in the context of a post-apocalypse, especially in the near-arid environment of post-apoc California.
 
Alphadrop said:
Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
The Dutch Ghost said:
Honestly Tagaziel, if you think agrarian micro communities would be best, feel free to join them.

I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

like nuclear Armageddon?

I didn't know nuclear armageddon was positive and had happened.

I figured this is in the context of Fallout and I was being sarcastic.
 
Tagaziel said:
The Dutch Ghost said:
I'll stick with things like electricity, medical technology and the positive things a high tech society produced.

The same high tech society also created extermination camps, nuclear bombs, biological weapons and generally caused a lot more damage than any agrarian micro-community.

Look it is not a personal attack on your beliefs, I like you to much for that, but I honestly find the whole 'simpler life is better' ideology ridiculous.

If we are going to look at the bad side of low tech or high tech societies then both sides will have their problems.
But I feel there is more hope in a high tech society than in a society that depends on stagnation of progress.

To live only to exist, never wondering if there is more.
That doesn't sound ideal to me.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
To live only to exist, never wondering if there is more.
That doesn't sound ideal to me.

Not only this, it's also completely against the human nature of pushing the limits of "science", explore their surroundings etc.

This whole "I live in arroyo and seal myself from the other world" may work for one generation, but sooner or later people there will spread out.
 
not necesseraliy there are enough comunities out there like the mormons for example which choose for them self for what ever reasons to stay a rather more isolated and encapsuled community. And the same can be said about other people which voluntarily decided to life the way they do.

Why should the same not count for arroyo ? Even for serveral generations. With a certain size this might be different for sure. But we are not talking here about a nation or anything with several thousand of members. I am sure that even in a settlement like arroyo you had from time to time individuals which moved out just for the sake of it or cause they wanted to satisfy their coriosity. The Elder of the vilage knew the name of Vic in Kalath afterall and it is not far away to assume that there has been always some sproradic trading.

But that in my eyes just shows that they had the general vision or idea to enjoy they life as how they have choosen it more as a form of "spirit" then a "dogmatic principle" ~ unlike the Brotherhood of Steel for example which are following their vision like a dogma that to question alone is heretic.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
Look it is not a personal attack on your beliefs, I like you to much for that, but I honestly find the whole 'simpler life is better' ideology ridiculous.

Why? Because some people have no desire to indulge in progress for progress' sake?

If we are going to look at the bad side of low tech or high tech societies then both sides will have their problems.
But I feel there is more hope in a high tech society than in a society that depends on stagnation of progress.

Global warming begs to differ.

To live only to exist, never wondering if there is more.
That doesn't sound ideal to me.

Simple life doesn't equal lack of curiosity. It's simply progress at a slower, friendlier pace.
 
Tagaziel said:
Why? Because some people have no desire to indulge in progress for progress' sake?
That is extremly subjective anyway! I mean who is saying progress is alone made by "technology" ? There is a spiritual side to it as well.

I think we should not always measure a situation just with our look on the things particularly since we or most of us here I guess have grown up in a society ruled literaly in everything by technology giving us the feeling its the alpha and omega.
 
Simple life doesn't equal lack of curiosity. It's simply progress at a slower, friendlier pace.

But when placed in a post-advanced society, with many of the advances of pre-war society utilized, adapted, and even replicated (NCR), choosing not to utilize these resources is counteractive to the survivability of the society, pushing towards illogical thinking, despite personal technophobic concerns.
 
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