Ilosar said:
I don't know much about Baldur's Gate combat system, but I like the one in Dragon Age: Origins. It's quite good, aside from the occasional bugs, but it is still good.
General Gaming Megathread: What are you playing?
- Thread starter The Commissar
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I don't know much about Baldur's Gate combat system, but I like the one in Dragon Age: Origins. It's quite good, aside from the occasional bugs, but it is still good.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
I find it's actually improved in the sequel. It has more meaningful talents, so you are no longer piegeon-holded in a role by the weapon you choose, sword and board warriors can act as damage dealers with the right build for example), better stats (Cunning and Dexterity are now worth a damn for Warriors) and companions have unique skill trees. That said, the encounter design itself is atrocious (as Yahtzee puts it, entire groups of murderers literally drop from the sky and fight to the last for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and that's just the tip of the iceberg), so in the end Origins combat is still much better.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
Unless you play on the console, where you're forced into real time combat all the time for no goddamned reason, and the AI system forces you to waste feats on upgrades for it. I've seen the proper version of it, where you can pause and issues orders for dudes, and there's no reason for that not to be in the console port especially considering KOTOR had a similar system and was totally awesome.
Though it really falls flat in many ways if you ask me.Atomkilla said:
Not that their system is really "bad" but the fights are in my eyes really tedious and boring. At some point it is always the same.
This becomes particularly visible in combat with boss enemies which can take a really long (and boring ...) time to finish not because it is difficult but because someone decided to give those enemies huge Health Points.
Now I do not say other games do a perfect combat. But I always prefer the DnD combat from Baldur's Gate to Dragon Turd. Why ? Well the fights have been really hard if you didn't knew what to do. But it was not "long". The enemies have been difficult for other reasons. Particularly magic creatures like Dragons, Liches and Wizards. They never had much HP but certain immunities. I mean if you knew how you could slay dragons in less then 30 sec. Though to achieve that was a game on it self!
In dragon age ... hack, hack, do some critical action, hack hack, potion, hack hack ... still not dead yet ? ... meh ... yeah just like all the million action games before. Boss fights are just like the usual crap except they have 100 times more HP then the usual enemies.
Mostly agree with Crni on that point. Moreover, for those who complain about BG being to easy (it is) there are always mods (Tactics, improved anvil) which make it more difficult in a tactical way, not retarded humongous HP/damage. Replaying BGT with a few of those as we speack, solo, highest difficulty. Man, it's fun 
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Erm, not sure about that Crni. I do agree some Origins fights (and DA2 ones are even worse) can drag on, but there's no instant-win tactics save for one or two broken mage builds.
Take an example, Kangaxx, in his demi-lich form (even at hardest difficulty his lich form is too easy to mention). He takes very little damage from weapons, 3 or 4 even from Minsc with the Crom Faer. He also casts his irrestible Imprisonment willy-nilly; he is probably impossible if you don't know exactly what to do or are really lucky. Myself, I happened to have the Mace of Distruption in hand. I had Imoen cast Breach, and 1 second later he was dead because of the effect. I found that cheap, so I tried without the mace. Nope, whetever I did didn't work (the Slayer form and Minsk's Berserk are apparently immune to Imprisonment, but it still somehow worked?), he simply doesn't go down fast enough not to imprison the PC. I knew afterwards there are other tactics you can use (Berserker using his ability, scroll of magic immunity) but all seem like such cheap ways to beat such a cheap boss. It test your nerdy DnD knowledge far more than it tests your tactical skill, or your ability to adapt or the correctness of your build.
The dragon fights are much better (even if a simple Protection from fear erases 50% of the difficulty) but I find that this system of know-it-all-or-die doesn't really sit well with me. Also, having exhausted your Breach spells in the middle of a mage fight is extremely tedious and adds a fake difficulty, at the very least the mana system is so much better than memorization and sitting 8 hours at a time in dank dungeons in plain sight of a group of ghosts.
And I am reading a Let's Play of the game with Tactics installed, and all the mod seemingly does is pile up more enemies in key encounters and buff up dragons and liches, I could be wrong of course. I will still probably get it for my eventual second playthrough. I am not enough of a masochist to try a solo run however, maybe a 4 party members run, but the party is half the fun in this game.
Take an example, Kangaxx, in his demi-lich form (even at hardest difficulty his lich form is too easy to mention). He takes very little damage from weapons, 3 or 4 even from Minsc with the Crom Faer. He also casts his irrestible Imprisonment willy-nilly; he is probably impossible if you don't know exactly what to do or are really lucky. Myself, I happened to have the Mace of Distruption in hand. I had Imoen cast Breach, and 1 second later he was dead because of the effect. I found that cheap, so I tried without the mace. Nope, whetever I did didn't work (the Slayer form and Minsk's Berserk are apparently immune to Imprisonment, but it still somehow worked?), he simply doesn't go down fast enough not to imprison the PC. I knew afterwards there are other tactics you can use (Berserker using his ability, scroll of magic immunity) but all seem like such cheap ways to beat such a cheap boss. It test your nerdy DnD knowledge far more than it tests your tactical skill, or your ability to adapt or the correctness of your build.
The dragon fights are much better (even if a simple Protection from fear erases 50% of the difficulty) but I find that this system of know-it-all-or-die doesn't really sit well with me. Also, having exhausted your Breach spells in the middle of a mage fight is extremely tedious and adds a fake difficulty, at the very least the mana system is so much better than memorization and sitting 8 hours at a time in dank dungeons in plain sight of a group of ghosts.
And I am reading a Let's Play of the game with Tactics installed, and all the mod seemingly does is pile up more enemies in key encounters and buff up dragons and liches, I could be wrong of course. I will still probably get it for my eventual second playthrough. I am not enough of a masochist to try a solo run however, maybe a 4 party members run, but the party is half the fun in this game.
Ilosar said:
It does. Well, DnD in general gets ridiculous at very high levels, it's just how it is. I know of no game that handled epic levels properly. That said, I never found it un-fun, and it's kind of nice to finally feel your character to be powerful after all the time spent crawling in fear.
DA:O isn't even the proper comparison, since IIRC, the game doesn't even scratch what would be comparable to "epic levels". And yet, its bigger fights fail even harder, like running in circles from the Ogre, or whacking at the dragon for 30 minutes without losing a single character.
If BG is too easy for you, up the difficulty and/or try to play as a Bard
(boy, that was hell).Two tanks and a healer win any "difficult" single encounter. Change healer for mage for crowds. They're not "instant win", they're "painfully slow guaranteed win", not sure that's any better.
Also, I'll laugh if you say you think DA:O's Kangaxx was any better than BG2's
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Playing FF8 BTW. Still a great game, but damn it i feel like I'm spending more time on card games than on actual game, cause the upgrade system is so horrible.
The guy from DA:O at least had better looks. But the skull in BG2 did not dodge the mace, while a 2 meters of pure steel somehow dodged my rogues daggers...well Bioware is classical on that point, computers can cheat too if they have uber names. God I cursed the name of that Maze spell Kangaxx used to throw around...
I'm nearing the end of Cleat Sky, just have to headshot Stre....oh shit....
!spoilers!
Anyway I intend to play Icewind Dale, however weird it sounds I never played it...not even once. I guess it's time to make some amends.
I'm nearing the end of Cleat Sky, just have to headshot Stre....oh shit....
!spoilers!
Anyway I intend to play Icewind Dale, however weird it sounds I never played it...not even once. I guess it's time to make some amends.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Icewind Dale is a really good game if you like some fun with the D&D system and can stomach stupid RTwP combat systems. I've found the game much more enjoying than the Baldurs Gate abominations.
SmartCheetah
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Icewind Dale, maybe little too fight-orientish, but hell - these are totally atmospheric games! Music, landscapes - they are really well done. I really liked 'em.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Yeah, that's true. Graphical and soundwise they are the best games the Infinity Engine ever spawned.
I am not saying that. Well not what I mean actually but to be more specific.Ilosar said:
I played a warrior and mage in Dragon Age (finished it the first time with the warrior got bored with the mage later in the game ...).
Problem is. Dragon Age contains TO much combat passages which are TO long. It has difficult moments. But not because those moments require tactics. But because you get swarmed by endless mobs or enemies which have felt 1000000 Health Points (dark spawn brod mother anyone ... )
As said. I dont really see Baldurs Gate combat as the epidome of RPGs. But from the side of tactical game play. It really made me think particularly the first times I played the game. It is interesting to say that many of the really hard enemies you encounter don't have much HP. The wizards ? 1 or 2 blows by your warrior and they are out. Irenicus the main villain ? He has not much either. The issue is to actually get so far that you CAN damage them. The game also contains those "strong" bosses which act like tanks, with lots of HP and hard blows. Iron Golems would come to my mind. Thats is what I mean though. It has a lot of diversty. Today with some "RPGs" difficulty seems to be achieved not by using different tactics or behaviour but simply "more" HP for the enemy where Wizards have the same health pool or "protection" like some warriors and such - generaly speaking.
In Dragon age difficult or not I always feel like doing the same over and over and over again. The Endgame did not feelt different compared to how my Character played at level 5 ...
In BG2 I had to think and prepare a bit more. Considering who my enemies are. Wizards, Vampires, Undead, Dragons, Illithids etc. Sure a "power build" can kill them all alone ( I had a warrior-mage-hybrid character once), but that is not the target of the game. Try playing it as Bard or Cleric. And have fun!
I'm not surprised; somehow the game is less talked about than one would expect; it's beautiful and fun, but bear in mind that it's nor really an RPG - it's a true hack'n'slash fest. I think it's much better than IWD2 (heck, it even looks better, surprisingly), even though it doesn't even try to introduce any role-playing elements to the game.
Also, I suggest you leave the HoW expansion to the characters you export from the main campaign, even though the game gives you a chance to play the expansion during the main campaign: some of the special items you get at the end of the main campaign can be further improved in HoW. And of course, don't miss out on the Trials - fun stuff.
Damn, I still curse the day I tried to play BG2 as a bard ("Blade" I think the sub-class was called?). Man, the guy never became useful.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Ausdoerrt said:
Icewind Dale is better than ... Icewind Dale?
Much has been said since my previous post, but I just want to add something to it.
About Dragon Age: Origins combat system, I don't think it's really that tedious, though it can be at moments. I think the combat system is quite good, it is flexible enough, and can be challenging.
Now, about the ''challenging'' part. The problem is (as someone said before) in too many unnecessary, ''filler'' enemies, and I completely agree. They are the problem in the combat, not the combat system. However, too many mobs drags the combat system with it into the grave, so it's a certain failure.
But, some enemies can be challenging, boss included, without having massive HP. True, they have, but it's not really a problem with some enemies. Crni mentioned the broodmother - I find that combat more tactical than problematical because of "big health". Also, it is an fairly easy, and fast one, if you ask me - a proper character build, with a proper coatings/salves/arrows/charms in use, it can be fairly easy. So is the Archdemon at the end.
They may (not) be much of a challenge, but I personally don't really blame HP for that. No combat took me more than 5 minutes to complete, which is okay by my standards.
As for D&D combat systems, I don't know much about them - in computer games, that is. I haven't played many D&D computer games (I play it old school, pen & paper), but if their combat system is same (or similar) in most their games, than I have experience with it (on long-term, I have only played Torment of all DnD cRPG).
About Dragon Age: Origins combat system, I don't think it's really that tedious, though it can be at moments. I think the combat system is quite good, it is flexible enough, and can be challenging.
Now, about the ''challenging'' part. The problem is (as someone said before) in too many unnecessary, ''filler'' enemies, and I completely agree. They are the problem in the combat, not the combat system. However, too many mobs drags the combat system with it into the grave, so it's a certain failure.
But, some enemies can be challenging, boss included, without having massive HP. True, they have, but it's not really a problem with some enemies. Crni mentioned the broodmother - I find that combat more tactical than problematical because of "big health". Also, it is an fairly easy, and fast one, if you ask me - a proper character build, with a proper coatings/salves/arrows/charms in use, it can be fairly easy. So is the Archdemon at the end.
They may (not) be much of a challenge, but I personally don't really blame HP for that. No combat took me more than 5 minutes to complete, which is okay by my standards.
As for D&D combat systems, I don't know much about them - in computer games, that is. I haven't played many D&D computer games (I play it old school, pen & paper), but if their combat system is same (or similar) in most their games, than I have experience with it (on long-term, I have only played Torment of all DnD cRPG).
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
The boss battles are fine, it's really the million mook phases that get tedious (the bridge in the Deep Roads is a prime example). Hell, the High Dragon fight in Origins is one of my favourite boss battles, ever, since a classical party with tanks is more or less doomed to fail because of the dragon's huge damage output, so it's much better to go for a ranged DPS party. Just remember to kill it in melee for the sweet finisher. The very same dragon in the sequel is a nightmare, however; the battle lasts about 30 minutes even with a fully decked-out and offensive-oriented party, and the dragon both summons hordes of reinforcements and hurls homing fireballs while being invulnerable. It's bullshit design and unfun, even if it's harder.
The Broodmother was also a nice fight, she wasn't that tough herself, you just had to thin out her troops fast or be overwhelmed. The battle that happens at the end of the Deep Roads was more challenging.
The Broodmother was also a nice fight, she wasn't that tough herself, you just had to thin out her troops fast or be overwhelmed. The battle that happens at the end of the Deep Roads was more challenging.
Torment might be DnD. But it really does not play like Baldurs Gate 2.Atomkilla said: