General Gaming Megathread: What are you playing?

Hassknecht is correct. naossano, what you don't seem to be understanding is that "could be used" is not the same as "was commonly used". I don't remember the earliest shooters that utilized mouse, but it was VERY poorly implemented compared to the classic arrow keys controls as suggested in game manuals up till even Quake II, which Shadow Warrior predates by a year. Build games were unusual in that they had "look up and down" functions, but they were not very well implemented, and they were often very disorienting to attempt. However even then such functions were commonly used with Page Up and Page Down keys, not the mouse.

You're suggesting that an improved control setup was used back in the 90s when that's simply not the case, because it took many years and lots of experimenting across dozens of games to finally get an improve control scheme down. For most of the decade, shooters used arrow keys for look right/left and move forward/backward and holding alt to allow strafing. Despite the fact that mouses did have some limited capacity for these things as well, it was NOT commonly used because of how cumbersome it was for players until games like Unreal found a way to make it work well and Counter Strike popularized it.

Anyway, back to what I'm playing... yes, dropping in on Shadow Warrior every now and then when I'm not punishing myself with Ninja Gaiden Sigma or losing myself in the vastness of Dota2. Though I'm mostly tackling SW one level at a time, cause it likes to shred my life points as I'm trying to figure out the puzzles of each room (it's been long enough that I've largely forgotten where to go, and I'm using that to my advantage so I can "relive" a fresh experience of the game!) so I find myself dying quite often. XD
 
You could choose between moving forward/backward and seeing up/down, which is important when you shoot flying enemies or enemies on above grounds, or before laying grenades on those under.

Games like Duke 3D were designed to be fully playable without any mouse, though. It was deactivated by default, the combat was rarely out of the horizontal (and if it wasn't, there was vertical auto aim) and the game never really required you to properly look up or down except for finding secrets.
Until Quake and its true three-dimensional approach game struggled with height, anyway.
It's really weird how long it took for games to adapt the WASD scheme, right?
There was even a time when this was the fucking God of FPS gaming :D
PantherXL_sm.jpg
Well, not really. But it was considered to be a good thing in 1996.
Can't find a proper pic of the Assassin3D, though.
 
Last edited:
It's really weird how long it took for games to adapt the WASD scheme, right?
I'd say it isn't weird at all. I feel like the transition from the full keyboard to the WASD and mouse controls was akin to the transition from horse-drawn carriages to automobiles; both were transitions toward improvement in efficiency, and in both cases it wasn't obvious with the older method that there WERE any improvements to be made. At least, that's the best I can do to rationalize it. I just recall the controls being inherent and second-nature back then, and there wasn't even a shred of consideration that "these could be better" at the time.
 
Can't tell much about the Doom/Wolfenstein era. 1997's Age Of Empires was the very reason i wanted to play computer games and it was totally a mouse based gameplay, so the FPS i played during my early computer days were already mouse+keyboard based. It included those i mentioned earlier, from the same era. So i never used to play FPS with keyboard only.

(never played WASD either. I always binded arrows for movements and mouse for vision/target)

But playing doom/Wolf without mouse seems less an issue considering the lack of vertical axis...
 
Last edited:
Games like Duke 3D were designed to be fully playable without any mouse, though. It was deactivated by default, the combat was rarely out of the horizontal (and if it wasn't, there was vertical auto aim) and the game never really required you to properly look up or down except for finding secrets.
Until Quake and its true three-dimensional approach game struggled with height, anyway.

Descent or terminal velocity were the first vertical shooters I've seen.
Not sure about heretic or hexen, but I think strife had vertical at the time.
Duke needed that functionality because jetpack flight, and it became a requirement for deathmatch.
Because you can frag much faster with mouse aim than key scroll, arrow movement went extinct.
 
Games like Duke 3D were designed to be fully playable without any mouse, though. It was deactivated by default, the combat was rarely out of the horizontal (and if it wasn't, there was vertical auto aim) and the game never really required you to properly look up or down except for finding secrets.
Until Quake and its true three-dimensional approach game struggled with height, anyway.

Descent or terminal velocity were the first vertical shooters I've seen.
Not sure about heretic or hexen, but I think strife had vertical at the time.
Duke needed that functionality because jetpack flight, and it became a requirement for deathmatch.
Because you can frag much faster with mouse aim than key scroll, arrow movement went extinct.

Heretic (and subsequently Hexen) also had vertical functionality. The basic Doom engine has some issues with rendering room-over-room situations, but there were some ways to get around that.
I think Marathon was one of the first FPS games that had proper free mouselook from the start.
 
Games like Duke 3D were designed to be fully playable without any mouse, though. It was deactivated by default, the combat was rarely out of the horizontal (and if it wasn't, there was vertical auto aim) and the game never really required you to properly look up or down except for finding secrets.
Until Quake and its true three-dimensional approach game struggled with height, anyway.

Descent or terminal velocity were the first vertical shooters I've seen.
Not sure about heretic or hexen, but I think strife had vertical at the time.
Duke needed that functionality because jetpack flight, and it became a requirement for deathmatch.
Because you can frag much faster with mouse aim than key scroll, arrow movement went extinct.

Heretic (and subsequently Hexen) also had vertical functionality. The basic Doom engine has some issues with rendering room-over-room situations, but there were some ways to get around that.
I think Marathon was one of the first FPS games that had proper free mouselook from the start.
Descent, as the name implies, was obviously a strongly mouse-bound vertical shooter, but it was also a background title few were really familiar with. Even Hexen was a somewhat unknown title in those days, despite the fact that it would later earn a (deservedly so) strong cult following. Most shooters were eclipsed by Doom (for many years) and Duke Nukem 3D. Even Quake was overshadowed until its sequel, and even then the biggest following those games received were their mods and speedruns, both of which were smaller, niche communities. Doom and Duke Nukem 3D were the top dogs of the shooter genre for many, many, many years.

Doom didn't have any issues with layering rooms on top one another; it was straight up IMPOSSIBLE. The engine was really 2.5D as there was no way to interact with the z-axis outside of falling and rising, which was little more than an illusion because your character was simply continuing on along the horizontal axises. You couldn't drop *on top of* an enemy, because their unit took up the entire z-axis. If there was a floor, or an object, or an enemy, that was the defined z-axis in totality. Duke 3D improved upon these shortcomings by some workarounds, but they were finicky. You could "interact" with sprites that could "levitate" you above a floor on an artificial floor, and this was done in abundance with catwalks, so the game was able to pull off the illusion of overlapping levels, but they were used very sparsely because of how unreliable they were. The game largely resorted to cleverly hidden "teleports" where one level would SEEM to be above another, when in reality you'd teleported to another section a long distance away on the x/y-axises.

Hexen (not Heretic, which was a Doom clone with the sole exception of adding an item system) was not nearly as advanced as Duke 3D, and had the same limitations of the z-axis as Doom did, but the level designs were far grander, and made much more use of height, despite the fact that the *player* couldn't interact with them. Quake was the first game to actually develop true 3D and utilize it in a shooter without any technical limitations to the z-axis, and as mentioned above, despite being a technically superior title, it was still overshadowed by Duke's popularity for a long time. Quake was the first title where using the mouse was actually practical, but it still used the legacy "auto targeting" shots which would train their targets along the z-axis so long as you were lined up with them on the horizontal axises, and this was done so the much more popular keyboard controls (which didn't make frequent use of looking up or down, due to how out-of-the-way the buttons were to where your hands rested) could function ideally with the game.

Mouses didn't become the norm for player control in shooters until well into the early 00s, and it was only through popularization by mods like Counter Strike. It was totally unapparent that WASD could be used for movement, because *everyone* was completely accustomed to using the arrow keys with your right hand for movement, so the notion of relegating movement to keys that weren't arrows, and for your left hand, was VERY far outside the box, which is why it took so long to catch on.

And, as I stated, which began this epoch of discussion on the history of shooters and their controls, Shadow Warrior was a title that fell well within the middle of this transitionary period. It was a spiritual successor to Duke 3D, yet it was an obscure title that few knew much about. It functioned almost identically to Duke 3D, with a few small improvements, and it still used the legacy auto-targeted vertical shots with the option to look up and down that was very infrequently used because the buttons were out-of-the-way of the customary button layout. The mouse controls were there, but they simply went unused, and they didn't function AT ALL like how mouses presently work in modern FPS games. Meanwhile, the Shadow Warrior Classic Steam Game has modern FPS controls coded into it, which is the ONLY "update" added into the game, so it feels wonky and unresponsive, at times, since the game wasn't designed with these control schemes in mind.

When using the remote control cars/boats, they become unruly because the normal "turn" controls have been shifted to the mouse, so you have to constantly drag your mouse back and forth to get very little turn out of the thing you're controlling, whereas back in 97 this worked very well because of the default arrow keys. The newer version has the auto-targeting disabled, which makes targeting enemies quite difficult compared to how it used to be, due to the abundance of floating or ducking or leaping enemies, so you chew through your ammo in the Steam version, unlike in the original, just to kill basic enemies. The changes to the controls and the mechanics aren't very large, but their impact on the game is felt cumulatively as you go along, and they really add up to major adverse affects in the long run. I don't know how much this applies to Redux, but it's quite likely to have a similar impact, since it's still working with the same engine, in the end.

All told, it's still a great game, and I'm still enjoying playing it. It's just that right now, on Steam, it's a great game with newer controls that clash with the game's design, so it presents hiccups where there weren't any, originally. Kinda like how the higher FPS made Shadow of the Colossus HD FAR trickier than the original. I'm not gonna stop playing SW right now, but that doesn't mean I don't notice the changes for the worse.
 
Once again, your perspective as a keyboard player need to be taken into consideration.
For players like myself that started FPS during the era of the build engine, or for those that tried those later, using the mouse was natural and the games totally allowed it. It seems more a matter or habit than the engine being agains't mouse. Those more familiar with specific tools used those while those familiar with other tools used those other tools.
 
Yeah, I used a mouse and keyboard combo for most of those games Snap listed. I feel like that was the case with Duke 3D, Quake, maybe Hexen, and Shadow Warrior. I never had any problems with controls on those games. Didn't Doom 2 let you use mouse as well? Sure there were limitations, and I do remember some shouting about the superiority of keyboard controls, but I distinctly remember circle strafing and spawn killing the hell out of those same folks...I also disagree with Quake not being as big a deal as Duke. Quake took over our LAN parties after Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, and Blood. Then came Team Fortress and Jedi Knight 2 along with Hexen 2. Using both a mouse and keyboard always gave me a better advantage over some of the straight keyboard users in those days, for the games that supported it of course. It all comes down to preference really. Screw the axis issues with the old FPS mouse controls. Never bothered me. I was never one of those dudes that thought Quake went in the right direction with the Strogg bullshit either. I lost interest in Quake after 2. The originals Lovecraftian/Doom influences worked best. Of course many didn't give a shit about the singleplayer. I did though.

I still remember a fair we had on main street one year when I was 12. The local tech school had a LAN setup as a booth with Duke 3d running. Some older dude, around 18 was running it along with my friends dad who was a teacher. The bragging "dude" kept saying how great he was at the game, warning me before I challenged him to play. My friend told me the dude beat everyone at the school and begged me to play against him and kick his ass. For the past few years I had been honing my talents on the pc with a wide variety of RTS and FPS games. I played them all, Duke 3D probably the most up to that point. I may have looked unassuming, but when was started the "dude" quickly learned how devious I was. We played the very first level. He thought he knew where all the secrets were. Ha! I holoduke/pipe bombed the hell out of him for most of the fight. I do believe tripwires were also involved. While he ran through my gauntlet I picked him off from afar. When he got in close I blasted him with the shotgun. The cameras help a lot I always found. By the end he was flying around in a halfass attempt to get some easy RPG kills from above, which really just made him an easy target for all the rockets I had. I seem to remember beating him by 30 or so kills. He was so pissed by the end it was hilarious. Then he went on to tell me he hardly ever played the game. Total backtracking on some of the shit he had said before. Good times. Never underestimate a 12 year old. Haha.
 
So, who is playing the Evolve Alpha? maybe we should organize a NMA session if it's even possible in the game.
 
It seems steam added this game on my library, courtesy of owning XCOM, but the 15 Go total of files still make me hesitate to install it.
Trying it with other NMA players seem interesting but i bet it would be nightmarish with our different timezones.
 
Oh, so it was because I have Xcom that I got the Alpha? Didn't know that. Only thing I know is that I decided to check the store page today after watching a couple of youtube videos an the thing told me the game was already on my library.
 
If you check steam games in your steam library (with the information view mode) you can get a few news related to the game/company/random stuff.
That's how i learnt why i got it.
I was wondering why the hell i had a new game on my library...
 
Decided to try out wow again for the first time in over 2 years. I regret everything and blizzard is one of my most hated company after Gamers first.

What a useless cluster of d graded programers they must have..

Ahh well at least i didn't have to pay a zent for the expansion/game time thanks to the 7 day trial :)
 
Screw the axis issues with the old FPS mouse controls. Never bothered me.
I never said the technical limitations of the z-axis ever bothered me when I played these games as a kid. I said I took note of them. I picked apart the programming used to create these games, as I fancied being able to become one of the gaming savants at an early age. This, of course, was in the mid-90s, when every major gaming company was a garage band of programmer friends, before Triple A became the unwieldy behemoth of today, so there was actually a possibility of my dreams coming true. But of course, time changes all things, and my interests strayed away from game design and into other realms.

But that's besides the point... I noted the technical limitations of the z-axis and pseudo-z-axis in the older games throughout the 90s, but they never presented me any problems, because they were customary to how the games were played. NOW it's a different story. A control scheme derived from games with completely different designs and mechanics was implanted into a game that was made before these were possible, and to anyone who's grown accustomed to the gradual change (improvement) in games, it presents a jarring problem now. Not 17 years ago, on the original; today, on the re-release. That's why I likened the problems introduced to the HD re-release of Shadow of the Colossus, because it was a 1080p update of the PS2 game, and the added framerate caused problems with the game's programming, unintentionally increasing its difficulty via bullshit problems. Players were able to cope with it (I know I did), but that doesn't mean the new dilemma which didn't exist prior wasn't now present.

And my points were, as always, irrelevant of my own personal standards. Everyone I knew growing up used the all-keyboard controls, so independent of my own preferences (I experimented with mouse or not mouse with any game with mouse support) it simply appeared to me that sans mouse was the popular preference. And looking up internet discussions with players who remember how things used to be, I see more people bringing up their preference for all-keyboard. Again, I never said it was universal, I just pointed out it was common. There's always people who feel inclined to debate over the superiority of one thing over the other, just like there was a Sega vs Nintendo and Bluray vs HD and Sony vs Microsoft. There always will be differences in approach, but if there's ever a tendency towards a particular side, even if it's regional (like Sony in Japan, and Microsoft in the U.S.) I'd rather take note of that, for posterity's and accuracy's sakes.

- - - - -

And Makta, I just have to ask..... why?

EDIT: Well I've now officially reached the more-or-less-universally-agreed-upon-as-the-MOST-annoying chapter in all of Ninja Gaiden for either fastest speed or top score attempts. There's a section that cuts a TON of time and puts you in a better position for getting lots of points, and it requires very specific technique, positioning, and timing to get from one place to another to accomplish this. You'd think that tendency to dissect a game's programming I mentioned earlier would make this simple for me, but no. This game's far too complicated to figure it out that easily, and this little trick that's required is just that demanding. It's frustrating as all hell. I am NOT looking forward to repeating this when I come back on Master Ninja difficulty... >_<
 
Last edited:
Descent, as the name implies, was obviously a strongly mouse-bound vertical shooter, but it was also a background title few were really familiar with.

Actually, I've only played descent with a flight stick, no mouse at all.
Most of us kids back then just wanted to play games, but there were older folks doing programming etc.
They had the hardware and they let us test VR sets and they teach us network code. Fun times to be a kid.

I just have to ask..... why?

I know it's none of my business, but it's kinda obvious, isn't it?
Instead of warcraft4 that blizzard fans always wanted, they give us what exactly?
And to what end? From their PoV it's profit > company rep > dev > end user. That's why.
See teamliquid forum for details and a bonus flamewar on the subject.
 
Beating Wasteland 2 has left a void in my gaming life. I quit playing on my second playthrough. I find the loot grind to be pretty tedious. Eventually the opening of useless loot containers gets redundant. It takes some of the joy out of things, but I'll pick it up again after another patch or two.

I did beat Super Castlevania 4 again though. Still holds up today. Always preferred it the most of all the Castlevania games. It's not too difficult, but it's hard enough to kick you in the ass. The score is amazing, it controls perfect, the graphics still look great today...it generally manages to impress in most respects.

My buddy and I took a swing at Super Ghouls and Ghosts. Beat it once but had to save state it since he needed to leave. We'll knock it out pretty soon and then I might take a crack at Battletoads. Wish I had the original systems but eh. Emulators are fun, but I feel like the gamer cred is much lower. If you tell someone you beat Super Ghouls and Ghost both times with the bracelet on the SNES you have some bragging rights. Not so much with an emulator. But hey its fun so screw it. We only save when we quit. The only difference is fatigue doesn't set in. :grin:
 
Just finished Kingpin: Life of Crime again.
Loved that game, but fuck, it's hard. Even on medium difficulty it's pretty ballsy, I don't even want to know how it is on hard or real.
I remembered it to be longer, though. Damn, it deserves a sequel.
 
I simply gave up on trying to finish Kingpin on account of how hard it was, even from the beginning!

Even as we speak, I'm playing Stronghold: Crusader with the high definition patch added to it. I'm well aware of the new sequel, but I'm sorry to say that it doesn't really appeal to me as much as the original version does. Besides, the new Crusader game relies on Steam. Yuck.

Oh, and is it just me, or is the official Stronghold Wiki's description of one of the games' villains a little on the homoerotic side of things?

Stronghold Wiki said:
The Wolf is built from pure muscle, undoubtedly making him the strongest of the foes you will meet. His awesome presence comes mainly from his well-toned gargantuan figure, which is capped with a sturdy pair of broad shoulders. His square jaw is coated with a layer of rough stubble and, coupled with his well defined cheekbones, gives him a handsome Germanic look. His pair of cold steely eyes rounded off by thick eyebrows almost meeting in the middle, allow him to turn his intense stare on or off at will. He usually wears a loose fitting red shirt with the top two buttons undone which exposes his ample chest hair that rhythmically heaves up and down as he breathes.
 
Descent, as the name implies, was obviously a strongly mouse-bound vertical shooter, but it was also a background title few were really familiar with.

Actually, I've only played descent with a flight stick, no mouse at all.
Most of us kids back then just wanted to play games, but there were older folks doing programming etc.
They had the hardware and they let us test VR sets and they teach us network code. Fun times to be a kid.
Yeah, those were the days. =D I remember using this old, dusty, kinda rigid joystick controller for a bunch of games before I figured out that I was much better off (with most of the games that I played) with the keyboard.

I just have to ask..... why?

I know it's none of my business, but it's kinda obvious, isn't it?
Instead of warcraft4 that blizzard fans always wanted, they give us what exactly?
And to what end? From their PoV it's profit > company rep > dev > end user. That's why.
See teamliquid forum for details and a bonus flamewar on the subject.
I think you're missing the point of my question. I wasn't asking, "What was it that made you decide to play this game?" I was asking, "Why man? WHY would you subject yourself to this torture? You know better!!!"

Beating Wasteland 2 has left a void in my gaming life. I quit playing on my second playthrough. I find the loot grind to be pretty tedious. Eventually the opening of useless loot containers gets redundant. It takes some of the joy out of things, but I'll pick it up again after another patch or two.
Not good to hear. =( Is WL2 in general plagued by tedium, or did you just find that there wasn't enough replay value delight to make any level of repetition and redundancy overlook-able? Having never played the original, but of course hearing much about it as a game so closely tied to the Fallout franchise's origins, I was looking forward to WL2, even more so once it became a crowd-funded icon of the "fuck the establishment" game development model. Having not gotten around to playing IT yet, I sure hope it's just a few hang-ups you're focusing on, not that the game isn't everything we'd hoped for. Any details you could elaborate upon, perhaps?
 
Back
Top