Gun Control

[HydroFlame]

Who hunts wolves? *Looks at avatar* Let me at 'em! Actually, there are no wolves in KY that I know of. No, but seriously, I see the point about needing to keep the animal population down. Especially deer. Those fuckers cause a lot of car accidents. I have had the displeasure of being in a car that hit one and the deer got right up and walked off after it had flipped in the air a couple times.

I'm not sure how I feel about hunting for sport. I could never kill an animal. I've had people wanting me to at least try hunting and I just can't do that. But hey, if you want to hunt to keep these pesky critters out of my yard, feel free to.

 

[Hassknecht]

In Germany hunting is quite restricted. Only during specific seasons and only a certain amount. And you need an expensive and extensive hunting license. But usually everything that is shot is also eaten somewhere if not by yourself.

 

[HydroFlame]

Hunting licensees are fairly cheap and easy to get here. When we have deer season people are limited in how many they can kill, but I'm not sure of the number. I think it's two. You also have to get them tagged afterwards. Maybe @R.Graves would know more on this.

 

[Crni Vuk]

"Institutional" or "systemic" racism is a very loosely defined term that can be basically everything if it fits your argument. It serves to redefine "racism" so there can never be no racism, there'll always be something systemic. Because the violence is inherent in the system, of course!

All the *isms have been quietly redefined to use a lot of lingo from postmodernist philosophers so they will always be present, and can be basically everything.

Except that we're not talking about something that happend 500 years ago, but actually about a situation where you have still people that remember it. Some great grand mothers and grandfathers actually could tell their families stories about slavery and parents can tell something about racial segregation, 150 years isn't such a long time when you think about it! Look at how much WW2 is still present in our culture, history and lives even today, in many ways people don't even realize. So you can't tell me centuries of racism and sexism isn't playing a role in our society today. Do people seriously believe that something just dissapears from the institutions because we change laws and say, well now everyone is equal? We still have homophobes, racists and sexists present in politics and important positions where they of course influence certain decisions. Just because we're not seeing the same kind of discrimination like in the 60s where people had to sit in the back of the bus, means we're suddenly free from discrimination. Particularly when we're thinking about policies that have been made in the 1950s that STILL have a huge effect even today. Take the whole process and history behind suburbs in the past for example, where we KNOW(!) today that it was motivated by racism - there are hard data, quotes and informations available today. It will take generations to remove this effect from some areas.

Look, yes a hell of a lot of things have improved thankfully and we never had as much equality and freedom between the sexes and colours as we do today in the US and most of Europe, and yes not everything is racist or sexist or what ever but that's not what I said anyway. But that doesn't mean the racist and discriminatory policies that have been in effect a couple of decades ago don't have their effect today and exposing and explaining them is a good thing. Remember that we had laws in Germany that described Homosexuality as mental illness till the 1970s? Or how long did it take to declare rape in marriage illegal? To the majority of people, those effects are not always visible and it can sometimes look like it's just complaining or 'entitlement', but it's not. Yes some people feel entitled assholes exist everywhere, but that doesn't change the fact that for example certain minorities have to apply more often for some positions than the majority or that you don't have to deal with instutionalised discrimination, like the law in Canada where homosexuals can't donate blood. And this can be seen in many more situations. I certainly encountered some and so did others in my family due their background as migrants.

 

[DarkCorp]

Crni

But when one speaks of systemic or institutional, one needs PROOF. Proof that not some individuals but the institution itself is openly supportive of racist policies.

We can tackle individual instances of racism as they pop up but to go round shouting buzzwords like institutional racism is useless virtue signaling.

Racism is evil and should be fought against but all this virtue signalling and slogan chanting doesn't help.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Systemic Racism includes the policies and practices entrenched in established institutions, which result in the exclusion or promotion of designated groups. It differs from overt discrimination in that no individual intent is necessary. (Toronto Mayor's Committee on Community and Race Relations. Race Relations: Myths and Facts)

It manifests itself in two ways:

1. institutional racism: racial discrimination that derives from individuals carrying out the dictates of others who are prejudiced or of a prejudiced society
2. structural racism: inequalities rooted in the system-wide operation of a society that excludes substantial numbers of members of particular groups from significant participation in major social institutions. (Henry & Tator, 2006, p. 352)

http://www.aclrc.com/forms-of-racism/


Race, Ethnicity, and Exclusion
Mass suburbanization had equally dramatic consequences for race in postwar America. Suburbia beckoned with opportunity for millions of whites, but it remained rigidly segregated and broadly exclusive throughout the postwar decades. Mass suburbs supported ethnic and racial assimilation, where Italians, Poles, Greeks, Jews, and other European-Americans found a common social ground that solidified their identity as “whites.”19 The beneficiaries of racially structured federal policies, millions of “not yet white ethnics” (as historian, Thomas Sugrue described them) attained symbols of white, middle-class status, such as college educations, pensions, small businesses, and homes of their own.20 Mass suburbia tied these benefits together in a coherent spatial package, providing a setting for common experiences, aspirations, and interests. And because these communities were prefaced on the principle of racial exclusion, the new suburbs reinforced solidarities of race while downplaying the significance of ethnic, religious, and occupational differences. Further reinforcing this merger of race and suburbia were the ever-present images in the national media of happy, white families celebrating the postwar suburban dream.

At the same time, African American, Asian American, and Latino families battled for access to the suburbs, challenging not only the presumed whiteness of suburbia but the ideology of white supremacy implicit in postwar suburban ideology. In response, white suburbanites in concert with other crucial players—including government—created a web of discrimination that secured links between race, social advantage, and metropolitan space. Mechanisms of segregation included collusion by real estate brokers, homebuilders and lenders, discriminatory federal housing guidelines, local neighborhood associations, municipal land use controls, and the threat of violence. FHA underwriting guidelines, for example, explicitly required racial segregation until the early 1950s. In most cases, that spelled exclusion from a program that did so much to lift millions of whites into the middle class. By 1960, African Americans and other people of color had received just 2% of FHA-insured mortgages.21 Added to the barriers of institutional racism, recent historical studies suggest that acts of violence and intimidation against nonwhite neighbors—including arson, bombings, death threats, and mob assaults—numbered in the hundreds during the decades after World War II. In the Chicago suburb of Cicero, for instance, rumors that a black family had rented a local apartment in 1951 provoked a mob to ransack the building. This bleak side of postwar urban history led historian Arnold Hirsch to refer to the 1940s and 1950s as “an era of hidden violence.”22 African Americans were targeted in most of these attacks, but discrimination also affected Asian Americans and Latinos, albeit in less predictable and capricious ways. In one well-publicized instance, a Chinese American couple, Grace and Sing Sheng, responded to the objections of white neighbors, who opposed their purchase of a house in suburban San Francisco in 1952, by suggesting a vote. Opponents prevailed 174–28 in the informal canvas, and the disillusioned Shengs decided to move elsewhere.23

http://oxfordre.com/americanhistory...29175-e-64#acrefore-9780199329175-e-64-div2-3

What we're mainly talking about here is the participation of minorities in our every day society, which is statistically prooven, more difficult. That does NOT(!) mean individuals like poor white people for example, wouldn't be suffering from dire situations, job looses, economic issues and/or policies. Just to make this clear.

 

[DarkCorp]

Crni

I have read the wikipedia articles and I ALSO do not contest that there was INSTITUTIONAL racism in the PAST.

However, we are not talking about the past but we are talking about the present. Name me one institution where it has proven, OFFICIAL, racist policies. Departmental policies that are clearly and blatantly racist, which are considered acceptable or actually promoted. Show that and I will agree with you.

In your argument:

1. You need proof that there are blatantly racist laws legislated at the federal level and that they are openly supported and encouraged.

2. Name a specific institution and the specific policies that are specifically racist.

Every instance people have pointed out so far involves a few officers, in a few different departments, in different, cities, in different states.

 

[Hassknecht]

The problem with "structural racism" as it is used today is that is puts the cart before the horse. It sees that significant members of a minority are excluded from somewhere and pinpoints the causality on some sort of abstract, unfalsifiable racism.

 

[GonZo_626]

Not sure if you want to pull the "technological advancement" argument considering the not pictured option C is "you don't actually need to hunt for sustainment anymore and it's arguably how warranted or dare I say ethical doing so for leisure is"

Bah, the only reason for that technological advancement was so we don't need to chase them and beet them to death, agriculture over chasing deer with sharp stone on stick. Grains don't run at all.

As for hunting without firearms....

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...unting-after-controversial-bear-hunting-video

Its not considered "humane" anymore. We are only being humane by hunting with firearms now.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I know how this might sound to some of you, but it really does seem that you have to walk in someone's shoes to actually understand it. There are minorities that are marginalized and opressed. I experienced it my self, I heard the stories and it does happen in institutions as well. I know people that experienced it. First hand. In my family.

Even with the danger to repeat my self, no the kind of discrimination and opression we're talking about today is NOT(!) comparable with what we had 50, 100 or 150 years ago. And no, not everyon is racist, the majority of people isn't. But those are simply put, the challanges of our time, just as how racial segreation was not as bad like slavery, it didn't stop the people of their time to expose it and to fight it. But still, someone I know very well moved from Berlin to Munich with his family, because a good friend was killed by Neonazis.

If you need either more facts or if you're 'unhappy' with the definitions and how they are used, well than I am sorry I am not sure what else I could say or do here. I am not trying to convince anyone (anymore).


A particular comet to you Hass, but we're talking about a very particular field here that simply doesn't work like physics or math where you could apply the same kind of empiricism. I know this is frustrating, I know it because it's becoming my field of expertise and it frustrates me as well as I place a lot of emphasis on empricism - this is one of the reasons why paedagogy isn't a science and is build at least today for the most part on psychology. But to say that it's some sort of abstract unfalsifiable racism, is simply not true. Do I have to remind you what kind of political parties we have right now in our own Parliament? Here in Bavaria a member of the NSAfD might become head of education. Or the shit that happend in Chemnitz? Who the Minister for Home Affairs is and who the former minister for the intelligence service was? If the recent NSU Scandal is not a perfect example of institutional racism, then I do not know what it is. Or the case of Oury Jalloh, which is the next scandal involving parts of our institutions. People are joking that our intelligence service is blind on the right eye and you have extreme right wing networks in the KSK and parts of the Bundeswehr. Or an example of the police in Wiena, which has currently a conversvative-extreme-right-wing government :



And there are similar examples in Germany as well.

Sorry. I know to many people that experienced racism and discrmination in all kinds and forms to call it 'abstract', what you see as abstract is the reality for some of us.

 

[KingArthur]

I will say that while institutional racism as an idea isn’t a fallacy, applying it to all police is like generalizing a race; yes they profile, but that’s because of statistics that say minorities commit the most crimes, which Crni and yfk12 are arguing is because of poverty and institutional racism. And thus the cycle repeats.

It’s a circular argument but I don’t see what it has to do with gun control really; at the end of the day, if you believe we live in a “rape culture” or that all cops are racist it’s just weird to hate firearms.

Beyond that, “we the people” encounter the same trouble police do, generally before they arrive. Read that somewhere.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No, that's not what I am saying. Or at least that's not the message I want to put forth.

I am not saying here that every viollent action, poor community or instance we see today has always and only to do with the racist policies of the past or is an effect that's caused by instutitonal racism and discrimination. Nor do I want to say, that individuals are not responsible for their own actions, marginalized or not but it isn't an excuse for criminal behaviour. However, there is a difference between a reason and an excuse after all! What I argue about is that many people do not adress the issue with the required seriousness.

It's more like lead pollution in water and the adverse health effects, really. We don't have to discuss the severe effects it can cause, but that doesn't mean that ALL severe effects happen due to lead pollution in drinking water. Instutional racism is very similar. It can take a bad situation and make it simply even worse.

 

[KingArthur]

@Crni Vuk my bad. I misunderstood, but I get what you’re saying now. It’s fair to say that racism is the ultimate escalator of a situation.

 

[DarkCorp]

Crni

I am not asking for a lot here.

1. Name me the institution that is racist.

2. Name said policies that are specifically racist. Not individual actions that are contrary to proscribed policy but the policy ITSELF that tells people to be racist.

In the case of Oury Jalloh, was it standard operating procedure for police to tie inmates to their bed? Is it standard policy to turn off a sound acoustic system because he cannot understand a telephone call? Most importantly, would the answer to the previous questions be YES, but only to non white inmates? Did the government officially encourage these officers to act in such a manner? If so, then that would be an example of institutional racism.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I gave you the articles, research and informations, read them and make your own opinion about them. I think I said everything that I can to elaborate my point and where the issue is.

But I will go with one and last example here.

The NSU, was an extreme right wing terror network that killed people mostly of turkish origin over the last 10-12 years. The only surviving member - that we know off - has now ended up in jail. One of the lawyers of the victims is getting threats via mails. Pretty much a standard these days, where pretty much everyone who's out there in the public and speaking against extremists is getting some kind of threat be it over Facebook or mail. But recently she did not only got the typical death treats, but someone actually send her a letter where they talked about killing her daughter and they also knew the adress of her daughter. The lawyer gave the letter to the police, they did an investigation. What they found out is that the letter came from a small group of 5 police officers in Frankfurt. Police officers who used to send Hitler images to each other over whatsapp and they used the network inside the police to find the adress of the lawyers daughter. That's kinda frightening when you think about it.

This is an example of institutional racism. We simply see more and more of such cases coming to the surface where extremists created networks inside government institutions, like the police, army and intelligence services and now weith the AFD we even have an extreme-right wing party inside the parliament, a party where some members are neonazis and have contact to neonazis and they have now access to the resources of some goverment institutions, go figure. AGAIN(!) They are NOT(!) the majority of the people out there. But they have influence and they are in positions of power and they have been tolerated for decades.

As the child of migrants those are things that actually worry me because what we're talking about here are not just single incidents anymore but systemic issues.

Anyway, I won't write much more about this as I really can't explain it better or give you better examples than the ones I mentioned. In other words, I can not make you feel about the things the same ways as I do.

In the case of Oury Jalloh, was it standard operating procedure for police to tie inmates to their bed? Is it standard policy to turn off a sound acoustic system because he cannot understand a telephone call? Most importantly, would the answer to the previous questions be YES, but only to non white inmates? Did the government officially encourage these officers to act in such a manner? If so, then that would be an example of institutional racism.

I am talking about the fact that he, as the 'official' version goes, burned him self to death.

 

[KingArthur]

In other words, I can not make you feel about the things the same ways as I do.

I’d say that most political discussions boil down to that.

But as for everything else, I can’t imagine how fucking terrifying that is for the people involved. We live in a really fucked up time. I’m sorry to hear about the sway neonazis seem to have there; the only thing in the US I can think of was that whole “cannibal cop” controversy with the police officer visiting sites on the dark web like CannibalCafe and talking about killing and eating his gf, and the argument against him was that he was gonna do it and the defense was that it was a fucked up fantasy.

Not at all the same as the 5 cops sending a death threat, but still pretty fucked up.

 

[yfk12]

I think we're going off topic again.

 

[KingArthur]

I think we're going off topic again.

You’re right. I think it’s mainly because it’s a very multifaceted issue, with no clear solution, and violence is a variable issue with no clear cause. That being said, thanks for creating that other thread. Should keep us on track now, at least.

 

[R.Graves]

Hate speech is a thing in US too, and people go to prison for it

lol no we don't.

And yea, luckily there are no security cams in all of USA, right..

let's just ignore how easily you ignore orwelian posters put up buy the government and look at how MANY secutiry cams are in london.

there is one camera for every 11 people in britain. big brother is watching you.

hat's including the whites, the 'ones in power'.

shit like this is absolutely retarded. black man. two terms. president. eat dicks.

Imagine how low the trust of cops is in the minority groups who have been victimized for centuries and only got the ability to vote in like 40-50 years ago.

"oh there was a problem nearly a century ago ago fuck whitey amirite guys? lol injustices of the past totally justify mistrust now amirite?

US has fought against Japan in WW 2, Korea and Vietnam. The veterans of these wars don't necessarily like people of oriental appearance. You cool with that? Even the veterans of the more recent wars can't necessarily tell the difference between the various Asian ethnicities and might think you're a 'haji' or a 'sand n-word'. You cool with that too? In addition to 'gook', 'chink', 'slant-eye', etc.

actually, yeah. see in america we have this thing where we can say and think whatever we want, regardless of how wrong it is. we might get our ass kicked. we might lose our job. but we'll never be arrested for saying something fucked up.

wars can't necessarily tell the difference between the various Asian ethnicities

literally how is this a problem? if you asked me the differences between how a swedish person looks and how a russian person looks i couldn't fucking tell you. why would it be any different for another racial group?

 

[BigGuyCIA]

Hate speech is a thing in US too, and people go to prison for it.

Wrong. You go to jail for incitement of violence not for teaching your dog how to seig heil. Is there anything you know about the U.S. that isn't as misrepresented in your articles you so desperately cling to?

In my country over 90% of the population trusts the police. In USA it's something like 50%, and that's including the whites, the 'ones in power'. Imagine how low the trust of cops is in the minority groups who have been victimized for centuries and only got the ability to vote in like 40-50 years ago. Jews could vote in the two Germanies way before blacks could vote in USA.

US has fought against Japan in WW 2, Korea and Vietnam. The veterans of these wars don't necessarily like people of oriental appearance. You cool with that? Even the veterans of the more recent wars can't necessarily tell the difference between the various Asian ethnicities and might think you're a 'haji' or a 'sand n-word'. You cool with that too? In addition to 'gook', 'chink', 'slant-eye', etc.

This country has a lot of issues but it isn't race that's perpetuated by media. That's a red herring intended to dupe dipshits like you into ignoring how the massively wealthy are shoring up shell corporations to avoid paying taxes. This is leading to gross amounts of money that goes 'uncollected' and ailing institutions that need the money are crippled. That money can literally pay for the education system and then some. Instead, we're stuck arguing about stupid shit like race and gun control because it's a problem apparently.

We're experiencing a decline in everything related to crime. Even with the amount of guns we have in circulation we have less mass shootings per capita than most countries, but according to @MutantScalper it's the wild west. Truly, I can't tell if you're just dumb, drunk, or ignorant. Maybe all of the above.