Gun Control

Arnust

I got 'caught' up because you brought it up.

Taxes

Everyone uses the police, armies, infrastructure, etc. There is a HUGE difference.

Healthy and happy?? What is your definition, it varies from person to person.

Bad choices

And AGAIN, I have said I am in FAVOR of medical and insurance reform, which will help addicts and crazy people. The point of contention between me and you is that your more than happy to forgive people for fucking up again and again, I am not. You might believe that fuckups are only due to 'racism', and not on personal choices, I don't.

I also know that Cocaine and Heroin are bad without needing to use said substances. There are small fuckups and BIG fuckups. Do not equate getting oneself or someone else killed/addicted with lying. Just like it would be equally silly, to equate making bad financial decision after another, with a brainfart. You try and lump them all into the same category when that would be silly.
 
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What I mean by that is if we keep bailing people out, the money that goes into circulation through the government using higher taxes in that way will cause inflation; and the only people who won’t be struggling are the rich. It might work at first, I’ll admit, but as a long term solution we need job plans more than bailout plans.
True, we're only allowed to bail out banks and large companies.

The way how I see it the kind of economic system we have in place right now, is bound to collapse at some point. It's build on infinite growth, which on a planet with limited resources and space is bound to end in a collapse at some point. You should go and check the clube of rome and their new books on the limits of growth. A lot of it is based on scientific research. Another issue they talk about clearly, is how the human population has to be stabilized and decreased at some point.

Crni

I think this is the problem.

Pressure does not equal punishment. This is the fundamental difference that your not understanding. Unconditional only creates more problems. Do I need to bring up the refugee situation again? Your 'unconditional', help is what caused refugees to gladly skip staying in other countries, and go to Germany. That resulted in parties like the AfD actually getting into power.
No it isn't, the people fled because of their shitty situations at home.

Without the intention to attack you, but I am afraid I have to say a lot of what you said is build on right-wing myths. Here is some fact checking and it explains in detail what actually lead to the people arriving in Germany - a small hint, it was not our well-fare system:



To make it short, most of the refugees have been stuck in camps near Turkey, their supplies have been runing out and they started to get on the move and each state simply allowed them to pass trough, not willing to deal with them, till Germany said, we do it and beacuse no one feelt responsible they all now shit on Germany for 'opening the flood gates'. Particularly hungary who allowed the refugees to get till the austrian border, which made them panick.

Anyway. I can not talk about the US wellfare system in detail but I know that our German wellfare is build on the principle of 'Fordern und Fördern', which pretty much means 'Demand and Support'. It's exactly build on this preasure you're talking about. And after 15 years we have the data mate. It. Doesn't. Work. The moment you get preasure in to it, it doesn't have to be punishment, you're not actually reaching people you're just making them depressed and forcing them into low wage jobs. It's extrinsic motivation and as we know from new research by brain scientists, like Gerald Hüther is a very ineffective way of changing behaviour and attitudes. The goal has to be to get intrinsic motivation, geting people exited about a subject and devloping enthusiasm which can only happen if people are comfortable and actually have a real chance to chose what they want to do, not what someone is telling them to do. Some people will be happy with cleaning floors, others want to go to a university and others want to get out into the nature and simply enjoying their life, maybe someone wants only to do charity work, taking care of their sick parents or children and so on and so forth. And we need a new economic system that supports this.
 
@Crni Vuk I’ll check those books out. Thanks! And as for the population thing, it’s unfortunate but true. We need to stop fucking one another lmao.
 
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As someone once said, this planet can provide for everyones need but not for everyones greed. And that's precisely the problem.
 
@Crni Vuk my concern is less that billionaires will go bankrupt and more that the taxation will make people lose incentive to invest, or work, or what have you in the same way that bailouts for the poor make it so that they lose incentive to work, because they can live on the government’s dollar through food stamps and other means tested welfare programs.
The problem here is that you're suggesting that we have to choose between the two extremes of hypercapitalism and communism. There's no reason why we can't use a more moderate system, where there are still plenty of incentives to work hard, but not to the point where the richest man in the world is wealthier than the average person by a factor of 200,000. Sure, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates worked hard to get where they were, but it's a stretch to think that they worked a hundred thousand times harder.
 
@yfk12 I suppose my biggest concern is that the system will naturally slide to one end of the spectrum or another over time; like how capitalism turns to corporatism.
 
@yfk12 I suppose my biggest concern is that the system will naturally slide to one end of the spectrum or another over time; like how capitalism turns to corporatism.
This is a fair concern. However, it's easier for the scale to slide in the direction of capitalism than vice versa, because all the rich people with all the power want the system to be as capitalist as possible so that they can keep making all the money.
 
This is a fair concern. However, it's easier for the scale to slide in the direction of capitalism than vice versa, because all the rich people with all the power want the system to be as capitalist as possible so that they can keep making all the money.
Won’t argue with that.
 
@Crni Vuk my concern is less that billionaires will go bankrupt and more that the taxation will make people lose incentive to invest, or work, or what have you in the same way that bailouts for the poor make it so that they lose incentive to work, because they can live on the government’s dollar through food stamps and other means tested welfare programs.

The UBI is not communism. It's not even socialism - look up the history of it, besides I HATE socialism and I am not proposing a planed economy where we remove the rules of demand and supply, not to mention that socialism has the rule >>He who does not work shall not eat<<. In that part at least socialism and neo-liberalism are very similar and I would even go a step further and argue that today corporate culture is becoming more and more like a state economy and planed economy when you look at how much lobbyism is taking over. Or what would you call the bail out of banks and large companies? Isn't that corporate wellfare for managers and stock holders? But I digress.

And having for example a limit on income, isn't a socialist or communist idea either, for example if you made the rule that no individual is allowed to earn more than $400.000 per year or if that sounds better $1.000.000, would that be so bad? If I am not mistaken, the US once had very similar idea, the so called maximum wage. I quote "(...) In 1942, during World War II, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed a maximum income of $25,000 during the war". If we calculate inflation, that would be a limit of $440,221.43 today. Besides Socialism is nothing more than state-capitalism. What I propose, is a complete change, the idea of de-growth, cradle-to-cradle economies, economy for the common good, post-industrial economies, and so on. There are many hypothetical alternatives. You also shouldn't missunderstand me - is this a language thing? I do NOT(!) want to remove all wealth or incentives to work. I just want to give people the freedom to chose on their own and to set a limit on EXCESSIVE wealth. No individual on this planet needs to be a billionair or even a millionair. If you earn 2, 3 or 400.000$ a year you are wealthy enough. No one can tell me it's 'poverty'. But for me personaly a choice is only a choice if you can also say 'No', without facing consequences or preasure. In that sense, the UBI would be even very libertarian in my opinion, as you could make the choice as individual to say, this is a very shitty job, I am not gona take it and look for something better or use my time do educate my self etc..

But you're right, some of my views could probably be considered as pretty extreme. But I am not an extremist per se, I just believe we will reach one day a point where we simply won't have a choice, if we want to survive and enjoy some kind of quality of life. Take the global economy for example which is for the most part about exploitation of human workforce and all kinds of resources. If we completely cut down the rain forrest and remove almost every fish in the ocean while burning fossil fuel, what do you think will happen in 20, 30 or 50 years? How long can this lifestyle be keept up before we have to implement very drastic measures and regulations that will hit us very hard. We might even end up in autocratic governments for exactly that reason as it might become a qustion of surivial. It's like suffering from cancer. If chemotherapy is your only choice for a succesfull treatment, what are you going to do? Decline because it makes your hair fall off and puking every day and suffering from heavy side effects? Should we rather say, naw I want to die. The way we destroy the environment is directly tied to how wealth is generated today. We are hooked up on this idea of endless economic growth and if we don't start to implement changes now, we will one day suffer from a heavy withdrawal.

What I would like to see is a different approach where we don't become autocratic societies, hence why I believe that we should implement some changes now where we still have options and time to do something without suffering to severely from the effects. For example the democratisation of large corporations, limits on wealth, high taxation of large income and a limit on maximum income, strengthening of domestic economies where we invest in circular economies and eco-friendly infrastructures, supporting farmers, local populations etc. to invest in technologies and procedures with the intention to achieve a balance. Artificial Intelligence, Digitalisation etc. surely will give us the tools for it in the ner future.

In other words, we should not spend more resources than the environment can regenerate. We do not have to eat 3 times meat every day, driving SUVs to the mall or throwing 1/3 of our food away to live good and decent lives.

democracy.jpg
 
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Crni

So your saying that Germany is having a high population of refugees not because their benefits are better but simply because nobody else will take them and Merkel decided that Germany would be the sacrificial lamb?

In regards to the German welfare situation, maybe it doesn't work because people simply do not want to follow the welfare regulations? Again, that is like someone asking the government for money, the government takes it from me in the form of taxes, and then they tell the government/me that I can't tell them, they better not waste that money? They can go fuck themselves then.

Welfare isn't highschool or college. These people do not have all the time in the world to figure out what the fuck they want to do. They HAVE to be productive members of society if they are living on Joe Publics dime.

So it is sad enough you want to limit income but you want to tax what gets in at 91 percent? And you said you do not want to remove all incentives to work?

Come on man. The reason why we get the best is because we pay the best. The only way your proposals would work is if EVERY country adhered to the same principles, which I KNOW wouldn't happen. A lot of things like wages is directly tied to competition, both internal and external.

We have had past discussions with UBI and I think with %100 automation, it could happen. Otherwise, until that point, your not going to find a lot of enthusiasm for such a project.

The bank bailout is not corporate welfare, it was quite simply, WELFARE for everyone. The government decided that it would be cheaper to bail the banks out and get extra power/leverage over them rather than letting them fail and having to involve the FDIC pledge. The banks fail, that means a lot of jobs are going to be wiped out overnight. You had this with Enron, Goldman Sachs, etc.
 
If I have a billionair and I take 90% of his wealth away, does that mean he's now poor?
Sounds like you robbed his ass but were oh so gracious to allow him to keep that 10 million out of the goodness of your heart. Until you need that for something.
 
Sounds like you robbed his ass but were oh so gracious to allow him to keep that 10 million out of the goodness of your heart. Until you need that for something.

Let us grief for the thing that will never never ever possibly will ever happen. F.
 
Sounds like you robbed his ass but were oh so gracious to allow him to keep that 10 million out of the goodness of your heart. Until you need that for something.
10% of a billion isn't 10 million.

But you have a point. Maybe we should start a gofund me page for all those ... poor rich? People that loost 90% of their billion? I am sure we can find someone to donate caviar, gold and such. You don't happen to have a spare yacht lieing around somewhere you don't need? Maybe a rolex with diamonds? It would be appreciated.

Crni

So your saying that Germany is having a high population of refugees not because their benefits are better but simply because nobody else will take them and Merkel decided that Germany would be the sacrificial lamb?
Watch the video, it contains all the necessary informations, sources and what the German government officialy stated. Of course many people would like to come to Germany and Europe to improve their situation. But just lookig this alone, is a gross simplification. Refugees are not the same as migrants or asylum seekers by the way. You're more talking about people like my parents who came hare 40 years ago, to get jobs, better oportunities etc. I would never compare my parents to the people that fleed from the Kosov during the Kosovo wars or during the Yugoslavian civil war or well people from Syriah, Lebanon, Jemen etc. I also spoke with many people from Afghanistan and many other refugees and asylum seekers that I worked with. People from Afghanistan for example often well, escape due to beeing persecuted. One person I know was interogated by the Taliban for example because they where looking for his brother who dared to repair a police car in his workshop, which the Taliban hate. Economic reasons definetly play a role, but most people are just happy to get some stability in their live, at least the one I talked to and the majority is actually not looking for exploiting the well-fare state.

They HAVE to be productive members of society
Why?

So it is sad enough you want to limit income but you want to tax what gets in at 91 percent? And you said you do not want to remove all incentives to work?
91% of very wealthy people, a taxation that was at some point already in place - funny enough during a time when the US had some of their highest economic growths and actually introduced many social reforms.

Do you love to missread what I writte or do you just read what you want to read? Nowhere did I say I want to tax medium incomes or that I want to tax all incomes the same way. But the higher the income, the higher the tax. That simple. When it comes to income, you reach a point where you're income is not releated to your work and labour anymore, but the amount of money you gather from interests and returns, not to mention that a large portion of the wealth is also inherited. I quote :"An estimated 35 to 45 percent of wealth is inherited rather than self-made, according to Kopczuk's review of the literature". but no one is talking about 'their' lazy asses doing nothing for the money they 'earned' I guess. Has this neoliberal propaganda penetrated so deep in your minds (no offense meant) that you get triggered so easily by just a few words like higher taxes and maximum wage? Does it mean nothing that even Warren Buffett argues for higher taxes?

No one is talking about making wealthy people in to poor bums or something, but to prevent excessive wealth from accumulating in to the hands of a few, which is also a huge problem politicaly when you look at how much money is dominating politics these days. Does it not bother you even in the slightest how the US is becoming slowly but steadily an oligarchy?

Come on man. The reason why we get the best is because we pay the best. The only way your proposals would work is if EVERY country adhered to the same principles, which I KNOW wouldn't happen. A lot of things like wages is directly tied to competition, both internal and external.
And you really believe that? I don't want to attack you, but honestly people often call me naive but it's always funny to find people that believe we would be living in societies that promote hard work, competition and the like. All it does is creating a selection process, where some people make it trough while the majority doesnt, often for reasons that are comletely out of their controll. This idea of competition as struggle is born in a missrepresented darwinian idea by a neoliberal ideology, I quote (...)Competition among firms has been suggested to reflect the ruthless logic of Darwinian selection: a free market is a struggle for survival, in which successful firms survive and unsuccessful ones die.
However, what does competition actually mean in this context if you think it trough? It would mean that the strong rule over the weak. Survival of the fittest. However, if anyone with an economic degree would actually take their time to read Darwins work, they would realize that this is often not true and not what Darwin was talking about, particuliarly as he wrote, I quote "looking to future generations, there is no cause to fear that the social instincts will grow weaker, and we may expect that virtuous habits will grow stronger, becoming perhaps fixed by inheritance. In this case the struggle between our higher and lower impulses will be less severe, and virtue will be triumphant" - Charles Darwin.

To say it that way, there is zero reason in a capitalist or neo-liberal society for a wealthy person or the owner of a factory to actually pay his workers more than he has to or to do anything to improve their conditions. The goal of anyone in such a society is to make profit, at all costs. And this is what pushed many societies during the 18th century close to revolutions where governments have been forced to privatise and/or split some large companies and to actually get social laws in to action.

We have had past discussions with UBI and I think with %100 automation, it could happen. Otherwise, until that point, your not going to find a lot of enthusiasm for such a project.
Depends on the type of income and the survey, but roughly speaking about half of the population in the western world would be at least open to the idea. In some cases even up to 60%, like if you look at Europe in particular which is a bit more open to the idea than the US.

However, when it comes to the UBI we can not wait till 100% of the workforce is automatized as the automatisation will not happen from one day to the next, but gradualy. More and more people will lose jobs or at the very least be affected due to the higher efficiency from AI, digitalisation and machinery. It could be that in 10 years it's 20% of the workforce that's affected in 30 years maybe 40% and so on. ANd it will happen in some areas sooner while taking more time in others, pretty sure any occupation that includes driving will be done by machines in the near future. We have to find solutions for those people. Or do you think 30% of the population should be left with food stamps and living at the poverty line? What kind of ideological and political polarisation would we be seeing then. I am not saying the US would become the next Nazi regime, but unemployment and economic and political uncertainity was a huge factor for the raise of the Nazis.

We have to think about solutions and how to implement them now, not in 40 years when it's to late.

I believe anyway that it will the rich people in the end that will implement the UBI at some point, that is if they really care about living in a functional society where someone has at least the income to buy the products that generate their wealth without starting a riot every second which is actually the big question in the room.

The bank bailout is not corporate welfare, it was quite simply, WELFARE for everyone.
Yeah, the same companies that now troll Trump and lay of workers. Or do you mean all the people that lost their homes in the housing bubble?

Sorry, I don't believe that even for a second. If you took all the money from the bail outs, and simply threw it out of an airplane over the affected regions, you might have done more for the 'small' man. Most of the money ended up in stabilizing the interests of share holders and company value. Pretty much nothing of that money, went in to the hands of employees or thost that have been victims by the gambling of the financial instutitons.
 
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10% of a billion isn't 10 million.
duh.
But you have a point. Maybe we should start a gofund me page for all those ... poor rich? People that loost 90% of their billion? I am sure we can find someone to donate caviar, gold and such. You don't happen to have a spare yacht lieing around somewhere you don't need? Maybe a rolex with diamonds? It would be appreciated.
You just sound jealous. they have too much money and it isn't fair. Boo-hoo-hoo. Not that you take property taxes or anything into account since that shit would deplete funds rather quickly, because this is about the fair re-distribution of wealth. You might not have earned it, but dammit you DESERVE it.
 
Crni

In a hypothetical situation where a guy is limited to $400k per year, how much do you think he should be taxed then? Remember, in your example, $400k a year means that person is ultra rich.

Corrected. They have to be productive, or at least, not a burden to society by committing crimes, or just generally being a lazy piece of shit (barring situations that are out of their control like mental issues).

Well, SOMEONE had to EARN that money. It doesn't magically grow on trees. Also, wealth is normally built up by generations. So my dad makes a bit of profit. I use that to make more profit, my kid adds on that, so on and so forth.

It depends on how high the tax rate. For the ultra rich, I am more along the lines of a 70-80 percent. Like the post above mentioned, property taxes can be horrendous in the higher levels. Sure there are people who cheat and there bad tax laws, but that doesn't mean amassing wealth is bad, we just need to fix those loopholes.

I am not really for a max salary range because it sounds too much like a punishment. Remember what I said about competitive salaries or did you just gloss over that one?

Again the problem is EXCESSIVE. How would that be defined? Will that also apply to wealth that one INHERITED? So if my dad busted his ass to make money and left me an inheritance, fuck me right?

Lastly, remember our previous chats? Rich people will always be in power. That hadn't changed in Babylon and Mesopotamia, it isn't going to change now.
 
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Crni

In a hypothetical situation where a guy is limited to $400k per year, how much do you think he should be taxed then? Remember, in your example, $400k a year means that person is ultra rich.
Most of it could be left to what it is right now, maybe even lowering it a bit as small and middle incomes are pretty strained right now. Dunno, it did work during the 1950s and 60s before the neo-liberal ideology started to show it's effect during the Reagan years. Apparently someone like Nixcon could be considered a leftist today I assume. I mean he started the EPA after all and even Reagan said, that Social Security is not tied to the deficit. Imagine that.

Corrected. They have to be productive, or at least, not a burden to society by committing crimes.
Again, why?

For some people, as strange as this sounds, doing nothing is already beeing productive. What does productive even mean? Is it not productive to be at home and care for a loved one who's invalid? Or is it not productive to work in charity? Or to raise your children? Or to attend to your garden? Or no clue what people do all day. We have to get away from this idea that productivity can be only found in something that earns you an income.

I hate to say this, but it also means giving people money might prevent them from comtting crimes. I am afraid, it's as simple as that. Like giving money to a drug addict, he might use that money to get drugs yes, but now he won't eventually stab someone to finance his addiction. That's at least a win in my book. And if new studies on the subject can be believed, it might actually even be a good way to solve a lot of reasons for addiction.

You basically pay people to not comitt crimes. It's actually the cheapest thing you can do in the end, if you think about what kind of suffering you can prevent by doing it.​

Well, SOMEONE had to EARN that money. It doesn't magically grow on trees.
And? What's your point. Right now some individuals get most of the money that the majority is earning. How do you think someone like Jack Ma or Gates is making his billions? By sitting in their shops and selling their products to each and every individual buyer?
Again. Any kind of wellfare is not simply a hand out. You buy political, social and economical stability with it, that actually makes EARNING this money possible in the first place.

You also didn't adress the argument I made, what should we do if for example 40% of the jobs dissapear?

I am not really for a max salary range because it sounds too much like a punishment.
The effects of it are to severe to ignore it though, since the US is on it's way to an Oligarchy where money starts to rule over everything. We can not allow the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few individuals alone. I am pretty sure a feudal King or Noble Man would see it as 'punishment' of his birth given rights if a peasant gets the same vote and say in governance as he does. The new ruling class in our society are simply put the very wealthy. And if we don't think about how to distribute this power more evenly, we will run in to serious issues. I am not proposing to cut their heads off or to push them in to poverty here by the way.

Again the problem is EXCESSIVE. How would that be defined? Will that also apply to wealth that one INHERITED? So if my dad busted his ass to make money and left me an inheritance, fuck me right?
I am not talking about people that get a house or even two from their fathers and a few 100.000 dollars. We're talking about very high amounts of money here. Why do I have always to face the same kind of rhetoric/logic that I adressed so many times before?

For the last time. I am not demanding to make wealthy people 'poor' here!
Is your father a billionaire? Or a millionaire? If he is, then he should have taught you how to exist with $100 Million, or $10 Million and
eventually starting your own business/live/whatever with that money. This is probably a better starting point then 99% of the americans will ever experience in their whole life. I thought you guys are about personal responsibility, and not depending on hand-outs.

You just sound jealous. they have too much money and it isn't fair. Boo-hoo-hoo. Not that you take property taxes or anything into account since that shit would deplete funds rather quickly, because this is about the fair re-distribution of wealth. You might not have earned it, but dammit you DESERVE it.

Nice Ad Hominem.

But even if it was true, would that change any of the arguments, studies or research I provided and probably no one cares to read anyway. However, if taking 90% of money away from Billionairs, to fund stuff like infrastructure and public services which is also probaly making me in to a die hard communist, then what are those people that want to take away ALL wealth and privatize every company? First-Blood-Double-Kill-Multi-Kill-Ultra-Kill-Monster-Kill Communists? - Yeah I loved Unreal Tournament!​
Also, I do think that yes every human deserves an income just for existing. That's what you get for watching Star Trek : The Next Generation as a kid. Maybe we should ban it, as leftist propaganda. More people could get the same idea after all.
 
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Technically, splitting global wealth equally is the worst possible solution for the planet. A single billionaire cannot spend all his money effectively, they are dead weight in his assets. Split his money amongst billions of undereducated Africans or Indians who doesn't give a fuck about environment, let every single beggar get the electronics or car he dreamed of, and watch the resources being depleted in a single generation.
 
I just find the idea of some janitor who believes in Anarcho-Communism trying to school people wealth redistribution to be pretty fucking hilarious.
Technically, splitting global wealth equally is the worst possible solution for the planet. A single billionaire cannot spend all his money effectively, they are dead weight in his assets. Split his money amongst billions of undereducated Africans or Indians who doesn't give a fuck about environment, let every single beggar get the electronics or car he dreamed of, and watch the resources being depleted in a single generation.
It is not about doing what is right or smart. it is about doing what is fair. now stop being a greedy asshole and hand over the money!
 
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