Healthcare reform just passed!

[OakTable]

Health care is a basic human right. The bill will result in an overall increase of the number of Americans with access to health care.

That said, America will remain a third world country health-care wise.

Who says healthcare is a human right? Does the U.S. Consitution say it is? Does the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. say it is? Who, sir, says it is?

EDIT: Oops, didn't read that last post. Well, while true, the U.S. did sign that, they haven't implemented it for a while. Why do you think that is?

 

[Professor Danger!]

Health care is a basic human right. The bill will result in an overall increase of the number of Americans with access to health care.

That said, America will remain a third world country health-care wise.

Who says healthcare is a human right? Does the U.S. Consitution say it is? Does the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. say it is? Who, sir, says it is?

Exactly. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn't say healthcare. It doesn't say welfare. It doesn't say taking care of the less fortunate. It's great when people do. Though it isn't a requirement and it's not something that should be forced on people.

Then again, looks like it is.

 

[Professor Danger!]

Health care is a basic human right.

Since when?

Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Adopted in 1948 by the United NAtions, of which the United States continues to be a member. USA voted in favour of the bill and as such accepts the definition of "human rights" as set forth by the documents.

So, yeah, health care is a basic human right. To argue against is, well, sick and inhumane.

Who is all this supposed to be provided from? It's not an American law. It's something the UN passed?

 

[Sander]

Who is all this supposed to be provided from? It's not an American law. It's something the UN passed?

It's something the UN wrote and the USA signed. The USA was probably the most important driving nation behind the formation of the UN and this document.

I appreciate you ignoring my post, though.

Also, use the edit button!

EDIT: Oops, didn't read that last post. Well, while true, the U.S. did sign that, they haven't implemented it for a while. Why do you think that is?

Because the US doesn't much care for it anymore, and it was mostly a political piece to begin with. Just like the 'life, liberty, pursuit of happiness' bit.

Regardless, the US did sign it and acknowledge it, and still does.

By the way, does the lack of health not stand in the way of the 'life and the pursuit of happiness' deal?

 

[CloudlessDruid]

I used the same argument of the bill of human rights in the "american anti comunists?" thread, and it was the same reception haha. Uncle Sam, you have never heard before that you should read the document before signing it?

 

[Tagaziel]

Who is all this supposed to be provided from? It's not an American law. It's something the UN passed?

It's something USA helped create and signed, agreeing to be bound by its definitions. You might not realize it, but America is subject to international laws and agreements, especially ones it signed.

EDIT: Oops, didn't read that last post. Well, while true, the U.S. did sign that, they haven't implemented it for a while. Why do you think that is?

Becaus it's a third world country in terms of health care and its citizens apparently care more about making a rabble than actually fixing the system?

 

[Professor Danger!]

By the way, does the lack of health not stand in the way of the 'life and the pursuit of happiness' deal?

No. You get freedoms, you get to not be murdered for being a human, and you get to pursue your dreams.

It's something USA helped create and signed, agreeing to be bound by its definitions. You might not realize it, but America is subject to international laws and agreements, especially ones it signed.

Why is this pretty much ignored by everyone? Why isn't this brought up when people say that health care is a privilege, not a right?

 

[CloudlessDruid]

Why is this pretty much ignored by everyone?

Everyone?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Universal_Health_Care_World_Map.svg

edit: I understood wrongly and my reply does not make sense. Don't mind it.

 

[Sander]

No. You get freedoms, you get to not be murdered for being a human, and you get to pursue your dreams.

If you get cancer through no fault of your own, then are debt-ridden the rest of your life to pay for the treatment, doesn't that limit your freedom to pursue your dreams?

Why is this pretty much ignored by everyone? Why isn't this brought up when people say that health care is a privilege, not a right?

Because the USA is a relatively self-centered nation that generally holds the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in much higher regard than the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

 

[iridium_ionizer]

I live in the U.S. and have followed the health care legislation for a year now and even before when it was various campaign promises. Although I know that the U.S. health care system needs reform (see my post in a different thread about all of the "concerned people" who want their piece of the pie), I am feel somewhat blasé concerning the new health care overhaul law. The mammoth package includes new taxes, new fines, new subsidies, and maybe a little more regulation, which all amounts to a new series of carrots and sticks to try to get the U.S. population better health care while making it cost less. It is a new machine taken from bits of old machine designs that have been tossed around before. But no one knows how well it will function until we turn it on.

Personally, I would have preferred health care reforms coming through a series of small specific bills (health insurance regulation, tort reform, business requirements) and having Congress voting on each individual component. Also, while I understand that having everyone insured benefits everyone (less ER wait times, less spreading of contagious diseases, preventative medicine, etc.), I still think that the "fine the uninsured" is a bad stick to use to get the machine running well. Maybe a clause to allow people to be uninsured but have to pay in cash for treatment if they did not apply or qualify for the "poverty rate." (Yeah I know that would allow some stupid to die on the sidewalk). Maybe a "saddle up" fee for people who didn't have insurance before and all of a sudden want it for their pre-existing condition (which would still be covered).

Anyhow, I hope it works without too many bugs in the system. And, I hope if Republicans regain control of Congress that they will only take out the provisions that aren't helping give the people of the U.S. better and cheaper health care. And yes, I know that both it is entirely possible that neither will happen - that this new system won't work well or cheaper and that Republicans will only make the new system worse.

 

[the_cpl]

I pay a little bit more taxes, it's not a big deal. How much more? 8%? It's ok. But I really hope the government doesn't plan to spend it on illegal immigrants. If they spend it on homeless US citizens and legal immigrants, it's ok.

Well, I would imagine that people will need to qualify for government sponsored care. They would probably make sure you are a legal at that level. Overall, it makes less and less sense not to give some kind of a legal taxable status to the illegals. Hopefully, immigration reform is next.

The illegals get health care even now. They don't have insurance or any legal documents, but do you know any case about an illegal, who did not get medical treatment? Obama said illegals can't get health care. But they get, already. The system stinks.

 

[Professor Danger!]

No. You get freedoms, you get to not be murdered for being a human, and you get to pursue your dreams.

If you get cancer through no fault of your own, then are debt-ridden the rest of your life to pay for the treatment, doesn't that limit your freedom to pursue your dreams?

Why is this pretty much ignored by everyone? Why isn't this brought up when people say that health care is a privilege, not a right?

Because the USA is a relatively self-centered nation that generally holds the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in much higher regard than the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

1.) Not really. Nothing is a guarantee. Except for liberty. Hell, life isn't either, since you can be murdered. Happiness is definitely not a guarantee. Shouldn't be. Nor should it be handed to people, as it sometimes is. It's not pretty, but sometimes shit happens. Is it really America's fault when people get Cancer or are shot and paralyzed? No. It also should not be the tax payers fault.

Nothing is perfect.

2.) Since when was the UN a sovereign nation? Jesus, i'm happy that I, in America, have my own set of rules. Instead of having all of these other countries sticking their noses into it. Hell, having our government fuck around with our lives on a smaller personal level is bad enough!

The illegals get health care even now. They don't have insurance or any legal documents, but do you know any case about an illegal, who did not get medical treatment? Obama said illegals can't get health care. But they get, already. The system stinks.

Anyone can get treated in the ER, regardless or not of insurance.

 

[SimpleMinded]

I think the challenge with doing it piece by piece is that many of the bigger pieces all relate. I.E. If you allow preexisting condition patients, then you must have the mandate.

Hopefully, now that the big picture has been passed, the democrats and republicans can work together to target smaller pieces of health care reform that will finetune this system further.

 

[Professor Danger!]

I think the challenge with doing it piece by piece is that many of the bigger pieces all relate. I.E. If you allow preexisting condition patients, then you must have the mandate.

Hopefully, now that the big picture has been passed, the democrats and republicans can work together to target smaller pieces of health care reform that will finetune this system further.

I agree. This could be good. I know I've mentioned that health care isn't a right. That doesn't mean that I don't think people should HAVE something like this. It could have been great. If everyone worked together and maybe, waited. Instead of worrying about November.

Hopefully they can work together and fix some things. No more backroom dealings.

 

[Sander]

Personally, I would have preferred health care reforms coming through a series of small specific bills (health insurance regulation, tort reform, business requirements) and having Congress voting on each individual component. Also, while I understand that having everyone insured benefits everyone (less ER wait times, less spreading of contagious diseases, preventative medicine, etc.), I still think that the "fine the uninsured" is a bad stick to use to get the machine running well. Maybe a clause to allow people to be uninsured but have to pay in cash for treatment if they did not apply or qualify for the "poverty rate." (Yeah I know that would allow some stupid to die on the sidewalk). Maybe a "saddle up" fee for people who didn't have insurance before and all of a sudden want it for their pre-existing condition (which would still be covered).

If not everyone has insurance, then the insurance prices go up significantly since the low-risk groups will simply not take insurance. That's the biggest problem with health insurance, and it is a key issue that is getting overlooked as people oversimplify it to 'the poor can't afford health care, so we just give them all the health care!'
By ensuring that everyone has insurance, the cost of insurance will fall.

1.) Not really. Nothing is a guarantee. Except for liberty. Hell, life isn't either, since you can be murdered. Happiness is definitely not a guarantee. Shouldn't be. Nor should it be handed to people, as it sometimes is.

I see you've reduced "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to just liberty. Try not to be a hypocrite when defending those three values and then immediately afterward shooting them down again.

It's not pretty, but sometimes shit happens. Is it really America's fault when people get Cancer or are shot and paralyzed? No. It also should not be the tax payers fault.

It's not about fault. It's about eliminating a problem of randomness. It's not anyone's fault when someone gets cancer, but is it fair if someone has his life ruined because he accidentally contracted a disease?

Oh sure, 'life isn't fair'. But does that mean that humans should not strive to create a fair environment for everyone? This isn't about absolving people of responsibility or giving people a free pass for their actions, it's about allowing people to live their lives in full.

2.) Since when was the UN a sovereign nation? Jesus, i'm happy that I, in America, have my own set of rules. Instead of having all of these other countries sticking their noses into it. Hell, having our government fuck around with our lives on a smaller personal level is bad enough!

As I said, the US is a relatively self-centered nation. You're just reinforcing that point. That isn't a knock on the US, it's just an observation.

But it is generally considered good business to adhere to documents you sign, especially the ones that you helped design and doubly so for the ones that you were the key creator of.

 

[Professor Danger!]

Personally, I would have preferred health care reforms coming through a series of small specific bills (health insurance regulation, tort reform, business requirements) and having Congress voting on each individual component. Also, while I understand that having everyone insured benefits everyone (less ER wait times, less spreading of contagious diseases, preventative medicine, etc.), I still think that the "fine the uninsured" is a bad stick to use to get the machine running well. Maybe a clause to allow people to be uninsured but have to pay in cash for treatment if they did not apply or qualify for the "poverty rate." (Yeah I know that would allow some stupid to die on the sidewalk). Maybe a "saddle up" fee for people who didn't have insurance before and all of a sudden want it for their pre-existing condition (which would still be covered).

If not everyone has insurance, then the insurance prices go up significantly since the low-risk groups will simply not take insurance. That's the biggest problem with health insurance, and it is a key issue that is getting overlooked as people oversimplify it to 'the poor can't afford health care, so we just give them all the health care!'
By ensuring that everyone has insurance, the cost of insurance will fall.

1.) Not really. Nothing is a guarantee. Except for liberty. Hell, life isn't either, since you can be murdered. Happiness is definitely not a guarantee. Shouldn't be. Nor should it be handed to people, as it sometimes is.

I see you've reduced "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to just liberty. Try not to be a hypocrite when defending those three values and then immediately afterward shooting them down again.

It's not pretty, but sometimes shit happens. Is it really America's fault when people get Cancer or are shot and paralyzed? No. It also should not be the tax payers fault.

It's not about fault. It's about eliminating a problem of randomness. It's not anyone's fault when someone gets cancer, but is it fair if someone has his life ruined because he accidentally contracted a disease?

Oh sure, 'life isn't fair'. But does that mean that humans should not strive to create a fair environment for everyone? This isn't about absolving people of responsibility or giving people a free pass for their actions, it's about allowing people to live their lives in full.

2.) Since when was the UN a sovereign nation? Jesus, i'm happy that I, in America, have my own set of rules. Instead of having all of these other countries sticking their noses into it. Hell, having our government fuck around with our lives on a smaller personal level is bad enough!

As I said, the US is a relatively self-centered nation. You're just reinforcing that point. That isn't a knock on the US, it's just an observation.

But it is generally considered good business to adhere to documents you sign, especially the ones that you helped design and doubly so for the ones that you were the key creator of.

I'm getting angry at myself. I can't debate and I can't argue. I'd love to argue that America isn't selfish. But you're right. And i'm happy we are. Sometimes I don't think we're selfish enough. Especially when we try to go about "fixing" things in the world when shit on the homefront isn't fixed.

Regardless, i'm done. At least for now. Too many Conway's Irish Ale. This will be interesting to see where it goes. The fixes and the fights within the government.

 

[Tagaziel]

Danger's posts reek of subconscious fascism. Health care a privilege, not a right? Sick people can go screw themselves? America exempt from international agreements?

Heh. Liberty my arse.

 

[Per]

Danger's posts reek of subconscious fascism.

Libertarianism and fascism are polar opposites.

 

[Santoka]

Who says healthcare is a human right? Does the U.S. Consitution say it is? Does the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. say it is? Who, sir, says it is?

Exactly. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn't say healthcare. It doesn't say welfare. It doesn't say taking care of the less fortunate.

Dudes, stop whining and do what the money says :

Love one another,
Help the helpless,
Give to the poor.

 

[Professor Danger!]

Who says healthcare is a human right? Does the U.S. Consitution say it is? Does the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. say it is? Who, sir, says it is?

Exactly. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn't say healthcare. It doesn't say welfare. It doesn't say taking care of the less fortunate.

Dudes, stop whining and do what the money says :

Love one another,
Help the helpless,
Give to the poor.

What the fuck are you talking about?