Healthcare reform just passed!

[Dracon M'Alkir]

I live in the U.S. and have followed the health care legislation for a year now and even before when it was various campaign promises. Although I know that the U.S. health care system needs reform (see my post in a different thread about all of the "concerned people" who want their piece of the pie), I am feel somewhat blasé concerning the new health care overhaul law. The mammoth package includes new taxes, new fines, new subsidies, and maybe a little more regulation, which all amounts to a new series of carrots and sticks to try to get the U.S. population better health care while making it cost less. It is a new machine taken from bits of old machine designs that have been tossed around before. But no one knows how well it will function until we turn it on.

Personally, I would have preferred health care reforms coming through a series of small specific bills (health insurance regulation, tort reform, business requirements) and having Congress voting on each individual component. Also, while I understand that having everyone insured benefits everyone (less ER wait times, less spreading of contagious diseases, preventative medicine, etc.), I still think that the "fine the uninsured" is a bad stick to use to get the machine running well. Maybe a clause to allow people to be uninsured but have to pay in cash for treatment if they did not apply or qualify for the "poverty rate." (Yeah I know that would allow some stupid to die on the sidewalk). Maybe a "saddle up" fee for people who didn't have insurance before and all of a sudden want it for their pre-existing condition (which would still be covered).

Anyhow, I hope it works without too many bugs in the system. And, I hope if Republicans regain control of Congress that they will only take out the provisions that aren't helping give the people of the U.S. better and cheaper health care. And yes, I know that both it is entirely possible that neither will happen - that this new system won't work well or cheaper and that Republicans will only make the new system worse.

Very well spoken. Exemplary example of how a rational personal approaches matters like this.

 

[Professor Danger!]

I live in the U.S. and have followed the health care legislation for a year now and even before when it was various campaign promises. Although I know that the U.S. health care system needs reform (see my post in a different thread about all of the "concerned people" who want their piece of the pie), I am feel somewhat blasé concerning the new health care overhaul law. The mammoth package includes new taxes, new fines, new subsidies, and maybe a little more regulation, which all amounts to a new series of carrots and sticks to try to get the U.S. population better health care while making it cost less. It is a new machine taken from bits of old machine designs that have been tossed around before. But no one knows how well it will function until we turn it on.

Personally, I would have preferred health care reforms coming through a series of small specific bills (health insurance regulation, tort reform, business requirements) and having Congress voting on each individual component. Also, while I understand that having everyone insured benefits everyone (less ER wait times, less spreading of contagious diseases, preventative medicine, etc.), I still think that the "fine the uninsured" is a bad stick to use to get the machine running well. Maybe a clause to allow people to be uninsured but have to pay in cash for treatment if they did not apply or qualify for the "poverty rate." (Yeah I know that would allow some stupid to die on the sidewalk). Maybe a "saddle up" fee for people who didn't have insurance before and all of a sudden want it for their pre-existing condition (which would still be covered).

Anyhow, I hope it works without too many bugs in the system. And, I hope if Republicans regain control of Congress that they will only take out the provisions that aren't helping give the people of the U.S. better and cheaper health care. And yes, I know that both it is entirely possible that neither will happen - that this new system won't work well or cheaper and that Republicans will only make the new system worse.

Very well spoken. Exemplary example of how a rational personal approaches matters like this.

So people who debate different standpoints aren't rational?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

all this hyperbolic whining from "Americans! Fuck Yeah!" this week is making me ashamed to be an American. the oblivious and miserly quality of so many people in this country disgusts me so much i cannot even fucking believe it. half this country is acting like a spoiled child who is getting one of his 1,000 toys taken away...just throwing fits and screaming in the fucking corner.

the worst part? most of the idiots doing it are simply regurgitating the misinformation their cute little political figureheads are spewing at them from their rage-montors of doom. fuck all of you. i propose a new bill: charge more to the pricks whining. every prick whining about it should have their taxes raised by 1% for every bit of noise pollution they contribute to.

i seriously, from the bottom of my heart, hate every "American! Fuck Yeah!" in this country and almost enjoy your disgust at Universal Health Care as much as i am happy this bill went through.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

So people who debate different standpoints aren't rational?

Not necessarily, no. There can be rational arguments that are very personal arguments. For example, the claim that no government funds should be used for the use of abortions.

The above speaker/poster ("iridium_ionizer") approached it at the best possible observation point. He collected all the evidence, analyzed it, and then came to an informal conclusion. He agreed with certain aspects, and rejected others. Thus, formed a valid, complete opinion. Which I happen to agree with.

 

[Tagaziel]

Danger's posts reek of subconscious fascism.

Libertarianism and fascism are polar opposites.

Dude looped back into fascism.

 

[Professor Danger!]

all this hyperbolic whining from "Americans! Fuck Yeah!" this week is making me ashamed to be an American. the oblivious and miserly quality of so many people in this country disgusts me so much i cannot even fucking believe it. half this country is acting like a spoiled child who is getting one of his 1,000 toys taken away...just throwing fits and screaming in the fucking corner.

the worst part? most of the idiots doing it are simply regurgitating the misinformation their cute little political figureheads are spewing at them from their rage-montors of doom. fuck all of you. i propose a new bill: charge more to the pricks whining. every prick whining about it should have their taxes raised by 1% for every bit of noise pollution they contribute to.

i seriously, from the bottom of my heart, hate every "American! Fuck Yeah!" in this country and almost enjoy your disgust at Universal Health Care as much as i am happy this bill went through.

Wow. You act like the other side doesn't do exactly the same thing. Really the taxes will be raised JUST 1%? What fantasy world are you living in?

This is also NOT universal health care. What are you talking about?

The above speaker/poster ("iridium_ionizer") approached it at the best possible observation point. He collected all the evidence, analyzed it, and then came to an informal conclusion. He agreed with certain aspects, and rejected others. Thus, formed a valid, complete opinion. Which I happen to agree with.

HE did. Yeah. I agree with a bit of what he said. I guess I didn't like the way you put it. No big deal.

Dude looped back into fascism.

I do lean a bit to the right. Although in reality I agree there should be something done about health care. I think I was having a little too much fun backing myself into a corner.

Although I have a feeling that in November, I will be pulling the lever for the fascists.

I'm pretty sick of the many accomplishments of Obama (i.e., ONE).

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

and another thing: where were all these whining assholes while W single-handedly took us from the biggest surplus of all time to the biggest deficit of all time? you really want to fucking whine, let's get down to it, man.

Really the taxes will be raised JUST 1%? What fantasy world are you living in?

learn how to read, Sherlock.

 

[Professor Danger!]

the fuck does this have to do with you misinterpreting my post about 1% exactly? and yes, going from where our budget was to where it stands now is quite possibly one of the greatest failures of our government of all time.

all the people bawwwwing about money seem to overlook this fact. very tidy of them.

So it was smart to spend more money we don't have (i.e., making the people pay) for a reform that wasn't as much a necessity as perhaps maybe getting people some jobs or helping the economy?

Perhaps people aw "bawwwwing" about money because THERE ISN'T ANY.


EDIT: Also, in vatted thing where I refereed to you deleting something: My bad. It was vatted, you didn't delete it. My apologies for insults that resulted from me assuming so.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

So it was smart to spend more money we don't have (i.e., making the people pay) for a reform that wasn't as much a necessity as perhaps maybe getting people some jobs or helping the economy?

maybe you're overlooking some of the reasons why our economy is fucked. like people who cannot afford health care defaulting on their payments and everybody else having to cover for it. our health care system right now is similar to the banking/credit snafu which also lies at the root of the problem. it very well might take a good long time for this situation to fix itself but yes, i do indeed believe this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Professor Danger!]

So it was smart to spend more money we don't have (i.e., making the people pay) for a reform that wasn't as much a necessity as perhaps maybe getting people some jobs or helping the economy?

maybe you're overlooking some of the reasons why our economy is fucked. like people who cannot afford health care defaulting on their payments and everybody else having to cover for it. our health care system right now is similar to the banking/credit snafu which also lies at the root of the problem. it very well might take a good long time for this situation to fix itself but yes, i do indeed believe this is a step in the right direction.

Only this time, when people default, they'll have to deal with the IRS instead of a collection agency that might work with them. Good trade.

Question: Do you want to see the US Government to be the one and only bank as well?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Only this time, when people default, they'll have to deal with the IRS instead of a collection agency that might work with them. Good trade.

how exactly are people going to default on something they're not paying for?

Question: Do you want to see the US Government to be the one and only bank as well?

hell no. don't assume you understand my position in this thing based on my frustrations with the people screaming bloody murder before we give reform a chance. we need this. it has to be done. will it be done perfectly? probably not. our government has too much in-fighting and this bill is already a sad compromise of something which really should have seen the light.

 

[Professor Danger!]

Only this time, when people default, they'll have to deal with the IRS instead of a collection agency that might work with them. Good trade.

how exactly are people going to default on something they're not paying for?

Question: Do you want to see the US Government to be the one and only bank as well?

hell no. don't assume you understand my position in this thing based on my frustrations with the people screaming bloody murder before we give reform a chance. we need this. it has to be done. will it be done perfectly? probably not. our government has too much in-fighting and this bill is already a sad compromise of something which really should have seen the light.

Okay. I've had too many beers to be honest. So my mind is all disjointed. But to cover for myself I will say: Uh, people pay for it through more taxes and will have to face the IRS if they fuck up. In all honestly, I think my mind was on the government taking over student loans in this situation. My bad.

It's hard for me/probably some people to give reform a chance, thanks to how well known the government is at taking care of business. It's usually not good. As I said before, I'm for SOME reform. I think in a perfect world, this would have taken longer to put together, to be a little closer to perfect. NOT put together during back room discussions to get this passed before November because we think we will lose the majority. Sorry for assuming shit. Probably the alcohol. WTF. Alcohol doesn't make me punch people, it makes me so far right i'm a fascist.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Uh, people pay for it through more taxes and will have to face the IRS if they fuck up. In all honestly, I think my mind was on the government taking over student loans in this situation. My bad.

see, but my point is that we are ALREADY paying for major, major debts and defaults with our taxes and nobody is getting ANYTHING out of it. this way, hopefully...in the future, we all contribute to something real. to people getting help. everybody. no more insurance companies dropping people when things get too complicated or expensive. no more "we can't help you because of pre-existing conditions". can you imagine if you found out you have cancer...but have had it for a long time and didn't know about it? and you get denied coverage because of this? that's inhumane!

Alcohol doesn't make me punch people, it makes me so far right i'm a fascist.

i am neither right nor left. i try to calmly dissect any given situation based on what the reality of this country needs, in my own opinion. and what this country needs, is accountability for it's accrued debts. and one of the first building blocks is to take away the companies allowing these debts...THRIVING on these debts.

EDIT: though i admit my first post in this thread was anything but calm. these last few days have made me so sick to my stomach it all just came out. apologies for that one.

 

[Professor Danger!]

Uh, people pay for it through more taxes and will have to face the IRS if they fuck up. In all honestly, I think my mind was on the government taking over student loans in this situation. My bad.

see, but my point is that we are ALREADY paying for major, major debts and defaults with our taxes and nobody is getting ANYTHING out of it. this way, hopefully...in the future, we all contribute to something real. to people getting help. everybody. no more insurance companies dropping people when things get too complicated or expensive. no more "we can't help you because of pre-existing conditions". can you imagine if you found out you have cancer...but have had it for a long time and didn't know about it? and you get denied coverage because of this? that's inhumane!

Alcohol doesn't make me punch people, it makes me so far right i'm a fascist.

i am neither right nor left. i try to calmly dissect any given situation based on what the reality of this country needs, in my own opinion. and what this country needs, is accountability for it's accrued debts. and one of the first building blocks is to take away the companies allowing these debts...THRIVING on these debts.

EDIT: though i admit my first post in this thread was anything but calm. these last few days have made me so sick to my stomach it all just came out. apologies for that one.

I hope that happens. But I feel that we need quite a few "fizes" to this bill to see anything like that. I would like it though. I've mentioned a few times about how all this isn't a "right", I don't mean it wouldn't be nice. Hell, if this was all great and perfect, it would be pretty sweet. However, we're talking the US government here. It's hard to rely on them.

Well, now you're talking about banks. I'd ask you how you'd take care of that, but it's not what this topic is about. And it would probably get vatted. But I kinda agree. Maybe. I just think that should have been talked before any healthcare reforms. Especially a healthcare bill as broken and watered down as this.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Especially a healthcare bill as broken and watered down as this.

it became watered-down because of Republican boycotting! aside from vetoing and boycotting they offered no solutions and merely bawwwwed at how this was going to "DESTROY AMERICA!!!1!"

 

[OakTable]

Oh no, not the Republicans! Those dastardly bastards who also want healthcare reform but in a different way! They'll ruin our poorly implemented plans to tax the middle class some more.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh no, not the Republicans! Those dastardly bastards who also want healthcare reform but in a different way! They'll ruin our poorly implemented plans to tax the middle class some more.

now, see...you might want to read all of a guy's posts before you sneak up behind him and kick him in the nuts.

i'm neither a democrat nor a republican and think poorly of both parties. if the republicans had proposed a plan (which they haven't, if you'd not noticed) and the democrats shot it down into a less potent state, i'd be criticizing them instead. i think our two party system is a sham full of impotent and greedy misers and most libertarians' general conservatism and self-righteousness annoys the piss out of me. in fact, one of the only people i could possibly enjoy listening to regarding politics and possibly align myself with is Noam Chomsky.

Noam Chomsky for Prez!!!

 

[victor]

So, uh, no-one replied to my question on the first page. I think it's relevant to the subject, so I'll post it again.

I don't get it. Why not make illegal immigrants legal? Most of them have jobs, right? And if they have jobs, they could pay taxes. If language is a problem, I'm sure most of them learn English eventually.

This isn't a trolling attempt, I just really don't understand the logic.

As I wrote, what's standing in the way of legalizing more immigrants, maybe even making some of them citizens? If you make them pay taxes they won't be such an apparent load on a healthcare system. Or is it that they don't ]i]want[/i] to be legalized, since they plan to return to their home country and are in the US only to work. If that's the case they wouldn't want to pay taxes.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

taking jobs away from already legal citizens. we already have too many people and not enough jobs. you bring in people willing to work for less...shit. might as well start bringing in machines.

 

[victor]

Don't most of them have jobs already? And why would they work for less if they're citizens?

If the goal is to go more towards a Western European-type society then maybe you need to define that workforce. A universal healthcare system doesn't really work if not everyone is included.