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TorontoReign
Guest
Deer around here are like rabbits. You want to introduce a shitload of mountain lions after them? How is that any better than thinning the population down every year? If anything you put people at risk.
Hunt Mutants & Raiders
- Thread starter Cistern Logic
- Start date
Animals in the wild go extinct all the time, it's how new species are formed, the previous one either die out, or "transform" over time (usually through break-away populations)
But yes, once the damage is done, and there is a man-made unbalance, it does seem necesary to once a year check the population of herbivores, especially in boreal climates. Norway has almost no natural predators left, and that is all man-made, meaning the solution will be to watch the resulting disaster unfold - or try to remedy it (by taking up the "role" of the predator)
But yes, once the damage is done, and there is a man-made unbalance, it does seem necesary to once a year check the population of herbivores, especially in boreal climates. Norway has almost no natural predators left, and that is all man-made, meaning the solution will be to watch the resulting disaster unfold - or try to remedy it (by taking up the "role" of the predator)
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TorontoReign
Guest
There are no natural predators here to take out coyotes or deer either as you say. I can't count how many times I have almost been killed by deer crossing the road here. I have hit one relatively recently. Once again things aren't the same all over the world folks. We don't have wolves in Oklahoma. There are hardly any mountain lions. People have been hunting deer for a long time. This isn't like dumbass poachers killing off all the Buffalo. We have people that go around making sure hunters aren't wiping out all the wildlife during hunting season.
Cistern Logic
Assistant to Dr. Mobius
They're considered varmints here in the Valley (AZ). I brake for 'em, but lots of folks make 'em road kill or shoot 'em dead before they raid their hen house or knock over the trash can. My dog barks and snarls at 'em but she's immunized for rabies. My wife, kids and myself on the other hand..... Luckily, they're pretty skittish.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Colombia's extreme biodiversity has ensured that we don't need to go hunting to prevent ecological disasters, we have Jaguars and Deers and shit. Doesn't stop people from still doing it, but because guns are so expensive to get here it isn't as popular. After a quick Google search it seems we also have a rather large Dog breeding society too aparently, my current dog is even a Basset Hound who spends all her time doing nothing. Maybe I should look into how expensive setting up one of those dog breeding centers is, my family owns land I could do it.
If the mountain lion was native to your area. Sure. Why not. I heard people in California actually co-exist peacefully with crocs. And the mountain Lion is actually not even as dangerous like a croc to humans. So I don't see why it can't work as a form of land restoration.
Look, of course I am not saying, hey! Lets take a potentially dangerous predator, throw a couple 1000 of them in the middle of a towns square in a place where they never actually existed and see what happens!
But what speaks against repopulating relatively wild areas - or do your hunters go hunting in the town centres? With the predators that actually existed in those areas, like wolves, bears and the like. And at the same time educating the public about those animals.
It can work, and it does work. In Germany many areas actually see wolves returning, mainly areas that border Poland. The restrictive laws which protect them also helps. The Wolves was a very common animal here in Germany, but it got killed by hunters 100 of years ago and they hunted it to extinction. But with better laws all across Europe they slowly start to repopulate areas. Most of the predators are actually misunderstood anyway and if treated correctly not really a danger to most humans. Of course some caution has to be taken. Bears might not work in every area, they are highly territorial and they would most probably attack humans if they get to close, particularly the Grizzly. But even in areas where you have bears and tourists attacks are not the norm. If predators have cubs, things can change. But in that sense, even a boar with young can be just as dangerous to a hunter or any trespasser, if you get to close.
If you really have areas with a lot of deer than I think their natural predators could thrive there as well without to many issues. Because I somehow have my doubts that they populate the inner cities like pigeons or something. But obviously things have to be checked for each area individually. There is a reason why those creatures breed like rabbits, and I am pretty sure that hunters have something to do with that as well.
After a quick google search it seems that the wolf was a native predator to Oklahoma:
The last wolves in Oklahoma disappeared in the 1930's. The elimination of bison in the mid to late 1800's and the collapse of deer populations in the 1900's along with hunting of wolves for bounty payments led to their elimination. In the early 1800's and before, though, they were common throughout the state. When author Washington Irving crossed through Oklahoma with a band of hunters, wolves were frequently encountered. In this passage which occurred near the Cimarron River, Irving writes: (...)
Let us not forget that predators keep them self in check as well if they compete with each other over food. While the coyote is not necessarily the diet of wolves they still compete with each other. And wolves do sometimes kill coyotes.
Now if Oklahoma is ready to get something like the wolf back in substantial numbers? I have no clue. Like I said, those kind of things would require extensive research. But if it works for Germany, than it can eventually work for Oklahoma because Germany is one of the most densely populated areas in Europe. With saying that, it of course doesn't come without its problems. That is obvious, but those are mainly problems that concern farmers, sheep holders and in general those that have livestock outside. But even here, we can and we should learn to co-exist with those animals that have populated those areas once.
I am not saying we can nor that we should fix everything, most of the time we create to many problems that way. But giving nature ways to do it by it self and create a sustainable and natural ecosystem isn't a bad start. Maybe the issue will sort itself out, since there are already many laws protecting the predators as I believe it is illegal in Oklahoma to kill mountain Lions except if your life is in clear danger.
But people very often forget that the lobby of hunters is quite strong and popular. And often enough hunters create the problems they claim to solve. At least in some areas. I am not talking about every hunter as individual nor that every hunting community acts like that, that's silly. But there are enough hunter communities that keep deer population artificially high during winter seasons so that they have enough targets to shoot in the following year. This is after all an industry. I am not against hunting in general. Just saying. There are always several sides to a story and many different interests to keep in mind.
And predators like the wolf, mountain lion, bear etc. pose a very clear competition and economical threat to some. With populations that keep themself more or less in check, hunting will be obvously severely restricted. And famers like sheep owners have a high interest to paint predators like the wolf as a highly dangerous animal. Even though the danger is more real to their finances than to human life since they would have to now take non deadly measures like new fences.
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ninjacapo
First time out of the vault
Kony 2012
ninjacapo
First time out of the vault
Juza The Cloud
Nanto Goshasei
That sounds divine. When I was studying abroad in Europe (Czech Rep) I used to eat fried cheese patty sandwiches from a food stall in Prague. Little mustard, some pickles and onions it was awesome.
ninjacapo
First time out of the vault
that sound unreal and i need it now. i was never one for fried twinkies or oreos or anything but i cannot pass up fried cheese curds or cheese fries. ill eat them both until im absolutely sick.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
WHAT??? WOW you hear a ton of bullshit and are too damn quick to take it for fact. We do NOT a thing of the sort! California is NOT a marshland. We don't have rivers and lakes all over the place. We don't have the ecosystem FOR crocodiles to even exist in. And yet you hear that we "peacefully coexist" with them? Wow... just wow.
We DO "peacefully coexist", to some degree, with coyotes and mountain lions. But that's it. However, it should be noted that Southern California and Northern California have VASTLY different climates, geographies, and circumstances, not to mention the average environment for any given city varies drastically ALL over the entire state. We have some deer, in a few locations across the state, but nothing like what Toront described to the point of them being road hazards. They just don't have the populations around the state to present any problem. (Consequently, there isn't any seasonal hunting here, either.) L.A. Country, for instance, has virtually no interaction with wildlife, because it's sea level, valley, and urban. But 50 Miles East and you've got some relatively mountainous and hilly zones where your average city-goer has a somewhat regular encounter with coyotes. They're pests, around where I live, but they're very minor problems. On rare occasion you'll get mountain lions descend from the hills and some panicked residents will call the police and shortly animal control shoes up to knock it out, capture it, and release it back into the wild in the hills where it belongs. On VERY rare occasions, the same happens with bears. California has a very varied set of environments because of how massive the size of the state is, so some of us live around very different wildlife than many others of us.
But the ONLY aquatic reptilians we have around here live in zoos. I wouldn't call that "peaceful coexistence". That's like saying we peacefully coexist with giraffes and lions, cause we have them in zoos here, too.
He probably meant Florida (or Louisiana). I mean, it ends with "a" as well...
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
Considering the absurdity of the rest of his suggestion? I highly doubt it.
Moosick
cats
tbh I wouldn't call mankind's relationship with any non-domesticated species to be 'peaceful coexistence' in the grander scheme. Perhaps on an individual level but collectively we kill and shave down numbers like nothing else. Except maybe tobacco to flies.
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My initial point before nature preservation was brought up, was local culture. Many "sub-rural" cultures still hold on to hunting as a tradition. These will often hunt just one kill at the time, like Norwegian moose-hunters, and they will be respectful about it, mostly because it's gonna take an effort to get that kill - it's not a safari, animals aren't parading in front of them, they have to hunt them down.
Many of these will then SAY it's about "preservation" in order to not get shit thrown at them, and I understand that. I dislike the lie, I wish they could be honest and say "look... my dad took me hunting when I was little - it's just something I love to do now and then... " but unfortunately, it's difficult to say that and get away with it, especially in a safe urban setting. So they say it's for helping nature, or something.
Which it kindov is.
At the same time as it isn't. Obviously, it's gonna depend on who and where.
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Well I am not saying all Hunters just want to preserve nature, but legal hunting is made for the propouse of controlling population of certain species. That's why it is managed by seasons and if someone decides to start hunting animals off season they will be fined and maybe even prosecuted. I don't doubt some people just like shoting at deer, but the reason this is allowed (at certain points of the year) is to prevent ecological disasters.
No I haven't and the name alone just makes me wanna puke. No offense. I don't dislike cheese but I don't like it so much that I could eat it on it's own. Let alone eat it fried....
No I haven't and the name alone just makes me wanna puke. No offense. I don't dislike cheese but I don't like it so much that I could eat it on it's own. Let alone eat it fried....
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Yes, Florida, no clue why I had California in mind. Been watching a few Arnold movies laterly. Maybe that's why
Thing is the Croc was in serious need of help in Florida/Lousiana at some point, it saw a lot of protection and things changed. Now the Croc has become so common that there are people runing around catching crocs that happen to land in pools and gardens. Thing is, we can learn to live with those animals peacefully. I find the idea that they went extinct just because we can not adapt pretty sad. I mean we are the animals with the bigger brain after all ...
I would not say that, as species? Most probably. But there are communities that manage to co-exist more or less peacefully with large predators. Like I said, Florida. And soon enough Germany with Wolves (I hope ...). We don't even have to change THAT much in the end. Just taking a bit more care.
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SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
That's a very short-sighted perspective. As a species we CONTROL the numbers of other species, because we need them in order to exist. We need food, we have the capacity to artificially control (some of) their numbers so we can continue to have food, so we do. We don't just kill other species, we PRODUCE numbers in populations of other species, specifically because it's good for us. To say that we do nothing but destructive tendencies or to imply that is simply misanthropic. We're not some kind of blight, we're another organism living in a single biosphere. Just because we're sitting at the top of the food chain doesn't mean we're systematically destroying the chain. That would just kill us off if we did. SOME people are this empty-headed, sure, but not us as a whole as a species.
Have more faith in your fellow mankind.
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TorontoReign
Guest
Crni, I am a bit lazy and pressed for time so this will be brief. Introducing wolves to Oklahoma (I was aware they once resided here, as they once did over large portions of the US) would be harmful to the wildlife already here now. My concern is mainly for farmers and their livestock. Since agriculture is such a big part of the state I'm not sure how they would go about it - most of the nice plots of land are snatched up by ranchers and farmers. Wolves were a threat to settlers at one point so I understand why people felt the need to protect their land and animals back then. Frankly our state is too fucking poor to do anything like you suggest. Even if we could I'm not sure the Republicans give a shit. Haha.
Moosick
cats
Eh, considering the number of species that have been directly (excessive + unnecessary hunting for food, sport, culls, etc) and indirectly (excessive + unnecessary infringement on habitats, total interruption of food chains in general, deforestation, industrial waste, etc), the general torture-fest that is the meat and dairy industry and the insane climate changes that have occurred as a direct result of our industrialisation, I'd say our impact on other species (and our presence on Earth in general) has become little more than a plague in the larger sense. We're driving the Earth to extremes and burning down all of the resources we need most to survive. In the long run it's likely to be irreparable if we don't make serious changes.
Not to say I dislike humanity. As shown in our past discussions on politics I'm quite the idealist when it comes to welfare and rights, to basic needs for survival, from each according to his ability, etc etc etc. I'm just critical of how blatantly negative our impact on this planet, and on other species, has been.
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