I think Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 2
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Well I would not say "that" exactly ... but its more the constant ignoring of the modding community and their concerns and a lot of people think that Bethesda is holy for their "construction sets" or something as like those would be the real developer tools (infact they are not, they are not quite completely the same).Public said:
...mainly because Bethesda usually piss all over them
I am thinking more about the Unreal modding contest 'make something Unreal' which in its end-phase even made games like Red Orchestra possible! Or somilar. Like the Unreal map tutorial you got with the Unreal 2k4 special edition! Which had tons of videos about the map editor.
You really really don't need maxed char to do that.
They are actually very supportive of the mod community.Public said:
...mainly because Bethesda usually piss all over them
Anyway, I think that FO2 is the best in the series when it comes to gameplay, but I enjoyed 1 and 3 more for some reason. I think the second was too much of a rehash for me. If I played the second game first, then I would probably like it more than the others.
And in which way ?Dionysus said:They are actually very supportive of the mod community.Public said:
...mainly because Bethesda usually piss all over them
...
They are not really supportive but they also dont decreasing the modders. They well actualy just do ... nothing. And to release a "construction set" is really neither much complicated work (like Bethesda likes to tell) and its as well not anything special today.
Bethesda was always a company with a very big distance to the customer and rather cold relation with the community. They throw sometimes a bone out and people react toward it like it would be a 5 star meal with 10 courses or something.
People make the mistake to see what Bethesda is doing usualy (nothing) and then exagerate of course if they decide to do something. But one should compare what they do with other companies in similar situations. Like Epic or Blizzard for example and a few others.
Well, if they were really interested in pissing all over the mod community, then they probably wouldn't release mod tools and interview modders on their company blog. I'm not saying that they are the most supportive, but they've released mod tools for all of their recent games, which is better than the norm.Crni Vuk said:
as I said already several times ... they dont "piss" over the mod community or anything. They just more or less "ignore" it. Its there. Nothing more. That simple.Dionysus said:
Support of the modding community is not just releasing some tools, which has become a standart by many companies. And to release this tools is not hard work either. Regardless what Bethesda said in their marketing attempts. It just isnt that way.
If you want to see real support of modding look over to Epic and their "make something unreal contest"
Alphadrop
A right proper chap.
Or Bioware releasing extra models and scripts in their patches of NWN2 and NWN to help modders, as well as developers often (well compared to other companies) showing up on the forums to offer advice.
Beth by comparison release a rather buggy CS after being rather tetchy about the whole thing.
Beth by comparison release a rather buggy CS after being rather tetchy about the whole thing.
AFAIK, Bioware has made one game with mod tools. That's what I'm talking about. I don't think Jade Empire, Mass Effect, or KotOR had any mod support from the developer. Mod tools are not the norm or the industry standard. Bethesda isn't ignoring the community when they post features and interviews on their blog. Starting with Morrowind, they have been pretty good about this sort of thing, and it's a little silly to suggest otherwise.Alphadrop said:
^ Both NWN games had mod tools released. Witcher had mos tools released. Strategy games like Heroes of Might and Magic have historically been released with map editors.
As for the features and interviews on Beth's blog, I call it PR, or if you will, advertizing.
As for the features and interviews on Beth's blog, I call it PR, or if you will, advertizing.
So since 2000, Bioware is 1 for 6. I'm not saying that BGS is setting records here, but they have established a good reputation. You can recite a bunch of other games that included mod tools, but that doesn't mean anything. You have to think about all of the games as a whole and consider the average level of mod support. It's ridiculous to cherry-pick NWN and ignore the fact that it's Bioware's only game with notable mod support.Ausdoerrt said:
NWN and NWN2 are two separate gsmes on two different engines, BTW. Oblivion and FO3 are on the same engine.
You know, just fyi.
The average level of mod support for RPGs and strategy games is pretty good. You need to realize that certain types of games cannot have tools released. For example, tools for Mass Effect would be pretty hard to integrate, etc. Making tools for gamebryo is pretty easy, and the point here was that Beth is (like you said) is no setting the record, and simply making mod tools does no count for good fan relations.
You know, just fyi.
The average level of mod support for RPGs and strategy games is pretty good. You need to realize that certain types of games cannot have tools released. For example, tools for Mass Effect would be pretty hard to integrate, etc. Making tools for gamebryo is pretty easy, and the point here was that Beth is (like you said) is no setting the record, and simply making mod tools does no count for good fan relations.
We are not talking here abotu actoins from individuals. When was the last time Bethesda as company did something specificaly for the "modding" scene apart from providing the construction kits.Dionysus said:
Talking about a "blog" and some interviews with featuers that will be in the game anyway is not a support in my eyes. Support, real support to the modders is a bit more then just that.
From what I heard so far it is even that way that Fallout 3 containts almost the exact same kind of "issues" modders were runing already in to in Oblivion ...
As said. As company Bethesda is pretty much more or less accepting the fact that a modding scene for their game exists. But nothing more.
I'm referring to Beth's official blog (which I believe is run by their community manager). It features certain mods and has interviews with modders.Crni Vuk said:
Really? You don't think that developer-provided mod tools facilitate mod development? I don't remember the mod scene for Daggerfall being nearly as robust as the mod scene for Morrowind. I don't think there would be as much of a mod community without Beth's support.Crni Vuk said:
Again this is public relations. Interviews, showing mods etc. I am talking about "real" support. Interaction between modders and developers! Talking about issues with the engine, listening to the issues suggestoins of the modding community. They get constantly "ignored" by Bethesda. Just like they tend to ignore their usual fans and include a character named M'aiq (or something).Dionysus said:
I wonder why Petitions are not allowed over the official Bethesda forum anymore though ... *cough* ... censorship ... *cough*
Where did I said it makes it not easier? And are you serously comparing the same kind of support some almost 15 year old game received with a title released in 2008? or 2005. Dont be ridiculous.Dionysus said:
What Bethesda is doing is barely higher then standart. And exactly that is the issue. Bethesda always constnatly is focusing on the lowest common denominator and doing anything to avoid a sitution that might even have the smallest impact on sales and back out anything at the slightest provocation. Not just with this but with their games and the gameplay as well. Mod tools? If the "voice" of the people would not have been big enough about it they would never even have bothered about it. Have you not noticed the big deal everyone made out of the construction set cause of consoles, Microsoft and what not else with content and the DLC and such. Literaly everday a new threat was done. As like this has ever been a issue in the past or ever interfered with the PC versions. To me this sounds more like the community was "beging" to Bethesda to get the tools out.
If one has not realised yet that when it comes to marketing everything inside of Bethesda has a reason he's blind.
If you want to know what is "real" support, you should take examples of other companies that not only just throw the mod tools out to the community like a bone that remained from the last dinner. They release "special editions" (Epic) of their games, that include ours of tutorials, samples, suggestions or models and aditional animations and much more. You have constant interactions with some games between the modders and the community where the developers give hints, suggestions and sometimes even help with chats!
Go ask Gizmo what he received as answer when he asked Emil about "support" for moders in the future. All he asked was about if they [Bethesda] could include in the DLC a simple small "spech" for important NPCs like your Father or Lyons. I quote him directly :
Code:
What I mean is... Do the devs' expect modders to make maps, quests, write scripts, write full blown total conversions or just tweaks?
If its new NPC's and quests, then having a "[b]Please speak with my assistant for details[/b]" line for at least a few official NPC's would allow modders to add a custom quest giving NPC and add a custom question to a major character like Lucas Sims that leads into it. Like...And this was as well asked all over the forum now and then. But you never can expect anything more then a "standart" answer from them that they have no control over what people would do with the modding tools. I seen a lot of mods and professional moders and had enough contanct with them [they had experience of professional gamedevelopers!] and in comparison with other companies the relation Bethesda hase with their communities is extremly reserved. More then it is usual for a company.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Providing mod tools for every game isn't supporting the mod community or having good relations with them. Yes, NWN is the only Bioware developed game with mod tools (that I know of) but Bioware has been pretty good to their mod community, adding tools and options when there is demand. No, they aren't perfect, NWN still has a black box that requires pretty extensive programing knowledge to reach into (Red Golem [professional programmer] is the only person I know of doing it to a large extent, back when he made Abyss 404) but they interact with the community, implement much of what is asked for, and are pretty straight about what they will not allow to be edited.Dionysus said:
Modding and the community around it for NWN isn't just a gimmick, it's something that they relied on for selling the game and improving it over time.
Or hey, let's look at what Valve offers. Their SDK allows you to create an entirely new game using just the engine and not only do they support the mod community, they hire the good modders and buy the rights to their mod. They also patch problems with it as they crop up so that modders don't have to work with broken tools.
I get what you are saying, but my point is that they don't simply accept the mod community, and they certainly don't piss all over the mod community. They fostered their mod community. They are, in-part, responsible for the mod community.Crni Vuk said:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are just kidding around.UncannyGarlic said:
It would be nice if we could stop to move in circles. If you would not have a friendly behaviour I would be almost inclined to say that you want to put words in my and other peoples mouth. But I have the feeling this is not your intention. We should not mention "piss all over the mod community" again as I and others already said clearly that this is definetly not the issue. I would even defend Bethesda here in this case. They definetly never would intetionaly "piss over" any community, for that they have to much fear of hurted sales [see Japanese Fallout 3 version ...]Dionysus said:
But to get on this topic. There is still no real argument that implies Bethesda would in any way "care" about their mod community more then usual. More then "oh they are costumers and give money". That is how Bethesda cares about all their communities. It is something that can not be seen easily, you need to read between the lines, and follow their attitude toward communities, and their own games like the baning of RPG codex from their official boards for example [only typing rpgcodex.com is already cencored], the way how the star trekk community was treated by Bethesda or their politic around patches for Oblivion and the way how Emil moved around in this board, you can still search for his comments here. I think a few at Bethesda just took it personaly how Oblivion was reviewed here.
All this together with the "marketing" effords of Bethesda just suggests that they do not care more about modders then they care about any usual group of "potential" costumers which is just no support in any way. You have to see and interact with moders and professional developers to understand what real support is about. Mod-tools are a start, but they are just the bare minimum. Now no one can accept from Bethesda a support for the mod comunity of course but anyone can also not claim that they do support them when actualy almost no kind of interaction exists.
As said, and here again if one can not provide more then "blog entries" and the one or other interview then we can not talk about mod-comunity support.
There is no need to defend Betehsda with things they just dont do.
But he [garclic] is right. Such things have become today a pretty widely accepted standart by gamers and companies alike to release tools. Now it is not officialy "demanded" but it reached a point were some games go up and down with content and modders! Troikas Vampire is the best example of it.Dionysus said:
I am going so far to even say Oblivion would never have been so long around without mods and Valve never had such a high succes without Counterstrike and Day of Defeat which atracted a hell lot of people that would not have bought eventualy HL1 or HL2 in the first place.