Is the US a shitty place to live?

I love it how the Americans act so independent and different to Europe. More then fucking half of you have ties in Europe or originate in Europe. EVERY FUCKING WHITE GUY in America has a line from Europe because the White American came FROM Europe. I can't see how having the right to have guns is good (from the fucking 17 hundreds no less). The problem is that guns are so widespread you can't just ban them! Because there will still be millions of weapons around the States. So I doubt America is going to deal with its gun problem anytime soon.
 
All I said was "gun culture" and you went off on a spiel about how Europeans don't understand the US and then veered off into railing against anti-gun crazies in the very next post when I pointed out that the ubiquity of guns is part of the problem. It's that kind of overreaction to anything to do with being critical of gun culture that is everywhere in the US, especially in the political realm.

If the success of your system relies on the elimination of human error, your system is irrevocably broken. That's why people harp on gun safety constantly, but 505 people died from accidental gun discharges in the US in 2013. That's why suicide rates skyrocket when people have access to guns -- because that method of killing yourself is the least subject to human error, and suicides are often impulsive decisions that those who survive regret making.

But let's be clear here: it's not just human error that's the problem. Anyone who can get his ass to a gun show or find a private seller can buy a gun legally in most states, no questions asked. Anyone who lives in a house where one person owns a gun, can get his hands on one and use it in a shooting. If you live in the US and you want to get your hands on a gun, it's pretty damn easy regardless of whether or not you can pass a background check.

And all of that is caused by gun culture in the US: the widespread feeling of entitlement to the ownership of a deadly weapon that serves no real purpose in modern-day life, and the moral panic when anyone suggests that maybe some limits would be healthy for society in general.
It's not entitlement. The right to bear arms is a foundation of the United States, caused by the British doing what anti-gun people are trying to do now: blanket ban tools that are (for some, even today) essential for survival.
 
And Tim grabbed a gun from his father, to use it to kill people. Agree with ya there. Anytime a gun in a home is un-secured, its a recipe for disaster.

I went on a spiel about Europe because it was supposed to be added as an edit on a different post, that YOU deleted. I figured you got annoyed so I added it as an edit to said previous post.

Sander, its suicide. These folks have mental issues and they need help. People can just as easily OD, hang themselves, bleed out, etc, etc. But yes, I know you will dis-agree.


Can better regulations be passed? Sure. Maybe if the gun crazies didn't turn every attempt at legislation into an all out ban frenzy, we might get shit done. As Akratus said about presenting ones points, delivery is important.

Crni,

And I explained metal detectors. Sometimes it is a product of JUST one shooting, sometimes not at all. IMO, its overkill but I respect other peoples rights to theirs as well. In Arizona, we do not have this issue and we are FAR less regulated than in other parts like California and New York.

I believe I have already made my position on gun culture clear.

I am not insulting you. I am merely copying the sarcastic smugness you and company often display. A water situation in Michigan is bad so the entire fucking country is a wasteland ALA Mad Max. We have a few bad apples in the police and its a fucking POLICE STATE. We ignore significant amounts of data regarding population, dietary and cultural differences between nations in regards to healthcare reform because we have a desperate need to prove SOCIALISM will solve everything. The OP fucking post SCREAMS TROLL.

The same goes for geo-political issues. The minute I start throwing in info that does not conform to your circle jerk, you guys get all frustrated. Sorry I ruined your back patting, anti U.S. stances.

The ONLY thing I agree with you is that we, as the sole world superpower, have made mistakes. I have been clear on this in regards to Iraq and Afghanistan. But I have ALSO elucidated on how geo-politics is very problematic and when you have friends, you often have to give their interests a higher priority than others. You can disagree. After all, I live in the US. and I favor a strong U.S./NATO policy. Gonzalez, LA, and Dr. Fallout happen to live in places that have bad blood with the U.S. and their interests differ, that's fine.

I don't want competitors to the west. I made that point SPECIFICALLY with the 67 million dead. And that was only from the world wars. I haven't even mentioned the deaths that resulted from ALL the continental wars on the euro mainland pre WW1, or any proxy shit that happened. I mentioned the cold war and the proxy fights that got a shitload of people killed. This got no clearer when I told LA or was it Dr, that I am FOR a one world government. Agree to disagree.

So if you want to argue different points fine. But to try and argue that the CPC or Russia would be a better hegemon, or that they would be better MORALLY, is laughable and asinine. To quote an agreement with Dr. Fallout, we are ALL assholes, size is irrelevant. Had the soviets won the cold war, they would be just as, if not, much bigger douchebags.
 
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@Dr Fallout: America is pretty different from Europe. Ethnicity is not the same as culture or policy.

It's not entitlement. The right to bear arms is a foundation of the United States, caused by the British doing what anti-gun people are trying to do now: blanket ban tools that are (for some, even today) essential for survival.
That's still entitlement. Entitlement is not inherently unjustified, though I think trying to justify the right to bear arms with references to a violent revolution against a colonial power 250 years ago is pretty damn weak footing.

DarkCorp said:
Sander, its suicide. These folks have mental issues and they need help. People can just as easily OD, hang themselves, bleed out, etc, etc. But yes, I know you will dis-agree.
Those other methods fail a large percentage of the time, especially the methods that people who don't have access to guns choose. In addition, they take a lot more preparation than just pulling a trigger, which means that folks have a lot more time to think it over. The decision to commit suicide is often impulsive and the impulse is often temporary. If a suicidal person does not have access to a gun, they are far more likely to survive and continue to live their lives -- often happily, or as happy as people get.

We know this because there's a bunch of research into the issue. Mother Jones sums up a bunch of it here. My favorite bit of research is that when Israel banned soldiers bringing guns home, suicides among soldiers fell by 40 percent. In the states, some 21,000 people die of gun suicides per year. A 40% decrease would mean 8,400 fewer dead people per year.

Access to guns kills people, through accidents and suicides -- we haven't even gotten to possible increases in the deadliness of violent encounters yet. None of this should be surprising: of course access to more efficient killing tools will cause more people to die. The question is whether those lives lost are worth the access to those killing tools. That's a policy question I'd answer with "no" and you'd answer with "yes" -- but we need to be very clear on the costs before we can actually have a useful conversation.
 
Dr. Fallout,

Ugh, we are different and have varying viewsthan our euro bretheren because we haven't straight up murdered the living fuck out of ourselves for CENTURIES.

So just because whites descending from european genetic stock means we all of a sudden agree on cultural and political issues??
 
Sander,

As I said, U.S. public appetite for gun legislation heavily revolves around how it is presented. We have an ongoing and serious discussion about how mental health is a major factor in denying gun ownership. But its hard to detect conclusively who is suicidal and who isn't. And your precise type of blanket restrictions ALA guns are bad, turns people off. We haven't even mentioned the anti-gun crazies.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for much stricter regulation of weapons. However, I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me that I can't own tools that I use because some socially inept goldenspoon teenager forgot to take his Prozac.
 
Dr. Fallout,

Ugh, we are different and have varying viewsthan our euro bretheren because we haven't straight up murdered the living fuck out of ourselves for CENTURIES.

So just because whites descending from european genetic stock means we all of a sudden agree on cultural and political issues??

I know but the American culture is also a mix of European cultures! Hell so many of America's cities are copied (London and Saint Petersburg anyone?). Americans are a mix of German, English, Italian and more, ending up to form the idea of an American culture which is unique yet also in cases a copy of some European customs. You realize Europe is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more peaceful nowadays then America? And also I consider gang, mental health and gun violence as murdering the fuck of yourselves. And ignoring the direct wars America get's to with other countries such as the Middle East and Vietnam.
 
Ugh, where to begin or why bother?

We have a tendency to have disagree with everything under the sun, europeans don't. This is why it can be argued that europe, is much more peaceful and homogenous than the states. We don't believe our government should solve our problems besides basic social policies that most americans can agree on, social services like welfare (when properly done), social security, police, fire, etc.

Europe has managed to make social programs a lot bigger and make it work fairly well.

Better yet, moms home made apple pie, baseball and hotdogs. I am not talking about immigrant ethnic culture, I am talking about the dominant AMERICAN culture it lives in. Immurshun and Acshun games.

Are you seriously comparing proxy interventions and social problems to god knows how many fucking WARS that have happened in Europe? Yea, school shootings are just as fucking damaging as Napoleons continental adventure and the numerous wars foughtt between England France, Spain, Italy AKA Vatican, World Wars, etc.
 
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You forget though that the historical experience is vastily different for teh US and Europe. The last time the US had actually to deal with foreign troops in their cities is what 250 years ago? Most of the European nations had one way or another to deal with wars and conflicts directly at their door steps. There have been enough people civilans and soldierst with the experience of what a total war means and they passed this experience on to their children and sometimes grand children. There are enough parents in Gemany in their 40s and 50s which are old enough to remember what kind of wrecks their parents have been beacuse they had to go trough WW2. WW2 is still just 2 generations ago. And some places had still to deal with very real conflicts in their generation, see the Balkan states or eastern Europe. I mean Germany alone takes tons of refugees each time some shit gets real in Europe. And even I had some relatives fighting in the Yugoslavian war(s). And we have not yet even talked about what it means to have the Sovietunion as neighbour. I mean this really not in a bad way, but the typical US american has a very different view on wars compared to the typical European, simply because of a very violent historical background in Europe. You could say we learned our lessons the hard way.
 
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While there are massive differences between the USA and Europe, I think you're getting a lot of things wrong about Europe, DarkCorp. And I also think you're vastly oversimplifying what Americans think. Both regions are highly diverse with a variety of opinions and outlooks.
 
Sander,

What was it that europeans have said about their parties. Something like our liberals are right and the american right is far right. Guess that makes American far right into something much more extreme. Thats a significant difference would you not agree?

The EU doesn't have a combined euro army, strengthened as it were, to pursue global policies of intervention. You folks have, as Crni put it, lived through a bit too much war to really care about other nations. Of course your doing humanitarian concerns, but the minute fixing those concerns revolves in some kind of regime change, cultural or religious shift, you avoid it. You avoid it because youb believe its not your right to tell other people how their religion may be flawed or how their regime is the biggest factor in limiting human rights and quality of life.

If there is one thing true about Americans, we love to debate, argue, and disagree. how else would folks like Rush Limbaugh, the religious crazies, and the bleeding heart liberals, make their arguments. In this very thread, I pointed out that many factors stand in the way of universal healthcare.

1. How to deal with litigation?

This is a big issue that has far reaching implications and ripples. I could be wrong but I do not really hear about europeans suing their government, or eachother, over every little goddamned thing.

2. Insurance.

Insurance companies say that hospitals, doctors, etc, can charge whatever the fuck they want for services. $5 or $10 dollars for a tiny box of serial. Recommending every procedure and test under the sun, government/state regulation, etc.

Doctors and hospitals on the other hand, say they need to have these charges to cover the cost for constant litigation. They charge what they need to charge because of stuff like EMTALA. They recommend every procedure and test under the sun, because they fear a lawsuit if some complication is discovered down the road, that wasn't detected because certain tests or procedures weren't done.

3. Health issues.

Smokers, drinkers, folks who enjoy high risk activities, sexual re-assignment surgeries, etc, etc. We all disagree on who should, or what should get covered. In someones early quote, 'throw the baby out with the bath water'.

4. Pre-existing conditions and what Obama calls, the individual mandate.

Accepting pre-existing conditions will simply add a drastic cost to premiums as no sane company is going to take additional risk and loss of profit because of governmental regulations. We will penalise you for not buying insurance because we need people paying in to get the discounts we so often say make Obamacare so excellent.

Thats just an example and very limited one of how things are complex here.

If America is making advances into acceptance of LGBT, and racial discrimination, europe had that down pat much earlier than we did. Minus the gypsies of course.

This is not meant to put a damper on things as America has many positive qualities as well. Its more of an indication that, unlike what others may think, I am far from the average 'murrican', others think I am. I can admit Aericas mistakes instead of JUST crying anit-americanism.
 
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Every state in America is different in some way, big or small. While it can be detrimental to a country it can make for interesting travel and settings, as states are like mini-countries. Though I do have to say this, American law can be fucked up, though not usually.
 
You avoid it because youb believe its not your right to tell other people how their religion may be flawed or how their regime is the biggest factor in limiting human rights and quality of life.

No, we avoid it because we know it doesn't work. How many countries did America fix through bombing them to the stone age and attempting to transplant their democracy there?

Germany doesn't count because it did have democratic traditions before. But Korea, Vietnam, Central America, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan? Your regime change trick doesn't fucking work.
 
You avoid it because youb believe its not your right to tell other people how their religion may be flawed or how their regime is the biggest factor in limiting human rights and quality of life.

No, we avoid it because we know it doesn't work. How many countries did America fix through bombing them to the stone age and attempting to transplant their democracy there?

Germany doesn't count because it did have democratic traditions before. But Korea, Vietnam, Central America, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan? Your regime change trick doesn't fucking work.

Hear, fucking hear!
 
I have answered everything already, MANY times. You just have to actually read my posts.

And yea, humanitarian work is all good till you hit a roadblock, exactly what I said. Especially in context with my answers above.
 
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My two cents on the 2nd amendment, read the whole clause especially the second part that never gets mentioned at rallies about militias. That always sounded like state militias which we have in state police forces and states national guard units. Not this quaint notion of the citizen militia (what is this the 18th century) also rubbed me to me of the whole anti government black helicopter crowd.
 
I have answered everything already, MANY times. You just have to actually read my posts.

And yea, humanitarian work is all good till you hit a roadblock, exactly what I said. Especially in context with my answers above.

Dealing with roadblocks like in Mogadishu, eh?
 
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