Dr Fallout
Centurion
Just wanted to know, or is that a crime now?
It's again that time of the year ... or Muslim bashing!
- Thread starter Crni Vuk
- Start date
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
What I fear the most right now is extremism breeding more extremism. It's a spiral; extremist Muslims target civilian populace, which is then driven into the loving arms of extremists (the far-right in many European nations), which push for more restrictions and controls on Muslims which fuels resentment and alienation, creating more extremists, so on and so forth.
Because yes, the resentment and alienation fuels much of the terror we see in Europe. Of course, it's no excuse at all, but it's also no coincidence that most of those who perpetrate those acts served time in jail, and that so many ISIS supporters/combatants are disappointed or desperate young men. This isn't the terrorism of Al-Queda, where elaborate plans are carried out by radical ideologists with degrees from the finest Western universities. It's a group of guys with no future (real or perceived), who eat up the bullshit spewed online by said radical ideologists until they grab wahetevr killing implement they can find, and get to work. Simple plans, find a place where people are and kill them. Not as complex as the 9/11 attacks, much easier to carry out, almost as effective. The media is all over it, everyone is (obviously) shocked that it happens, and the likes of Le Pen sit there smugly telling us they got this shit all figured out and can wave the magic wand that will make all the problems go away.
And it's what ISIS and similar groups want. That's their victory. They know that killing a few dozen civilians in a country of millions isn't going to help their war efforts. It's not even a drop in a bucket, if you look at those things coldly. But if they get tens of millions of people (using France as an example) to slowly but steadily turn on the few millions of Muslims there? Their recruiting pool is enlarged, their cause looks more righteous, their enemies are fragmented, the moderate Muslims are now less willing and able to keep their extremist counterparts in check. It's the kind of victory they seek more than anything else. They can't beat the military or economic might of the West, so they use more submersive methods. Tried and true since the earliest days of conflicts, sadly.
All it takes is a few terrorists in the tens of thousands of immigrants/refugees/sons of the above that arrive in Europe.
I'm not saying I know the solution. I doubt anybody does. This is a crisis that has its roots in higly complex geopolitics outside of the control of most European nations, yet they pay the price of all the power-mongering that happens in the Middle-East. And so long as the war in Syria and Irak continues and Erdogan is happily sending all the refugees he can into Europe, it's going to be solved I'm afraid. It's all a gigantic shit-show, and Europe is starting to feel th aftershocks of the virtual earthquake that has shaken the Middle East in modern times.
Because yes, the resentment and alienation fuels much of the terror we see in Europe. Of course, it's no excuse at all, but it's also no coincidence that most of those who perpetrate those acts served time in jail, and that so many ISIS supporters/combatants are disappointed or desperate young men. This isn't the terrorism of Al-Queda, where elaborate plans are carried out by radical ideologists with degrees from the finest Western universities. It's a group of guys with no future (real or perceived), who eat up the bullshit spewed online by said radical ideologists until they grab wahetevr killing implement they can find, and get to work. Simple plans, find a place where people are and kill them. Not as complex as the 9/11 attacks, much easier to carry out, almost as effective. The media is all over it, everyone is (obviously) shocked that it happens, and the likes of Le Pen sit there smugly telling us they got this shit all figured out and can wave the magic wand that will make all the problems go away.
And it's what ISIS and similar groups want. That's their victory. They know that killing a few dozen civilians in a country of millions isn't going to help their war efforts. It's not even a drop in a bucket, if you look at those things coldly. But if they get tens of millions of people (using France as an example) to slowly but steadily turn on the few millions of Muslims there? Their recruiting pool is enlarged, their cause looks more righteous, their enemies are fragmented, the moderate Muslims are now less willing and able to keep their extremist counterparts in check. It's the kind of victory they seek more than anything else. They can't beat the military or economic might of the West, so they use more submersive methods. Tried and true since the earliest days of conflicts, sadly.
All it takes is a few terrorists in the tens of thousands of immigrants/refugees/sons of the above that arrive in Europe.
I'm not saying I know the solution. I doubt anybody does. This is a crisis that has its roots in higly complex geopolitics outside of the control of most European nations, yet they pay the price of all the power-mongering that happens in the Middle-East. And so long as the war in Syria and Irak continues and Erdogan is happily sending all the refugees he can into Europe, it's going to be solved I'm afraid. It's all a gigantic shit-show, and Europe is starting to feel th aftershocks of the virtual earthquake that has shaken the Middle East in modern times.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Honestly, I doubt how fanatically Muslim the leaders of ISIS and various other terrorist groups are when they're swimming in sex slaves, money and power. I can't prove that they're not fanatics, but the rewards they reap seem to show that you don't need to believe as a motive.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Oh, absolutely. I believe militant Islamism is a means to an end for most of the head honchos of those movements. The end is, of course, power. For them, perhaps for their religion or their people (or what they consider their people), but in the end, power.
It's what makes them attractive to some, too. Imagine you're some poor, Muslim-descended shmuck in a Parisian banlieue. You're viewed with suspicion by most, getting a job is factually harder than if you have a ''proper'' French name, most of the paths that you see available to you are in the lowest paying jobs or petty criminality.
Enters a group that tells you that you can fight for a higher purpose and channel all that pent-up aggression, promising rewards in the afterlife alongside like-minded comrades that respect you, and that they will give you a gun, a woman (or women) and the right to do whatever the hell you please so long as it's done in the name of old Allah. That could be mighty persuasive to the right sort of people.
Not that I'm condoning or excusing what these guys do, absolutely not. But there's a reason ISIS and its ilk took off, and it's not just because ''muh evul Moslems''.
It's what fucks up the Middle East the most, it's a clash of power blocs. On one side, USA and its quasi client states (Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia). On the other, Russia and/or Iran and their growing influence. On the sidelines, ISIS and similar groups. And in the middle, the people who get killed, since of course innocents always suffer the most in war. So many get out of Dodge, towards the place they think will provide a safe haven. But reality is more complicated than that, sadly.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
In fact, the leaders of these terrorist groups MAY have chosen Islam because of how widespread it is in the Middle East, which thanks to the chaos there is a wonderful place to take power relatively easily.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Quick glance at the history books shows it to be par the course during the golden age of Islam. you had an army of tribal raiders just conquer and/or pillage from two great empires and they found themselves awash in sex slaves, money and power.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
And culture and science and civilization and law... but lets ignore that.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Yeah but those things aren't as cool as sex slaves, money and power. that is why they ignore them.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
But they didn't... in comparison to Christian Europe, Islam during it's Golden Age was pretty advanced.
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Because I don't see uncontrolled migration with millions of random foreigners entering Schengen area and marching towards Berlin whenever they wish as a safe, viable, and sustainable solution. Perhaps we should cancel the deal with Turkey, open Balkanian route again, and let those millions kept at bay just storming Bavaria as before.
TheGM
The voice of reason
I'm talking about ISIS. you are talking about...medieval Europe for some reason
What's frustrating is that none of this helps.
Humanity is an animal. Try to bang on the chimpanzee glass divider, for then to rationally explain to them why they should calm down.
Humanity goes into tension, and the tension must be released. This is not just random naturalness either, it is guided and fueled on purpose (many of you will now consider the following to be UNTHINKABLE, as in, pure conspiracy fabrication) - the purpose being the continuation of a daily weapons production.
Not just small arms, but large scale machinery, design and mass production, smart missiles, you name it. It's spent - it's remade - rebought, resold, rebombed.
(Then you have the bonus of entire countries to rebuild - rebuy)
Let's pretend that humanity, as we know it, could never be so cynical as to perpetrate perpetual war for the sake of money. Surely, we don't value money enough for people to have to die, right?
So, as long as it's important, for somebody, that this "crisis" continue gaining momentum, it will keep gaining momentum. A strategy that could work to flare shit up would be to engage in a relentless campaign of unfair slaughter of civilians. What, where? Oh, anywhere. No point in pointing out who dies first, but a LOT of innocent people die.
Some may die for "stability in the Middle East", others for the "acceleration of the holy war" the mujis are drooling after
Either way, it doesn't matter beyond you, yes you, finding out if you're gonna be in the middle of it in a few years from now, when it really kicks off. I'm gonna bet on a high level assasination, a la World War 1! Not because I find it particularily likely, but because it's been a while since we had a good assasination-based war
Since Norway's gonna be allied with US in this, and we don't have any Atlantic enemies, I'm considering myself pretty safe. Unless the Ruskis decide to invade Finnmark. Then I might have to go hang with grandma in Spain.
So, when the war breaks out, where will you go? Discuss!
Humanity is an animal. Try to bang on the chimpanzee glass divider, for then to rationally explain to them why they should calm down.
Humanity goes into tension, and the tension must be released. This is not just random naturalness either, it is guided and fueled on purpose (many of you will now consider the following to be UNTHINKABLE, as in, pure conspiracy fabrication) - the purpose being the continuation of a daily weapons production.
Not just small arms, but large scale machinery, design and mass production, smart missiles, you name it. It's spent - it's remade - rebought, resold, rebombed.
(Then you have the bonus of entire countries to rebuild - rebuy)
Let's pretend that humanity, as we know it, could never be so cynical as to perpetrate perpetual war for the sake of money. Surely, we don't value money enough for people to have to die, right?
So, as long as it's important, for somebody, that this "crisis" continue gaining momentum, it will keep gaining momentum. A strategy that could work to flare shit up would be to engage in a relentless campaign of unfair slaughter of civilians. What, where? Oh, anywhere. No point in pointing out who dies first, but a LOT of innocent people die.
Some may die for "stability in the Middle East", others for the "acceleration of the holy war" the mujis are drooling after
Either way, it doesn't matter beyond you, yes you, finding out if you're gonna be in the middle of it in a few years from now, when it really kicks off. I'm gonna bet on a high level assasination, a la World War 1! Not because I find it particularily likely, but because it's been a while since we had a good assasination-based war
Since Norway's gonna be allied with US in this, and we don't have any Atlantic enemies, I'm considering myself pretty safe. Unless the Ruskis decide to invade Finnmark. Then I might have to go hang with grandma in Spain.
So, when the war breaks out, where will you go? Discuss!
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Bull. Shit.I'm talking about ISIS. you are talking about...medieval Europe for some reason
Golden Age of Islam was during the medieval age, and the idea of tribal raiders leaving the desert to beat several great empires is unique to the dark ages and medieval ages.
ISIS are emulating "the golden age" right now, maybe that is what.. either of you refer to?
They are - according to their own "ethos", reconquering medieval territories held by Muslim leaders - for then to continue where they dropped off - as in, conquer the entire planet. They have to drag themselves out past Syria first though
They are - according to their own "ethos", reconquering medieval territories held by Muslim leaders - for then to continue where they dropped off - as in, conquer the entire planet. They have to drag themselves out past Syria first though
TheGM
The voice of reason
The other post, sprinkles.
Yeah the armies of Islam came ridding out of the Arabian Peninsula conquering Sassanid Persia and Middle-East and North African holdings of The Byzantines. They found themselves awash in slaves, money, power. ISIS wants to recreate that golden age but they only focus on certain aspects of it.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I think that Turkish president is playing this islamistic pride card too, except he's doing it much smarter than ISIS, non-violent way. He openly celebrate and keep reminding his followers of great Ottoman empire, when Turkish sultan occupied huge territories, including the capital city and a large part of Hungary for some 150 years in 16. and 17. century.
Mr Fish
Slippy sloppy, The
Thoughts?
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MutantScalper
Dogmeat
"Being gay in Sweden"
Funny though. I watched 18 seconds of that vid and guy (gay guy?) starts to talk about "Mahmud". This leads me to think that he's one of those anti-Muslim/Islam/Arab/folks with dark skin tone - folks.
I doubt that guy mentions the largest immigrant group in Sweden, the Finns. Finns have been immigrating to Sweden since time immemorial and there was an influx in the early seventies due to extremely high unemployment in Finland (still have it). About 100 000 unemployed Finns went to Sweden to work in Volvo auto industry etc. They brought their 'ways' with them, which is hard drinking and subsequent anti-social behaviour.
Swedes, and other Scandinavian countries which all speak more or less the same language are similar in other ways, all have a sort of respect of Finns. Finns speak a completely different language and are closer to Estonians and Hungarians (Fenno-Ugric language family). The Finns who immigrated to Stockholm were referred to as "guerillas of Slussen", an area in Stockholm. A Finn might be drunk and he also probably has a knife so, better be careful. Whenever a Finnish immigrant or tourist or visitor, say, stabs a Swede or two to death, it's like, a big deal in the media etc.
When there is a ice hockey game between Sweden and Finland, the Swedish fans shout all kinds of things at Finns. "Drunks", "hillbillies", etc. Finns only have one insult for the Swedes, "gays", except they use a much more derogatory word. So, if that guy wants to cover the whole picture of anti-Swede/anti-gay sentiment among the immigrants to Sweden but excludes the Finns, I don't think I'm going to believe anything he says.
Funny though. I watched 18 seconds of that vid and guy (gay guy?) starts to talk about "Mahmud". This leads me to think that he's one of those anti-Muslim/Islam/Arab/folks with dark skin tone - folks.
I doubt that guy mentions the largest immigrant group in Sweden, the Finns. Finns have been immigrating to Sweden since time immemorial and there was an influx in the early seventies due to extremely high unemployment in Finland (still have it). About 100 000 unemployed Finns went to Sweden to work in Volvo auto industry etc. They brought their 'ways' with them, which is hard drinking and subsequent anti-social behaviour.
Swedes, and other Scandinavian countries which all speak more or less the same language are similar in other ways, all have a sort of respect of Finns. Finns speak a completely different language and are closer to Estonians and Hungarians (Fenno-Ugric language family). The Finns who immigrated to Stockholm were referred to as "guerillas of Slussen", an area in Stockholm. A Finn might be drunk and he also probably has a knife so, better be careful. Whenever a Finnish immigrant or tourist or visitor, say, stabs a Swede or two to death, it's like, a big deal in the media etc.
When there is a ice hockey game between Sweden and Finland, the Swedish fans shout all kinds of things at Finns. "Drunks", "hillbillies", etc. Finns only have one insult for the Swedes, "gays", except they use a much more derogatory word. So, if that guy wants to cover the whole picture of anti-Swede/anti-gay sentiment among the immigrants to Sweden but excludes the Finns, I don't think I'm going to believe anything he says.
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That most of what he's saying is bullshit ... and that I don't even know where to start. It's all very polemic but not in a way where the intention is to start a debate. But more in, see! We told you they are all assholes! Now get rid of them! Which is something that I never like, be it from the left or right. Just to say this, so it is out of the window. I am not the kind of guy who's believing in this opinion that we are getting only nice people here. Since I am now working with refugees, we have teenagers in the group that don't give a fuck about anything, the opinion of one particular, prison in Germany is still better then freedom in Albania. But most of them are simply normal teenagers.
The point is, Germany is still here. Munich is as nice like ever. And it is a problem that we have to deal with one way or another, because people will come as long as Africa and the middle east continue to be shit holes. And it seems like it won't get better, but actually worse. Who knows, if the predictions of global warming are true in 70-100 years there might be 100 milions on the way to Europe, and not just from Africa, but Greece, Spain and Italy as a whole might move to the north as well.