Doesn't this not matter so much now because of what has been said that there are no negative consequences for your dialogue options? That if you make a mistake you can easily come back and try again/different dialogue choice? I am pretty sure I remember reading something very close to that about this new game, but never remember hearing anything about that with Fallout 3. I sure don't approve of you say being able to piss someone off with your dialogue choice and then coming back right quick or even awhile later and doing it over with a totally different response as if the prior never happened. In not having false options is a good idea, but like it was said earlier in this thread, it can be done well.
J.E. Sawyer on key dialogue writing concepts
- Thread starter Sander
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Doesn't this not matter so much now because of what has been said that there are no negative consequences for your dialogue options? That if you make a mistake you can easily come back and try again/different dialogue choice? I am pretty sure I remember reading something very close to that about this new game, but never remember hearing anything about that with Fallout 3. I sure don't approve of you say being able to piss someone off with your dialogue choice and then coming back right quick or even awhile later and doing it over with a totally different response as if the prior never happened. In not having false options is a good idea, but like it was said earlier in this thread, it can be done well.
alec said:
For professional and good amateur writers, sure.
I'm not sure videogame dialogues are usually written by professional writers. Sometimes they're not on par with good amateurs, either.
As for the false options thing, i think he's referring more to situations like this:
-Fetch me the Vorpal McGuffin Of Slaying, please.
-[Strength] I can fetch it, as i am very strong.
-[Perception] I think i saw it somewhere, off i go
-[Charisma] Anything for you, o mighty NPC.
-[Intelligence] Aha! That must be the McGuffin that Slays and it is Vorpal. Got it. I'm on my way.
-[Agility] I'll fetch it pronto before you can say "fedex".
-Yes
-Yes, for a price
-No
-*Attack him*
While i did not like the ME-System, I think to have the choice for saying the same thing in different ways is actually a good thing. I don’t see them as "fake" choices but as a way to better express the character you are playing. In ME you could play as a hardline, no-nonsense, direct mankind-fan or a tolerant, moderate and polite alien-befriender. I think its good that those stances are represented by dialogue-options, even if they lead to the same result. In such a case the dialogue isnt about information-gathering but about character-defining. Its not only important what you say, but how you say it. If im playing an impolite guy I would like to express that in game. I'm still getting a headache when I think of that famous conversation with 3dog wich, according to the dialogue, was about my dear dad whom I missed soo badly and would do anything to find again. While in fact my character was looking for the bugger with the intention to discuss cild-care, gross stupidity and the fact that he left me in a vault full of retards who wanted to kill me. My character intended to relief his frustration and disapointment by executing the dad after giving him a good seeing-to. Instead I found myself choking on all the words, emotions and worldwievs that sorry excuse for a RPG tried to put in my mouth.
God, that was such an awful experience I still get carried away complaining about it. Anyway….
I am pleased to see that Obsidian has put up those rules. There might be some disagreement over them, different wiewpoints with resulting discussion (like here on the forums) but that’s no problem. I am sure that the writer-chaps can break, bend or ignore the rules as long as they can give a reason for it. Rules exist so you think about it before you break them.
God, that was such an awful experience I still get carried away complaining about it. Anyway….
I am pleased to see that Obsidian has put up those rules. There might be some disagreement over them, different wiewpoints with resulting discussion (like here on the forums) but that’s no problem. I am sure that the writer-chaps can break, bend or ignore the rules as long as they can give a reason for it. Rules exist so you think about it before you break them.
13pm
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Arden said:
If that leads to different outcomes, yes, it has rights to exist. In ME you at least get renegade/paragon points. But that's a poor idea. In Dragon Age you get nothing, just the same straitforward outcome that "drives the story".
Morbus said:
if I am thinking about all the kind of hardware we have today particularly compared to the time we all played Fallout 1/2 ... I am still surprised about the way how dialogues work today. I mean when I remember how I thought about the future in the past I am cant believe that we do not see in modern RPGs a full use of the hardware for the dialogues as well and not just visuals.
Having algorithms in place that simulate NPCs behaviour in a non-linear not entirely scripted way based on some eventual human study and research in combination with advanced chat bot that allow REAL conversations with NPCs based not just on some of the pre-scribted answers but also using your own words to form a "conversation" of some sort and also considering your past actions and even taking either your infamy or reputation in to acount.
Ah ... one can still dream ... though what we get are "mass effect" and "fallout 3" which are seen as the epidome of RPG dialogues even though when they seem to have a lot more limits then Fallout 1 ...
Hey want to see Oblivions dialogues ?jero cvmi said:
-Fetch me the McElderscroll Of what ever, please.
-Yes
-*Attack him* ~ NPC is unconscious
Morbus
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Writing is something that's very VERY hard to synthesize. Hell, it's something that's hard to master for most people just when doing on our own, let alone synthesize a system where it is generated on the fly. AI is still very far away in that respect. I don't think we'll se much progress in dialog, specially when writing isn't even taken seriously in the games industry. Lol, it's hardly taken seriously elsewhere, let alone in the games industry.Crni Vuk said:
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
im pretty sure his point is this:
1) can i see your wares?
2) show me your shit scum shopkeeper!
3) could you please let me peruse your high quality wares that i have heard have the most reasonable prices in the area?
it should not end up with:
"here are my wares" and open the shop menu...
he would have a seprate response for all 3, and maybe even a price modifier either positive or negative for the player due to how he approached the vendor.
1) can i see your wares?
2) show me your shit scum shopkeeper!
3) could you please let me peruse your high quality wares that i have heard have the most reasonable prices in the area?
it should not end up with:
"here are my wares" and open the shop menu...
he would have a seprate response for all 3, and maybe even a price modifier either positive or negative for the player due to how he approached the vendor.
Crni Vuk said:
Try Facade: http://interactivestory.net/
Yes, we're still quite far away from it, but maybe some day...
Morbus
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Looks interesting. But I can't really see the point of something like that... I mean, right now, today, as things are.
And then we have to take into consideration how to jump past the barrier of the immediate lulz that 95% of players will crash into right there and then. If I had a game like that, I'd just start saying weird things, just to see how far I could push it. The game, I mean. It's just what we all, at least once in our lives, have done in some dream we've had, where we realize it's a dream and we're free from the bounds of consequences... That's what games like GTA are, and it took them like 7 games to get from GTA to GTA4 and impose a very concise and definite storyline.
And then we have to take into consideration how to jump past the barrier of the immediate lulz that 95% of players will crash into right there and then. If I had a game like that, I'd just start saying weird things, just to see how far I could push it. The game, I mean. It's just what we all, at least once in our lives, have done in some dream we've had, where we realize it's a dream and we're free from the bounds of consequences... That's what games like GTA are, and it took them like 7 games to get from GTA to GTA4 and impose a very concise and definite storyline.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
draeke said:
seemed to be some confusion and discussion as to what he meant by that, and thats what i think he meant.
They've said that you won't be penalized for failing a skill check in dialog. That doesn't mean that there won't be consequences for choosing different dialog options. Whether you can "make a mistake" in dialog is probably a bit of a subjective judgment. They probably will try to avoid giving players that feeling.Goweigus said:
scypior said:
This is quite interesting Sir!
From what I saw in these videos (there are far more
) they seem to use keywords of the player / npc answer to make the dialogue engine react - and even try to figure out the "mood" of the participating instances. But even with a system like that - you still need to prepare the content. If the engine isn't prepared for the topics the player wants to discuss - then it is lost (see here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx20hiISwRQ&NR=1) Still - even combining this approach with static player answers would bring dialogues to the next level. Just watching the AI entities interacting with each other is great.
Morbus said:
If some chat or forum bots can almost trick people in "usual" conversations and I heard a lot even give their credit card informations to such bots in MSN ... why not use the algorithms of those bots for a RPG generating some kind of interaction. You could still keep scripted dialogues for more advanced characters and important key NPCs really have no urge to get in usual conversations with the vilain or something but why not with the usual town folks or such things ? Who knows what might be possible if they REALY would try once to push the hardware we have in our PCs to the limit in relation with dialogues and NPC behavoiur.
As said I was just more or less "dreaming". Its anyway just wishfull thinking as long either developers think that all those kidz out there can only be pleased with fully voiced dialogues or as long those kidz think that are the only games they should buy ... we will not see any real progress in the dialogues. I even think we might see more stuff like in Oblivoin called "dialogues" in the future ... since I heard that already there a lot still complained they had to much to read ...
jero cvmi said:
Oh, imagine that!!!!
Conversation with Fake Kirk said: